Thread: You, the Dream Character

Well... you have a lackey or two... I thought we were tag teaming?

Actually though, I don't back him up only in the threads where you assume he attacks you. This makes the second time, and it's just that I agree with him. As I do with others especially in the other thread we're both speaking about. It's not only his idea(s) I agree with.

I think Sageous here was reaching with his attempt to parrot back what you thought you meant. Although I've noticed others seem to say things you think more clearly than you do... and that's ok too. I don't actually mind that at all.

I should probably stop agreeing with Mzzkc... and formulate my own ideas and opinions on the matter, right? Except, I think when people say things that make sense, they should be supported. It doesn't mean they need it, want it, or deserve it. It simply means I like what they have to say and in the manner they say it. I've supported other people in the same way too... not only him.

That and the photographic memory was my thing. It was somewhat of a joke.

But seriously though, not once has he made a personal attack on you or anyone for that matter. I've seen a handful of people make various personal remarks and listen, all of this, isn't personal. The happy faces are silly when combined with insults, the insults are unnecessary.

We're people sitting at a computer, discussing ideas. As such, there is some expectation of maturity and logic we can only hope others have as well. Granted, personally I admit I get a little carried away when I see something just OMG illogical. However I haven't called anyone stupid, little, or made others feel like they are worth less than I am. I even think you're pretty nifty too, Littlezoe, just in a different way.

Originally Posted by Kaomea

Well... you have a lackey or two... I thought we were tag teaming?

I have no idea what's that supposed to mean...

Originally Posted by Kaomea

Actually though, I don't back him up only in the threads where you assume he attacks you. This makes the second time, and it's just that I agree with him. As I do with others especially in the other thread we're both speaking about. It's not only his idea(s) I agree with.

To me it seems like you join in the attack against me... but it's okay, nobody has to like everyone, but i would've liked to keep this thread without hating on eachother.

Originally Posted by Kaomea

I think Sageous here was reaching with his attempt to parrot back what you thought you meant. Although I've noticed others seem to say things you think more clearly than you do... and that's ok too. I don't actually mind that at all.

You know, when english isn't your first language, it takes more effort to form your sentences, especially if you are writing a long reply to someone.
If you would know another language then you would understand

Originally Posted by Kaomea

But seriously though, not once has he made a personal attack on you or anyone for that matter. I've seen a handful of people make various personal remarks and listen, all of this, isn't personal. The happy faces are silly when combined with insults, the insults are unnecessary.

There is certainly personal attacks behind this... he is mad at me ever since i first posted in a thread of his, he just can't get over it.
As for my insults, if someone insults me, then i won't just take it like that. It's that simple.

Originally Posted by Kaomea

We're people sitting at a computer, discussing ideas. As such, there is some expectation of maturity and logic we can only hope others have as well. Granted, personally I admit I get a little carried away when I see something just OMG illogical. However I haven't called anyone stupid, little, or made others feel like they are worth less than I am. I even think you're pretty nifty too, Littlezoe, just in a different way.

I don't see how my idea were less logical than his, but whatever...

As for your last sentence... that shows exactly the opposite of what you said about not trying to make others seem less worthy than you. But then again, i might've just misunderstood it...

I have no idea what's that supposed to mean...

Sorry, that was meant to be humorous.

You know, when english isn't your first language, it takes more effort to form your sentences, especially if you are writing a long reply to someone.
If you would know another language then you would understand

True, it can take more effort to express yourself in a secondary language. I speak three other languages, French, Hawaiian, and American Sign Language all equally bad. One of the neat things I've learned is to observe each culture before trying to impart any knowledge into them... sorta neat like that.

As for your last sentence... that shows exactly the opposite of what you said about not trying to make others seem less worthy than you. But then again, i might've just misunderstood it...

It could be seen that way. Or it could be seen as an attempt to communicate with you.

