How does dream recall work

[werty52]

I have a question pertaining to the ability of dream recall TL;DR version at the bottom About a year ago when I first started recalling my dreams I wrote them down in a dream journal, eventually I started typing them up on dreamviews too, so I would write them out twice. I stopped handwriting them eventually and began holding mental notes during the night after each dream. I'd use those mental notes to rebuild the dream and write them out onto dreamviews in the morning. At some point I needed to also type notes onto my phone to keep track of them since it was getting harder. This was fine for a long time until my dream recall suddenly diminished (about 2-3 months ago). It may have related to a few things that I changed in my life (I'm no longer an insomniac and now have very good sleeps). I've started handwriting each dream in full detail into my dream journal again during the night in an effort to improve recall. I end up writing for like 5 minutes after each dream then having a short WBTB before heading back to sleep. It's a bit of a pain though because I need to sleep longer to make up for the time I spend awake during the night. My recall has become far better, but will occasionally be terrible from being exhausted after consecutive nights of waking up during the night. I just end up sleeping like a brick in those cases.. One of the problems is that storing mental notes about a dream so as to remember it in the morning is completely unfeasible. I will completely forget the dream unless I write it down nowadays.. Questions and TL; DR version Why and how do dreams delete themselves? What happens to the brain when we improve recall? What is the physiological/chemical reasons behind these processes? Does improving memory improve dream recall? Hopefully someone can help clarify some of these mysteries to me Thanks!

[ParanoidLlama]

Well I guess you could just have some sort of open notebook by your bed and instead of writing down the whole dream you could just jot down a few notes of the dream. It doesn't have to be really detailed, and if it helps you could just write down the main theme behind the dream (E.g. Man was trying to sell me a beach ball, we were in the desert). That way when you wake up, the image of the dream will come back to you. For the questions: 1. By delete themselves, I'm assuming you mean they get removed from your memory? Well, pretty much the same reason and method like any memory? I think I'm getting the wrong idea of what you're trying to say, could you clarify? 2. I'm guessing you become more aware of dreams when you consciously make efforts to improve recall. Recall is a skill like any other, so with practice your brain learns how to do it better. 3. That's interesting to think about, because if you're unconscious in your dreams, how WOULD you remember them? I don't have a clue. 4. I'm not sure..

[MrPriority]

That is quite some questions you have there! I have to warn you, I am not a scientist by any means, so anything I say is just how I understand it. I have however read some things on this topic, so let me give you a rundown on the science as i understand it. When you dream certain parts of your brain are completely inactive. This includes the part that is responsible for long term memory. This means that you can basically remember any dream when you are in it, but the longer you are awake the less you remember. Unless of course you take the time to write it all down. Now what you basically also do when you write it down, besides just writing what you know, is reinforcing your short term memories into your long term memories. You can only do this right after the dream because then the dream is still in your short term memory and you are awake so your long term memory is awake. Now I don't think this is all that is to be said on this subject. But this is a basic overview as I understand how it works. I personally think there's another part why DJing works and that is intention. Basically because you want to write your dreams as you wake up, you have a greater chance to actually wake up right after your dream. And then, as I said above, the act of writing it down moves the dream to a more permanent spot. Hope this helps.

[ParanoidLlama]

^ OH yeah, it wasn't on my mind that some of the brain is inactive during sleep. That makes a lot of sense.

[werty52]

Thanks for the replies! Well I guess you could just have some sort of open notebook by your bed and instead of writing down the whole dream you could just jot down a few notes of the dream. By writing down everything in full I'm hoping to close the gap of inactivity in my brain and switch on my brain enough to teach it to remember everything in full (without having to try so hard). Well that's the intention anyways, would writing short notes be better than writing in full detail? Usually even after writing most of the dream out at night I'll recall even more about it in the morning when I write it out again. 1. By delete themselves, I'm assuming you mean they get removed from your memory? Well, pretty much the same reason and method like any memory? I think I'm getting the wrong idea of what you're trying to say, could you clarify? Like when you wake up it can just fade away, sometimes I'm actively thinking about it (to cement it to my memory) then *pop* it's gone. I got the impression that we have some process that actually attempts to prevent us from recalling our dreams. Possibly to prevent us from thinking the dreams were real or to prevent our memory getting muddled? 2. I'm guessing you become more aware of dreams when you consciously make efforts to improve recall. Recall is a skill like any other, so with practice your brain learns how to do it better. I was wondering more about how the brain changes in response to improving recall. Is there a thickening of the cerebral cortex or does the hippocampus get larger? When you dream certain parts of your brain are completely inactive. This includes the part that is responsible for long term memory. This means that you can basically remember any dream when you are in it, but the longer you are awake the less you remember. Unless of course you take the time to write it all down. Now what you basically also do when you write it down, besides just writing what you know, is reinforcing your short term memories into your long term memories. You can only do this right after the dream because then the dream is still in your short term memory and you are awake so your long term memory is awake. Ah I see, that makes a lot more sense now. So do people who improve their recall to the max learn to activate their long term memory during their sleep? Also does anyone have an answer towards whether improving memory improves recall? I would think that it does, but I'm also curious if there's any scientific research that's been done on this before. I know I've heard people that practice recapping what they did in the past 10-20 minutes, seems like a good direction to go for improving memory + recall.

