Thread: Longest LD Possible?

How about this crazy thought? Sleep paralysis doesn't matter, particularly in the context of this thread. In fact, I would say the only reason it's relevant to this thread is that people who get caught up with prioritizing LD'ing side effects like SP are the same people who are going to have a hard time achieving long, worthwhile LD's.

I think Hukif is right that there may be another name for SP during sleep. I don't remember it either, but it is essentially the same thing: your body reduces its ability to move during dreaming so that you don't mimic the motions of your dream in your bed and risk injury. I think the only reason the term was invented was because people in near-conscious states -- like LD'ing -- tended to notice that they briefly were unable to move because their otherwise sleeping body hadn't yet adjusted to their wakefulness; or, as during WILD, the aware dreamer must "feel" the onset of SP as they witness their body falling -- normally -- to sleep.

The condition that causes SP is a natural factor in everyone's sleep every night. It is not a mystical event, and does nothing to improve your LD'ing skills, regardless of the often breathless "advice" regularly posted on this site. It is simply an LD'er witnessing a physical symptom of sleeping. Nothing more than that passing notice, for matters of timing and of course to avoid becoming scared, is necessary.

Also, Hukif made a good point when he said that nobody gets SP during REM -- they don't because they're asleep during REM, and thus unable to notice any paralysis. If you notice SP, you're awake*. So there is no need to discuss it. Really.

Oh, and before someone sternly corrects me: yes, I am aware that SP is integral to astral projection. That's fine. But this is a thread about LD'ing.

Sorry, I might be venting. I'm just witnessing yet another interesting thread being hijacked by the elevation of an amazingly unimportant side-effect of LD'ing.

* The only possible exception to this is when you have difficulty moving during an LD, which might imply that you're closer to wakefulness than you think, or perhaps might have to do with dream control itself, but either way its an arguable exception that I don't think is terribly relevant here.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Also, Hukif made a good point when he said that nobody gets SP during REM -- they don't because they're asleep during REM, and thus unable to notice any paralysis. If you notice SP, you're awake*. So there is no need to discuss it. Really.

Just because you don't notice it, you are in still in SP....

Originally Posted by Sageous

Sorry, I might be venting. I'm just witnessing yet another interesting thread being hijacked by the elevation of an amazingly unimportant side-effect of LD'ing.

Well, with this whole comment you posted, you are part of the hijacking, no offense

Originally Posted by littlezoe

Interestingly enough, you didn't tell us what it's called then. I know why is that, because it's called the same way... even you don't know the other name, as it doesn't exist.

I always forget the name and write it wrong, thats why I didn't say it and not because it doesn't exists... but really google could tell you the answer quickly.
SP: Sleep paralysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And sleep atonia: Rapid eye movement sleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Between, the one thing I always confuse it with is "sleep APNEA" and they are very different, so didn't want to embarass myself by totally mispelling it again <.<

Originally Posted by Hukif

I always forget the name and write it wrong, thats why I didn't say it and not because it doesn't exists... but really google could tell you the answer quickly.
SP: Sleep paralysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And sleep atonia: Rapid eye movement sleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Between, the one thing I always confuse it with is "sleep APNEA" and they are very different, so didn't want to embarass myself by totally mispelling it again <.<

I never ever heard that before. Everyone i was talking with about SP kept calling both SP. You'll notice that most people use SP for both.
And it's basically the same, so no problem.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

And it's basically the same, so no problem.

No.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

I never ever heard that before. Everyone i was talking with about SP kept calling both SP. You'll notice that most people use SP for both.
And it's basically the same, so no problem.

Doesn't means I have to use the same term for both, now does it? Thats like saying that because most people believe in the Judeo-Christian religion it is true <.<
Yes, they are basically the same. The different name was given because SP tends to scare people and thus become an anxiety problem and can be a disease, plus it isn't the "normal" to be in that state. Thats how a lot of diseases work anyway, something that happens naturally suddenly comes at the wrong time and ends up becoming a problem, getting a new name to not confuse people and what-not.

