Thread: Is it ethical to hurt your DCs?

Originally Posted by LSDgarfield

Well i had my first Lucid yesterday, and well .... i tried my new powers on the first DC i saw. And burned him. Afterwards i think hm why didnt i get to know him?
well but i was so excited i could shoot lightning out of my hands that burns things down^^

With great power comes great responsibilities.

I dont mind killing my DCs.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

It is ethical, but certainly not proper behavior for a gentleman

I actually laughed out loud (literally) when I read that one


Oh and to the topic:

If you want to blow a house up or something, I wouldn't think about eventual DCs that lived there, but if you summon a person just to kill, or if you kill a DC just "to do it", then maybe it would be a little unethical...

I would like to meet you once in my dreams, lool maybe you did already.
Attacking DCs and they didn't do anything to you doesn't make sense, only makes sense when they actually are attacking you.

Originally Posted by LSDgarfield

Well i had my first Lucid yesterday, and well .... i tried my new powers on the first DC i saw. And burned him. Afterwards i think hm why didnt i get to know him?
well but i was so excited i could shoot lightning out of my hands that burns things down^^

Just remember sometimes you are lucid but not in your full right mind. Last night I cut in line at a urinal and then beat up the dc I pushed in front of, just because I could. I punched and sexually assulted a woman another time. I am not proud of my behavior. But this is not the rational me. In my right mind I would have left the john and gone flying... Or one time I healed sick people. I would like to believe thats the real me but suspect I have both natures in me. Question is, who do you really WANT to be?

Im kinda picky about my Lucid DC's.. I conjure them up before I go to sleep and most of the time they beat me there, In Non Lucid's its kinda touch and go about who can hurt who..

That's like asking if it's ethical to kill people in Video Games.

When I play Grand Theft Auto, I make a point of beating the shit out of women, and shooting any man who tries to be a hero. I play The Sims and create families just to confine them and starve them or burn them to death... Or in SimCity when you wreck havoc in the city, etc, etc...

In my only Lucid Dream where I actually did anything, I made a point of injuring a Dream Character. In video games and in our dreams, we are in "God Mode". We have absolute power over what happens...

Allow me to Quote William Pitt: "Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it".

If I had such power over the real world, and real people were as insignificant to me as video game/dream characters - would I go about doing it? I don't know. Maybe I would leave the innocent alone and only kill/injure those who I don't like or deem unworthy... But that urge would still be there.

Some people would consider that it is immoral to gain pleasure from harming others, be they real or not -- but as long as civilizations exist, their laws and police will prevent us from doing these things.

I personally believe that "Morals" are less than real... Just something we've come up with to keep ourselves safe.

That's like asking if it's ethical to kill people in Video Games.

We have a very large 5 sided building in DC devoted to just that kind of logic.

Originally Posted by superchaz

I only kill DCs that are out to harm me.

If Lucid, I have more fun showing them that they are unable to.

Anyway, kind of hard to kill something that's not physically alive. They have the same indestructible qualities as the one dreaming them has. Your mind may create the event of them dying as you attack them. But more often than not when I try to kill attackers in nonlucids, they don't die. And the effort in trying can sometimes get disturbingly gruesome.

Originally Posted by Caradon

If Lucid, I have more fun showing them that they are unable to..

I like that answer, I pick my lucid DC's more carefully, For tonight the seed is already planted, I wish we didnt have to repeat it every night but if I dont then it's a non-lucid and devil take the hindmost......

Originally Posted by DreiHundert

I personally believe that "Morals" are less than real... Just something we've come up with to keep ourselves safe.

That is very close to the way people with "sociopathy" look at things. I am not sure it counts as a good thing when we hear some one say that. The sociopathic mind would say that every one feels this way, but they keep their mouth shut. The truth is that it is a fairly rare person who wants to infict suffering, but the only reason they do not is fear of punishment. That is why it gets its own mental illness title "sociopathy". Most people have reasons related to emotional feelings that would keep them from violent acts. If you gave power to many different people, it is either the drug abuser (like meth) or a rare odd broken person, who desires to cause suffering on any fiendish level. I can not prove what I have said, but I imagine many level headed people understand my point.

Me and my wife joke that all teens are naturally sociopathic. It is not true of course, but when I played role playing games as a teen, I wanted to be an assassin or some such. However, before I turned say 25 I did not want to fantasize about being dirty, or cruel. I have really only played heros (paladins) in any RPG for over 15 years. I honestly do not kill people in dreams or take part in weird violent dreams. That is not because I hold myself back out of a sense of "is it moral." The simple truth is that no part of me wants to fantasize about death or gore. It will sound preachy or judgemental, but I assume that an evolution away from enjoying violent stuff is a good and natural path for most people. I pass no judgement on people for having the fantasies they naturally have, but if it were a friend, I would hope that the direction he would choose to grow in, would lead him to a more peaceful self.