I have to say kaomea, I usually like most of your post. But you are bringing this out a bit too far. I think a few people on here have been rude. Let's just forget what has been said and continue the actual discussion.

Thanks!

Thank you and I appreciate the comment, dakotahnok. It's just that I'm not bringing it too far out. I have questions and concerns.... and want to probe the mind behind the words.

Imagine, if when we ask others questions... they give them serious consideration. Sometimes the greatest influences in my life have been people who've challenged my own way of thinking. I'm doing that now too, considering how her words hold value to her... I don't take things too far unless I think it would be helpful... to someone... might not be the person I push against but there are always other people around who might benefit from it.

I also get that it's important to get along and respect each others ideas. I have absolutely no problem going that route too. Except I want to learn something, maybe even teach something... or at least influence something. Others might not have the same ideals in mind but sometimes it's important to do what's right for you.

I'm sorry if anything I said offends you. Or Littlezoe for that matter. Sometimes though, stuff happens. It doesn't mean I like anyone less when I question them or their methods. It simply means I wish to understand them better.

I want to read some essays and research on faces appearing in your dream and how much details can we actually remember from a glance to make a stranger our DC but I don't know where to start. Any help?

But I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a decent reconstruction of our face in a stranger's dream.

Originally Posted by Kaomea

Well... you have a lackey or two... I thought we were tag teaming?

I think Sageous here was reaching with his attempt to parrot back what you thought you meant. Although I've noticed others seem to say things you think more clearly than you do... and that's ok too. I don't actually mind that at all.

I am not a Lackey. Kaomea. I posted in an attempt to get the thread back on course and away from the sophomoric, bickering argument to which you otherwise thoughtful folks have reduced this thread.

I wasn't defending Littlezoe. I was trying to restore the thread to the theme of its OP (whoever made it), and away from this spewing fountain of nonsense that had nothing to do with the OP. I obviously failed.

Please don't drag me into your petty (and apparently long-running) squabbles.

A quick rejoiner.

Originally Posted by dakotahnok

@mzzkc why do you try to argue in every single thread? Why can't you just let things go? You really try too hard to prove other people wrong. Say your piece and move on. Debate a little, but don't be rude. And stop cramming your thoughts down other peoples throat. /enddumbrant

Because I give a shit about accuracy, correctness, and truth?

Which I guess is something to look down on in today's world, yeah?

But it's wonderful to know you're doing your part for the greater good, dakotahnok! The council won't be sacrificing you to the harvest gods, nosiree.

But let's be realistic. If no one dissented here, the entire thread would fill up with same post, ad nauseum. I'd rather this forum be filled with interesting, worthwhile discussion, but that's a two-way street.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

I know that you are mad at me ever since we first argued on here, but i don't post in your threads just for the sake of arguing, it would be nice if you would keep youself to that too.

Ad hominem.

I'm not attacking you.

I'm questioning the validity of the ideas you've presented.

What's more, you can't rightfully claim the moral high-ground here, because you do the same thing to BD folk all the time. Anyone who doesn't believe that can verify it by looking through her on-topic post history.

Aside: I believe you might be projecting, here, as I hold no ill will toward you, nor am I quick to anger or even a person who holds grudges.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

Where did you prove any evidence of YOUR claims? I didn't see them anywhere.

Burden of proof, etc., etc. You know the drill.

Also, did you even look? What databases and peer-reviewed articles did you scour to reach this conclusion?

Originally Posted by littlezoe

Tell me, why would it be so hard to imagine that your subconscious would use a whole face that you've seen during the day?

Because:

1 - There is no such thing as the "subconscious." (please define you terms)

2 - Due to the way memory has been shown to work, brief, unimportant, unrehearsed, sensory input will vanish completely within moments. (source; If you're interested in more recent research/models that account for some of the discrepancies in Atkinson and Shiffrin's proposal, you can look into the Temporal Context Model.)

3 - Recall is often built via association (TCM), and association has been observed and independently determined to be the driving factor behind dream formation by many of the LDing communities top minds.

