Thread: Is it ethical to hurt your DCs?

Thank you for politely telling me I'm wrong.

I wasn't so much telling you you're wrong, WatcherWorks, than I was making a small addition to your position...

I'm sure someone has said this, but in dreams there are no ethics.

Actually, I believe whether there are ethics or not is the decision of the dreamer.

Originally Posted by DreamGuy

Actually, I believe whether there are ethics or not is the decision of the dreamer.

Is it, though? Shouldn't there exist a core set of behaviors (including, for instance, murder, torture, rape, etc) that are simply wrong, regardless of context?

I think so, and I find this particularly true in LD'ing, when your waking self is present to witness these behaviors and clearly understand that what you are doing is wrong by any waking life, natural, personal, or rational measure.

Ethics is not an artificial collection of rules that someone made up once because they had a moment of righteous indignation ... No, ethics is the codification of the core, innate, instinctive set of reasonably correct behaviors that healthy humans share in order to survive together. I have a feeling that abandoning them in your LD's is not only disingenuous and immature, but may be an affront to your very nature.

In other words, when you are spitting in the face of what humanity and nature has found to be "good" behavior after uncounted millennia of growth, you are betraying your own nature, and your essential self. That cannot be a good thing.

That you can "get away" with deplorable behavior because you are in a dream and have convinced yourself that it isn't real doesn't make it okay to do, I think. When you know you are doing something wrong, you still have to answer to your self for your behavior ... Ethics transcend the notion of getting away with it.

I think the issue here is killing from necessity and killing for fun.

If you hurt or kill DC because he is about to kill you, or kill some other innocent DC and you feel like being a hero and you want to be on side of those who can't protect themselfs. I would say that in this case it's acceptable to kill a DC. Of course, first you would try to disarm him or render him harmless some other, non-lethal way.

I would probably have no problem being a freedom fighter trying to repell hords of mean invading enemies. But I would not be happy about having to kill them and it would make me sad and feel like crap.

The other thing is intentionally harming/killing/torturing innocent DC, just so I can experience how killing someone feels, just to see pain in his eyes. That's something I could not do and I have no desire to experience how that feels. I know it feels bad. I feel bad just thinking about it. About 10 years ago I killed a dog in non-lucid and I still cringe when thinking about it.

I guess I could use an example that really resonates with me.
The difference between Native Americans killing animals and Bufallo Bill killing animals.

Native Americans were killing animals to survive and after kill they asked the animal's spirit for forgivness. They appreciated and valued all living things and nature. Bufallo Bill on the other hand, killed thousands of bison just for sport, not needing any of their meet to survive.

I don't really know how to answer that. I'll try though.
Ethics is concerned with what is right or wrong, good or bad, fair or unfair, responsible or irresponsible, obligatory or permissible, praiseworthy or blameworthy. It is associated with guilt, shame, indignation, resentment, empathy, compassion, and care.
There's no correct answer to this thread because we all have our own way of looking at things.
It's our way of seeing things, our perspective, that allows us to see what is good or bad.

Yes, when someone wakes up from such a dream they may feel sad and may not feel at rest. But yet, I know people who can kill a DC of their mom without second thought.

Even in real life, there are rapist on the streets. To us, what do they do is unethical, disgusting, forbidden. But to them their just having fun.
The Terrorists who cause terror in the lives of so many people. To them, their not doing the wrong thing. To them their doing the right thing by serving their god.
Now, I'm not saying those things are good, I think they are horrible. I'm just saying they think differently, they have their own opinion of what they are doing.

What your saying, is not true for everybody, and I do agree with you we should all set a line that should not be crossed. Some people just may not agree.

I Give Up

^^ Don't give up, DreamGuy, especially when so much of what you say makes sense!

I think our difference here is semantic. I'm talking about ethics -- the innate, hardwired sense of what is right and wrong, and you're talking about ethos -- the fundamental values peculiar to a specific culture or person. There is a difference, in that the former is built into us, while the latter is an intellectual attachment people use to justify their bad behavior. In other words, that terrorist knows full well that murdering innocent women and children is a very bad thing, but he (or rather his influential superiors) has invented an ethos to make terrorism okay. Criminals work much the same way, though those of the sociopathic or psychopathic persuasions are truly unable to differentiate good from evil, because their brain's hard-wiring is fried.

I hope that you were just saying that you "know people who can kill a DC of their mom without second thought" for effect, but if it's true, be wary of those folks, because they are making some odd ethical choices. If they are choosing to murder family members while lucid -- in possession of their waking-life sense of right and wrong -- then they are making choices that run counter to their own nature. Of course, if they are not lucid while doing this then it doesn't matter (though a psychoanalyst would be most curious!).