[dolphin]

Just to clarify, no region of the brain is completely inactive during sleep. The prefrontal cortex, responsible for logic and planning, typically shows decreased activity but it's not completely inactive.

[FryingMan]

Completely anecdotal and based off my experience and what I read from others' experiences: The best recall comes when you wake directly from the dream(s) and mentally review it (them) extensively or physically record it (them). There is something in NREM that seems to act as a "dream memory eraser", and also just being awake tends to make the dream memories fade, sometimes suddenly. So "sleeping through the night" (not noticing the wakings in between each sleep cycle) will typically give the worst recall results except for the final sleep cycle. I've been practicing mental journaling through the night for about 1.5 years now, and have gotten pretty good at retaining medium to good detail from earlier sleep cycles (it varies quite a lot from night to night), but it takes time to review the dreams over and over during the waking to make sure they move successfully to long-term memory, before going back to sleep. There is a risk of insomnia for me if I do that too long during any particular waking. So recently I'm trying to optimize my nights for lucidity instead of recall, going right back to sleep and doing hardly any recall at all during middle-of-the-night wakings, and yes overall recall does suffer. The best recall comes from a combination of really wanting to recall your dreams, changing your approach to life to actively pay attention to all your experiences (dreaming & waking), and to practice recalling your experiences (dreaming & waking). I write about these in more detail in my dream recall tips and in my views on lucid dreaming practice.

[DrmDoc]

If I may join your discussion, memory evolved concurrent with the real physical/material experiences of ancestral animals. Essentially, our ancestral species remembered experiences that has a palpable impact on their physical survival. Although some dreams may feel more real than reality, they are not real physical/material experiences--they are mental experiences. Although we may not be aware that our dream experiences aren't real, our dreaming brain is able to make that distinction. Consequently, we do not remember our dreams easily because they are incongruent with our physical reality which our brain determines upon arousal from sleep. We remember our dreams better when believe they have some real impact on our physical/material experience, otherwise we forget them. I hope this helps.

[Sageous]

Mind if I play through? First, the quiz: Why and how do dreams delete themselves? They don't. In a sense, and as far as your brain is concerned, your dreams never existed, so -- unless they were truly impactful, like a strong nightmare -- upon waking they are discarded as so much useless (and potentially confusing) information. This pattern works just fine for about 99% of humanity, but it sure is annoying to us dreamers. Since DrmDoc already gave an excellent description of the process of losing dreams, I'll stop here. What happens to the brain when we improve recall? Beyond changing the connections between a bunch of brain cells, probably not much. Increasing dream recall is simply a process of tapping systems that are already working in your brain; nothing new really needs to be added for recall to improve; there just needs to be some rewiring done. What is the physiological/chemical reasons behind these processes? I think I once knew that (at least the theories) but I've long forgotten; and I've never cared. I, for one, have had excellent success with developing recall without ever referencing the physiology... there might be something to think about there, as sometimes too much specific information can be a distraction. As an aside, I just wanted to take respectful exception to something Mr. Llama said above: you are actually quite conscious during dreams. You are just not self-aware, and you cannot access memory (if you're not lucid, of course). Counter-intuitive as it might sound, sleep does not equal unconsciousness. About the only time you are truly unconscious (other than when you've been, say, knocked out, put under anesthesia, or in a coma) is during early stage NREM, but I'm not even so sure about that. Also, if we were truly unconscious during sleep, how could we LD at all? Does improving memory improve dream recall? Yes, period. Dream recall is a function of memory so, if your memory works better, then so would your recall... as long as you are careful to install them into memory upon waking. A couple of other thoughts: I highly recommend that you go back to writing down your dreams, and doing so in as much detail as possible. There does seem to be some direct relation between handwriting and memory, in that when you write things down, you have a much better chance of seeing them stored in long-term memory. There also is no rule out there that says you must record every dream you have, so here's a crazy thought: Why not just write down the ones you remember in the morning? You'll still be recording dreams and building dream recall, but you won't be torturing yourself all night. Of course if you have a great dream in the middle of the night, write it down, but let the others go; you really don't need them all. Is that some sort of heresy? I don't think so.

[werty52]

Went away for a while so I wasn't able to reply, but thanks for all the insight you guys have provided . I highly recommend that you go back to writing down your dreams, and doing so in as much detail as possible. There does seem to be some direct relation between handwriting and memory, in that when you write things down, you have a much better chance of seeing them stored in long-term memory. I'm going back to writing out all my dreams during the night to rebuild my recall, after a week or 2 I may just write down what I remember in the morning I don't want to drain myself of life by disrupting my sleep repeatedly. I also know now that the more aware I am during the day, the more aware I am during the night. And the more aware I am during the night seems to make me more capable of recalling my dreams.