It then follows that only the faces of friends, relatives, coworkers, acquaintances, or those you've spent time/interacted with in a meaningful way will have any chance of showing up in dreams, and even then you aren't guaranteed a close match.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

You bring up the photographic memory, but that's not even the point here.

Clear evidence you're not reading/comprehending my posts or following the thread.

I purposefully left out any mention of photographic memory in the post you quoted because it was obviously a straw man.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

But yeah, if you just want to troll my threads, then i advise to stop, little guy

Ad hominem.

Aside: The irony here is hilarious, if anyone else caught it. Don't know if it was intentional, but props if it was. ^.^

Originally Posted by littlezoe

That's what you think wrong I don't claim that my ways are the only way.

Contradiction.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

I see that you like to keep the back of this Mskcsks guy in every single thread where he attacks me, but this is getting boring.

Aside: I apologize for boring you with thoughtful discussion. But don't worry, I'll let you go back to playing make-believe soon enough.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

I made this thread to start a friendly conversation about this whole "DCs using your look" thing and not to start arguing over stupid things.

Ad hominem.

Also, contradiction in convictions:

You mean just like that Djinn guy did. Or that dude who cracked a dirty joke.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

There is certainly personal attacks behind this... he is mad at me ever since i first posted in a thread of his, he just can't get over it.

Ad hominem.

Aside: You're projecting again. Do you really hate the part of you that likes to debate that much?

Originally Posted by littlezoe

As for my insults, if someone insults me, then i won't just take it like that. It's that simple.

Pro tip #1: Look at things objectively and try not to make debates personal.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

I don't see how my idea were less logical than his, but whatever...

Pro tip #2: Address the arguments presented to you. Falling into logical fallacies doesn't help your case.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

As for your last sentence... that shows exactly the opposite of what you said about not trying to make others seem less worthy than you. But then again, i might've just misunderstood it...

Correct approach, but as you pointed out this was likely a misunderstanding caused by turn of phrase. Kaomea appears to mean that she likes you, but not in the same ways that she likes me. It's like saying "I enjoy Show A because of the rich and complex characters, but I also enjoy Show B because the writing is brilliant and often hilarious."

Pro tip #3: Don't attack obvious straw men, if you can avoid it.


Finally, as I did in a previous thread, this is an explicit offer to hold a discussion. I've presented my arguments, explicitly clarified them, and provided sources where relevant. You can either do the same, or continue to make ad hominem attacks.

Originally Posted by Carrot

I want to read some essays and research on faces appearing in your dream and how much details can we actually remember from a glance to make a stranger our DC but I don't know where to start. Any help?

I'd love to help you with that, in fact I'd love to see some of that myself, but I can't imagine there's been a way to test how accurate images in dreams are. We'll have to wait until they find a way of exporting our dreams to some sort of video player, like in Paprika

What I do know about somewhat is what we learnt about in A level psychology. We did a ton on cognitive psychology, which involved remembering and forgetting. The recurring theme (which you'd no doubt guess yourself) is that the more meaningful something is, the more likely you are to remember it. The phenomenon of 'flashbulb memory' was particularly interesting, which is where some things just stick in your memory no matter how seemingly insignificant is, a common example being what exactly you were doing when the Twin Towers fell. Obviously this is a hugely significant memory for a lot of people, and it tends to strengthen the memories of everything personally associated with that event.

Relating it to this thread I'd say there's a chance that if you only glanced a person once in your whole life, but that moment happened to have a particularly significant impact on your, you'd remember that person very, very well.

Originally Posted by moSh

Relating it to this thread I'd say there's a chance that if you only glanced a person once in your whole life, but that moment happened to have a particularly significant impact on your, you'd remember that person very, very well.

You are talking about memories that you can access... But i'm sure there are memories stored that you can't directly access, but in dreams they can still show up. Hence why you might be able to re-experience moments from your childhood in dreams that you might've fully forgot already, althrough it's still somewhere in your memory.