Also I think you are totally misunderstanding from the first post I made, the "first" was meant as a joke at the start because people were taking the whole "newbies can't have this!" too seriously, and felt like being a weirdo and take attention away from that with a simple but not well known fact.

But yeah it isn't really a problem, not like how people name it matters much so long as everyone understands what the other means.

Though the OP mentions newbies only and I'm not sure I qualify, I can say with confidence that I've had dozens of LD's lasting well over an hour, mainly due to the circumstances Hukif explained so well a couple of posts up. Also, I have on several occasions (one being just last week) been able to "jump" from REM cycle to REM cycle using WILD/DEILD without losing the dream, effectively staying in the same dream for three hours or more. Oh, and when you're conscious throughout the experience and own a clock it really isn't that hard (with a little practice) to make a good guess at how long the dream physically lasted.

Finally, regarding all this talk of NREM LD'ing: it is possible, very different, very difficult (waking consciousness has little interest hanging around during it, for some reason), well worth exploring, and you will know it when you're in it -- in other words, I'm not sure you can really include holding consciousness through NREM as part of your LD's length. That could be a philosophical point there, but I figured it would be worth mentioning. Also, I doubt a newbie could bumble into a state of NREM LD'ing, but as Hukif said above, anything is possible.

Same with a newbie having a very long LD -- it's certainly possible, but unlikely -- there's just too much you must "know" to have a REM-period-stretching, or REM-jumping LD that lasts more than 45 minutes or so. I suggest, Littlezoe, if it's not too late to make a suggestion, that you congratulate the newbie on their success, but have them really review what they wrote down upon waking, just to see if they can confirm to themselves, all clocks aside, that they were aware for 1-2 hours straight. Maybe they'll come back a little sheepish, but they'll have learned a bit about how to track these things -- especially important if they're having long LD's by accident!

Oh, and Sandyman, if you haven't already, get a copy of Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge -- it's kind of the bible for this stuff.


I hope that helped.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

Just because you don't notice it, you are in still in SP....

Yes indeedy. What I was saying was that the act of noticing the paralysis was where the term came from. When you're asleep, you're literally paralyzed regardless, so of course you're still in SP. Also, I believe Hukif was correct in stating the physiological term for the paralysis that accompanies sleep is not SP. But as you state clearly, it really doesn't matter.

Well, with this whole comment you posted, you are part of the hijacking, no offense

You are totally correct, which is why I apologized for the rant. I guess I liked the basis of your thread enough that it was worth not biting my tongue (which I usually do) and say something that might get the chat back to long LD's and helping newbies who are sure they had them. That went well, given that my whole point was that SP doesn't matter, and I may have failed to make it...

And, to end my part in this hijacking, I'll shut up and hope that the thread recovers!

This thread causes me mental anguish.

Blarg.

Back on topic nao...

Well my first dream was around 40 to 60 mins and it could of been longer but I was ill too, And my throat hurt.

It's works, Don't limit one's brain.
After all the Human brain has created everything you see.

Just look at the longest possible REM cycle.

Originally Posted by Wolfwood

Just look at the longest possible REM cycle.

...As a baseline, yes, but remember that an LD'er, perhaps even a newbie, possesses an innate interest (and ability?) to stretch the length of that REM cycle well beyond the "official" numbers recorded by researchers of normal sleep.

Originally Posted by Sageous

...As a baseline, yes, but remember that an LD'er, perhaps even a newbie, possesses an innate interest (and ability?) to stretch the length of that REM cycle well beyond the "official" numbers recorded by researchers of normal sleep.

I wasn't aware one could increase the length of REM sleep. If possible, it'd decrease the amount of important sleep, NREM. Unless you just sleep more overall.

Originally Posted by Wolfwood

I wasn't aware one could increase the length of REM sleep. If possible, it'd decrease the amount of important sleep, NREM. Unless you just sleep more overall.