Originally Posted by sivason

I will just offer a few simple questions. Do you wish to be a calm spiritual person? Do you really find violent video game dreams more entertaining then any other dream setting? What do you feel you get out of violent fantasies?

If you have little concern for developing into a remarkable and spiritual person, then go crazy and do what ever occurs to you. I may find it sad, but to each their own. What can it hurt other than your own sense of self? I personally do not want to be a person who thrills at violence more than say flying or controlling a storm.
I may suggest that context can make a huge difference! In one dream maybe you murder everyone at your school and in another you break inti a pirate hide out in Somalia and free the poor hostages. I think the second could be thrilling and involve killing a blowing things up without meaning much. So context matters.

This is a great post! However, I've had very violent dream characters in my dreams, and it wasn't because of anything that *I* did. Even last night, I remember someone beating a helpless young man, and I stood my guard -- prepared to defend myself. Typical of me in real life; I recognize an injustice where I see it, and I will defend myself if I have to.

But the dream character brought the violence to me. I wasn't searching for violence.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

This is a great post! However, I've had very violent dream characters in my dreams, and it wasn't because of anything that *I* did. Even last night, I remember someone beating a helpless young man, and I stood my guard -- prepared to defend myself. Typical of me in real life; I recognize an injustice where I see it, and I will defend myself if I have to.

But the dream character brought the violence to me. I wasn't searching for violence.

But if your dream characters bring stuff like that to u, doesn't that mean that deep inside u want it to happen?
Found this on the internet, it has nothing to do with dreams. But i agree that in the end we all have a killer instinct and sometimes it may come in our dreams in a strange way. Maybe not us, but just other dream characters can show u what we really can do. But it's your actions that makes the person u are today, but i don't think anybody in this world is truly a 'pure' person. We are all animals in the end.

I think the reason we are so violent is because during the millions of years we evolved to become homo sapiens we had to kill prey, preditor, or one another. I think that this killer instinct is with us for good in our genes. In the modern age a majority of us prefer peace, perhaps you can argue this, but that killer instinct is always there just beneath the surface.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

This is a great post! However, I've had very violent dream characters in my dreams, and it wasn't because of anything that *I* did. Even last night, I remember someone beating a helpless young man, and I stood my guard -- prepared to defend myself. Typical of me in real life; I recognize an injustice where I see it, and I will defend myself if I have to.

But the dream character brought the violence to me. I wasn't searching for violence.

Well in your case you are defending yourself or another, so the context issue is taken care of. Dreams of standing up for yourself or being heroic are not phsycologically the same as violent fantacies. I assume that you may still desire to have fewer of these dreams given a choice, but the thing it is revieling about your nature may be an honest desire to become strong enough to not be afraid. Here is all I would suggest as I do not find your dream disturbing in general due to the context. That is, you have many types of dream control you will learn to play with. Here is a useful power "turn off DC' where you use a jedi type jesture and the DC freezes and no longer can continue what it was doing. You can also use attacks that spare gorey results yet are effective. A non-lethal lightning that leaves them smoking, but still twitching for example lets you combat evil with out the need to experience bloody violence.
Other dream control options exist that may be good ways to deal with dreams of being a defender. You can learn to 'believe' a DC has only limited power. With you playing a super hero and the DC funny and pathetic there is no need to deal lethal bloody attacks. Then you could pick them up with 'the force' and shake them unconcious and so on, or fly away, telport them to a room neck deep in dirty diapers or what ever yyou find entertaining.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

This is a great post! However, I've had very violent dream characters in my dreams, and it wasn't because of anything that *I* did. Even last night, I remember someone beating a helpless young man, and I stood my guard -- prepared to defend myself. Typical of me in real life; I recognize an injustice where I see it, and I will defend myself if I have to. But the dream character brought the violence to me. I wasn't searching for violence.

Mindraker, I think what we're talking about here is choosing to do violence to DC's during LD's.

No, I think Sivason's excellent post somewhere above relates to dreamers who choose to kill or do other very bad things to their DC's that they wouldn't dare do -- or even think about -- in waking life. If you are not lucid, there's really nothing you can do, or blame yourself about, when violence ensues ... though it would be very cool if your DC "You" did the right thing too (as yours seemed to), because it reflects well on the dreamer!

To ignore your sense of morality and your sense of Self to find joy in hurting others is never, I think, a good thing. Also, you may be able to convince yourself that DC's are not real and thus can be tortured, raped, killed, etc, no-harm-no-foul, but in truth all those DC's are reflections of you; projections of your own dreaming mind. All the pain you bring upon them is pain brought upon yourself -- and a part of you will remember that.

Somewhere else up there Ekyu mentioned the killer instinct ... isn't a LD the perfect opportunity for we learning and growing humans test, and prove, our ability to rise above instinct? I think so.