Originally Posted by Carrot

I want to read some essays and research on faces appearing in your dream and how much details can we actually remember from a glance to make a stranger our DC but I don't know where to start. Any help?

Check out the links posted by fhgshfdg and myself. Also, look for relevant papers published by the IASD.

Finally, try not to overly restrict your search parameters. In other words, don't look exclusively for dream related content, as much of the information you're looking for can be deduced by studying perception and memory in addition to dream formation and the like.

Originally Posted by Carrot

But I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a decent reconstruction of our face in a stranger's dream.

That's excellent. You shouldn't rule out any possibilities until you've carefully weighed all the evidence that exists. =)

Originally Posted by littlezoe

You are talking about memories that you can access... But i'm sure there are memories stored that you can't directly access, but in dreams they can still show up. Hence why you might be able to re-experience moments from your childhood in dreams that you might've fully forgot already, althrough it's still somewhere in your memory.

Why are you positive this is the case?

Originally Posted by littlezoe

You are talking about memories that you can access... But i'm sure there are memories stored that you can't directly access, but in dreams they can still show up. Hence why you might be able to re-experience moments from your childhood in dreams that you might've fully forgot already, althrough it's still somewhere in your memory.

Sorry, yes, I meant both accessible and consciously-inaccessible memories but failed to make that explicit.

Originally Posted by moSh

Sorry, yes, I meant both accessible and consciously-inaccessible memories but failed to make that explicit.

So you mean even the consciously inaccessible memories would work that way?

Almost definitely, I'd wager that your unconscious mind would find semantic links in your experiences even more than your conscious mind.

I think that's what I think anyway, I'm finding it hard to get my head around at present. I'm having quite a slow day.

Originally Posted by moSh

Almost definitely, I'd wager that your unconscious mind would find semantic links in your experiences even more than your conscious mind.

I think that's what I think anyway, I'm finding it hard to get my head around at present. I'm having quite a slow day.

Well, at least that's more believable when you say it a way that your comment is not filled with insults

Anyway... i keep the possibility that it might work that way, but i believe that even if you only seen a random person once, the consciously inaccessible memory could still store that person's image.... but i guess this would be hard to test...

Originally Posted by fhgshfdg

Reminds of the this video I happened upon a month or two ago:



RESEARCH | MATTHEW B. THOMPSON

Very interesting and definitely relevant.

Oh holy. The faces were creeping me out as I stared at the cross in the middle. Am I doing it right?

Originally Posted by moSh

I'd love to help you with that, in fact I'd love to see some of that myself, but I can't imagine there's been a way to test how accurate images in dreams are. We'll have to wait until they find a way of exporting our dreams to some sort of video player, like in Paprika

What I do know about somewhat is what we learnt about in A level psychology. We did a ton on cognitive psychology, which involved remembering and forgetting. The recurring theme (which you'd no doubt guess yourself) is that the more meaningful something is, the more likely you are to remember it. The phenomenon of 'flashbulb memory' was particularly interesting, which is where some things just stick in your memory no matter how seemingly insignificant is, a common example being what exactly you were doing when the Twin Towers fell. Obviously this is a hugely significant memory for a lot of people, and it tends to strengthen the memories of everything personally associated with that event.

Relating it to this thread I'd say there's a chance that if you only glanced a person once in your whole life, but that moment happened to have a particularly significant impact on your, you'd remember that person very, very well.

Oh yes, what was I thinking. I'm a little tired too. There's no way to test vividness in your dream since it is hugely dependent on your recall. Even if someone did a test on their dreams and attempt to recall facial features in each dreams, I don't think many will believe the test results because there's no visual evidence for them to see.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

2 - Due to the way memory has been shown to work, brief, unimportant, unrehearsed, sensory input will vanish completely within moments. (source; If you're interested in more recent research/models that account for some of the discrepancy in Atkinson and Shiffrin's proposal, you can look into the Temporal Context Model.)