True. I guess "important" sleep depends upon where your priorities lie! But for what it's worth, I think the only time an LD'er could successfully extend REM would be very late in a night's sleep (like after at lest 6 hours of sleep) which is well beyond the time allotted for the important sleep.

Originally Posted by Sageous

True. I guess "important" sleep depends upon where your priorities lie! But for what it's worth, I think the only time an LD'er could successfully extend REM would be very late in a night's sleep (like after at lest 6 hours of sleep) which is well beyond the time allotted for the important sleep.

Haha, touche. I'm sure on DV we'd consider REM to be most important. ^_^ Have you had success with lengthy LDs?

We seem to naturally prioritize REM sleep. When sleep deprived people nap, they instantly drop into REM sleep, skipping the early stages. Polyphasic sleepers cash in on this to stay sane on frightfully small amounts of sleep. This is also why afternoon naps work so well for dreaming.

I've always wondered why we can go right into REM during naps, but not when we go to sleep at night. For example, if I am tired, I can take a 7:00pm nap and instantly enter REM. If I go to bed at 7:00pm, however, I will go through a normal sleep cycle. I guess we can't fool ourselves? Is there an explanation for this?

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

We seem to naturally prioritize REM sleep. When sleep deprived people nap, they instantly drop into REM sleep, skipping the early stages. Polyphasic sleepers cash in on this to stay sane on frightfully small amounts of sleep. This is also why afternoon naps work so well for dreaming.

I've always wondered why we can go right into REM during naps, but not when we go to sleep at night. For example, if I am tired, I can take a 7:00pm nap and instantly enter REM. If I go to bed at 7:00pm, however, I will go through a normal sleep cycle. I guess we can't fool ourselves? Is there an explanation for this?

Might be the nature of the sleep periods.

NREM has been shown to be more physically restorative, while REM tends to clear out mental fatigue.

I know in my case, napping is more of a mental thing, as my body is not at all worn out after only a few hours of being up.

After a long day of walking, running, and standing everywhere I go, my body is what needs a little pick me up.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Might be the nature of the sleep periods.

NREM has been shown to be more physically restorative, while REM tends to clear out mental fatigue.

That makes sense. Have you ever seen anything about the timing of REM cycles being persistent, independent of sleep schedule? I notice this most during wake back to bed attempts and naps. Anytime I try to modify my sleep schedule, the REM cycles tend to stay anchored in the same time slots. Is this just my imagination? (My only way of tracking REM is by assuming it coincides with vivid dreams. Not very accurate, I know).

Picture0028.jpgPicture0027.jpg

Ok if you want evidence that they have had 1-2 hours of LD, you could try to use or ask them to use an Iphone application called Dreamz (Are My Reality). Ask you can see in my screenshot, it says that from 2:37 AM to 6:45 AM, I had 3 dreams, had the longest dream for 40 mins and my total dream time was 1 hr 23 min.

Looking at the graph, you can see where the 40 minutes came from (should be from 4:13 AM to 5:01 AM).

You can get the application from the App Store. I hope this helps.




P.S. I suppose the dream time is based on REM sleep according to the Dreamz App. This app by the way is also a lucid dream aid by giving audio cues when it detects that you're sleeping via the accelerometer. Haven't had success with it yet though but maybe its because I was in the first week of CAT or the cue was too soft. Only tried it 2 nights though.

That is bizarre, unless as you said, there is some deep-rooted, subconscious expectation bias that alters whether one enters NREM/REM based on expected sleep duration.

Why is that hard to believe? O_O

^ I know the apps like that very well, i used them myself as well. DreamZ doesn't seem that reliable though like Smart Alarm Clock for example.

How can it know when you're dreaming?

Originally Posted by Wolfwood

How can it know when you're dreaming?

Well you have to put the phone near you and it makes the stats based on your movement during the night... Not exactly sure how does it determine REM time though... But Smart Alarm Clock seemed believable when i used it for a while.... :s

lol very bizarre... I'll give it a go anyway.