So I guess what I'm saying is that ethics -- awareness of what is truly good and bad -- is the same for everyone. How people choose to ignore their humanity or sense of right and wrong is a different story altogether, though. So yeah, there are certainly people who do not agree, but they do so by turning their backs on what they know instinctively is truly right and wrong, not by having their own natural definitions of ethics.

I hope that made sense. If not, don't give up; give me crap!

Yea that makes sense.
I'm not good at all this psychological stuff so I really should stop now.
Believe me I wouldn't dream of doing this stuff (hehe see what I did there)?.
Btw I do know someone who killed A dc of his mom. Mzzkc. He was doing it to prove a point though.

See, I don't make a conscious choice to not harm DCs because I consciously believe it's 'wrong'. Nope....instinctively, devoid of morality, I simply don't kill random DCs because it's boring and useless -- they need to fight and put up a challenge. Then it's fun. Put simply: they need to be a character of the fighting nature. And by character, I mean iconic in some capacity. Then it's like taking part in a play on stage -- it really feels like a game. We're just playing.

^^ And in that case it is a game you're just playing, Wolfwood; you're right.

I think the general theme of this thread is not about killing in defense, or battling with evil attackers, or killing DC's by accident. No; it is about going out of your way to genuinely harm DC's just to harm them, especially if they pose no threat to your own DC self.

So yes, if you've found yourself in a battle-ravaged dreamscape crowded with marauders out to get you, or perhaps Freddy Kruger has you in his sights, I can't see much argument against following your instincts and defend away (aside from changing the dream to something less violent, which is what I would do).

But I don't think choosing a DC at random and intentionally harming it is quite the same thing as that, and doing so does seem an affront to the dreamer's natural ethics (ie, stone cold murder= bad for pretty much everyone).

Here's one last thought: if the WakingNomads, Sivasons, and Shadowofwinds of this forum are correct, you might not be harming just another DC, but the avatar for an actual person; something to consider, I think!

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ And in that case it is a game you're just playing, Wolfwood; you're right.

I think the general theme of this thread is not about killing in defense, or battling with evil attackers, or killing DC's by accident. No; it is about going out of your way to genuinely harm DC's just to harm them, especially if they pose no threat to your own DC self.

So yes, if you've found yourself in a battle-ravaged dreamscape crowded with marauders out to get you, or perhaps Freddy Kruger has you in his sights, I can't see much argument against following your instincts and defend away (aside from changing the dream to something less violent, which is what I would do).

But I don't think choosing a DC at random and intentionally harming it is quite the same thing as that, and doing so does seem an affront to the dreamer's natural ethics (ie, stone cold murder= bad for pretty much everyone).

Here's one last thought: if the WakingNomads, Sivasons, and Shadowofwinds of this forum are correct, you might not be harming just another DC, but the avatar for an actual person; something to consider, I think!

Mmm, I think the issue is not destroying an innocent DC or erasing them from existence, which would be exceptionally bad in real life. In the dream, snapping your fingers and having an innocent DC drop to the floor dead is not the same as having that ability and doing it in real life...no; however, torturing and harming a DC over time in a realistic, visceral-like manner....all whilst the DC is responding in a very realistic way... that is quite disturbing.

What I'm getting at is that this question isn't of a yes/no kind.... killing a DC for no reason is highly contingent upon how it's done. Even in real life, it is said that sniping someone from a distance is devoid of all the mental torture and anguish found in blasting someone's body to shreds with a shotgun. That is to say, we feel worse when we see another suffer over time and up close -- I don't think reshaping your dreamscape by 'deleting' DCs is anything to worry about; however, someone choosing to harm an innocent DC over time, in a horrific, up-close, visceral-like manner...making them suffer and cry in pain.... and then to gain pleasure/satisfaction from it.... I think this says a lot about the person's mental state.

Though I'm not really answering the question from an ethical point, that is, whether it is right or wrong. I'm simply answering it from a personal/emotional standpoint (should we feel bad or good or nothing?)

I find killing fictional characters is easier. I don't kill random DC's but the fictional characters I can kill or hurt because they don't exist.

I sometimes feel guilt, however illogical it is. When I think back, there isn't anything to be ashamed of, since it's just imaginary.

Well, most of the time, when I try to hurt DCs, they merely bleed but I can never really 'kill' them. Like, if I shoot one for example, they just get blood on their face, but it doesn't really hurt them.