Your source link led me to an interesting thought about the power of our brains. Our mind actually had the power to reconstruct a face (with bits and pieces of memories here and there) without it being distorted. It's able to blend in different parts of each features to form a face. I admit most of the faces I see in my dreams are blurred but there's no abnormalities with them because I could sense it's normal otherwise I would have reacted loudly in my dreams. On one incident, I even managed to remember the facial features of a boy in my dream rather clearly and the features looked normal too.

Originally Posted by Carrot

Your source link led me to an interesting thought about the power of our brains. Our mind actually had the power to reconstruct a face (with bits and pieces of memories here and there) without it being distorted. It's able to blend in different parts of each features to form a face. I admit most of the faces I see in my dreams are blurred but there's no abnormalities with them because I could sense it's normal otherwise I would have reacted loudly in my dreams. On one incident, I even managed to remember the facial features of a boy in my dream rather clearly and the features looked normal too.

That relates to another bit of A level psychology we looked at, that I almost put in my earlier post, called 'reconstructive memory'. All the studies we looked at showed the incredible (though often misleading) way in which our mind's fill in the gaps in our memory with whatever seems most logical. This gives us 'false memories', where our mind assumes information based on previously built 'schemas' (archives of compiled data which are similar in some way). Unfortunately, this is often inaccurate, and in extreme cases can lead to negative stereotyping: one study showed participants a picture of one man holding another at the end of a knife, but only for a very brief time. The results showed that the majority of the participants 'remembered' the assailant to be black and the victim white, despite it actually being the other way round.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

Anyway... i keep the possibility that it might work that way, but i believe that even if you only seen a random person once, the consciously inaccessible memory could still store that person's image.... but i guess this would be hard to test...

So the entirety of your argument is based on faith, then?

You don't have to respond, I just want you to be aware of the possibility that you have no basis for your argument outside of belief.

I am glad that there's an actual discussion going on now, and that you've calmly responded to my questions, albeit indirectly.

@Carrot: There's a ton of interesting research out there on human face recognition and reconstruction. The big points discussed being familiarity, fallibility of memory, the impact of environmental deficits and development, etc.

Ever hear the phrase "Every *insert ethnicity here* person looks the same to me"? Apparently, there's some scientific backing to that assertion. XP

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Every hear the phrase "Every *insert ethnicity here* person looks the same to me"? Apparently, there's some scientific backing to that assertion. XP

I get that all the time for Asians.

Subconcious chooses to keep images you don't consider often importand as part of it's code.

Originally Posted by Carrot

I get that all the time for Asians.

Well... there is some truth in that..

No offense

Edit: But then again, when talking like that, it's about most people, not all.

To me most short brown/black haired guys look the same for example...

Originally Posted by littlezoe

Well... there is some truth in that..

No offense

I've been looking at this for a while now and I'm struggling to find a way in which that remark isn't offensive. Please be a bit more careful with the way you phrase things, especially when they refer to generalising a whole ethnicity.

Originally Posted by moSh

I've been looking at this for a while now and I'm struggling to find a way in which that remark isn't offensive. Please be a bit more careful with the way you phrase things, especially when they refer to generalising a whole ethnicity.

Well... then how else can i say it to not seem like that?

I'm not generalising, this is how me and many others see it. I'm not sure what ethnicity you are from, but i think this is true for most. Once i was talking with an asian guy years ago in my city and he told me the exact same thing, that to him we almost all look the same. I didn't take offense at all, we just laughed at it.
I have no problem with asian people, especially not with Carrot. This is not about being mean towards them, it's just how i (and others) see it... i can't change that...


But the thread is derailing a lot now...

Apologies, I mistook your comment for being specific to Asians. I realise upon re-reading it that it was most likely speaking more generally!

I really am having a slow day...


[EDIT]

This whiskey is surely not helping.