I was just pointing out that we are not perfect beings, and i agree that lucid dreaming shouldn't be about killing or hurting other people for fun. There are far more intresting stuff to do. But u also need to look it from my point of view on this matter, is it really that hard to beleve that some people just enjoy being a 'bad' guy once in a while in there dreams? I don't think it's that strange..

Is it wrong? That's for themself to decide, it doesn't effect anybody else but them.
We don't have any right to judge people in situations like this.

Originally Posted by Ekyu

I was just pointing out that we are not perfect beings, and i agree that lucid dreaming shouldn't be about killing or hurting other people for fun. There are far more intresting stuff to do. But u also need to look it from my point of view on this matter, is it really that hard to believe that some people just enjoy being a 'bad' guy once in a while in there dreams? I don't think it's that strange...

Sadly, it's not strange at all. I was actually not disagreeing with you, Ekyu; your point is more than sound. I was mentioning only that LD'ing could be a tool for rising above mindless instinct.

Is it wrong? That's for themself to decide, it doesn't effect anybody else but them. We don't have any right to judge people in situations like this.

Perhaps not a right to judge (people's dreams are their own worlds, after all), but maybe an obligation to look into the nature of doing harm to DC's, and indirectly our selves, and using the process of discussing things like this to raise warning flags to folks who are currently convincing themselves that it is okay to become a sociopath in their dreams.

I do agree that u shouldn't go sociopath in ur dreams, but the question is where do u draw the line? When are u being a sociopath? stuff like torture is pretty obvious, but i was talking more about the 'gray' zone if u understand what i mean? Is being a demon in ur dreams and blowing random stuff up, does this make u a sociopath? Is stuff like that really harmfull for u? I just think it depends person on person.

I think we agree with each other, but it's just where is the line where it becomes wrong?

Do what you are most comfortable with. Morality is a bit different in dreams, so don't get too caught up in it. In a dream if I steal from a shop, no one loses any money, and if I kill someone, no one will die. Personally I draw the line with my comfort level, I would have no problem killing a DC, but would be uneasy with brutally torturing, dismembering, or causing a great deal of gore when dealing with a DC. If something in a dream is not enjoyable or comfortable for you, you probably will avoid it without having to think about it, so I wouldn't worry about this much.

I don/t hurt my DCs because I have no reason to. If one tries to harm me or scare me all i have to do is just not accept that as reality and it doesn't happen.

I got the opposite I can kill in non-LDs. In an LD I had I was in a military squad and fell out of my helicopter, I then imagined a boss henchman and shot him. I was afraid that it didn't work and he got up, so I flew away.

You have just awoken in another world, you have the power to do literally anything, and you choose to go on a rampage? You violent $#*#! lmao

Sometimes I find myself doing unethical things to fulfill my role in the dream narrative. Even when lucid, I like to encourage my dreams to play out on their own. This often means I am playing a particular role. I am not myself, I am a character. When this happens, I don't feel bad. It is like telling a story. I don't feel bad telling a gruesome ghost story around a campfire. I don't feel bad about doing the same in my dream.

Originally Posted by siuol

Do what you are most comfortable with. Morality is a bit different in dreams, so don't get too caught up in it. In a dream if I steal from a shop, no one loses any money, and if I kill someone, no one will die. Personally I draw the line with my comfort level, I would have no problem killing a DC, but would be uneasy with brutally torturing, dismembering, or causing a great deal of gore when dealing with a DC. If something in a dream is not enjoyable or comfortable for you, you probably will avoid it without having to think about it, so I wouldn't worry about this much.

I think there is a line that left uncrossed allows for video or war game type violence. I am an odd guy who believes I have taken part in 'games' with other entities and possably other dreamers. In these games the theme is often spy or combat related. The dream takes place in a way that feels much more like paint ball than anything bad. The dream imagery does not contain gore and blood. I got hit by a rocket grenade and just had to start back a ways, no pain, no blood. If I shot at others they would just fade away if I got them, and so on. This type of experience has no feel of anger or killing, just the fun of competing.
I do not judge or care what others dream, but I hope some will get my thing about context. In my dream the plot is 'this is a war simulation', the graphics are kept PG and no anger or rush of murder are involved. The truth is people have fantasies about conflict or being victorious. It is very normal. I agree with Sageous that LDs are a perfect setting for over coming your baser nature. I also understand why many want exciting dreams that are video game like. The need for action and competition are different from a part of you enjoying rage or the feeling of power in mutilation or rape. If part of you does ennjoy this stuff, then you are not to blame and I do not judge. However, you have a choice, you can indulge and bath in blood and rage, or you can question if that is how you wish to be in the big picture. If part of you questions and wishes you would eventually evovle into something beautiful then you really should reread all of Sageous' posts on this and try to understand him. To grow or not to grow, not to blame, just wether to grow or stay the same.