How do I make my dreams last longer?

[Lokoloi]

If stabilizing is supposed to be the thing that makes the dream last longer, what do I do if it ends before I get the chance? Literally the first thing I do is strengthen my connection to the dream by observing my surroundings and stimulating each sense, but in the last two lucids I had, the dream just ended with no warning at all, while I was doing just that. It wasn't slowly deteriorating, it was just an instant blackout. The last thing I want to do is rush because that'll just make the dream end faster, so I'm not sure what to do on this one. Help is appreciated. Both of these dreams were early in the morning, like 6 and 8am respectively. These are the dreams that should be lasting the longest, right? I used WILD to induce one and DILD for another. I usually wake up at 8 and last night I went to sleep at 1am. My sleep is usually of high quality. My bed is amazing, and I can't remember the last time I woke up groggy, outside of school. EDIT: It's happened the last two times, but this is an issue that plagues me in almost every Lucid Dream. Every Lucid i've had since march 2022 and almost every one before suffers from some form of this early dissipation problem.

[Hilary]

Ah man, that's a bummer. I might try immediately looking at my hands as a stabilization technique, rather than focusing on surroundings. You want something close up. Stare at them up close until you see every wrinkle. If you make it past that point, I would then state my name a few times. After that, focus on surroundings. It might be just an emotional knee-jerk reaction type response, like a little fear or excitement kicking you out. If that is the case, it should get better with time. Imo, two dreams is not a huge concern for it being a pattern yet. So it might not happen next time. Good luck and I hope it resolves for you soon.

[DarkestDarkness]

Waking up groggy in the morning is not necessarily a sign of anything negative. Ordinary and good quality sleep can still leave someone to wake up that way, what can matter more is whether it lasts for more than a reasonable amount of time and if it then starts impacting someone's day. (Some of my best sleep actually caused a short grogginess in the morning for me ) I agree with Hilary, it's difficult to tell just with two instances. I haven't had a great deal of lucid dreams even since I first became interested in the topic many years ago, and between all of those lucid instances I have seen very different situations, so this could very well be a temporary issue. When you say it was an instant blackout, do you mean that you then woke up, or what did you mean if not that?

[Lokoloi]

This is more like a 10-15 dream pattern, haha. At the very least, it's happened every lucid I've gotten in the last 3 months. I will try the hand thing though. It's just an instant wakeup but I say blackout because suddenly it's just my closed eyes which is typically black.

[DarkestDarkness]

Thanks for the clarification on the blackout thing. And okay. Well, besides looking at the hands like Hilary suggested, rubbing them together can help too. From your original post I get the impression that you can't predict when this issue will actually happen/begin whilst you're dreaming, do you think it might help to perhaps remember to stabilise before you actually really needed it? That is to say, to sort of stabilise "early".

[Lokoloi]

do you think it might help to perhaps remember to stabilise before you actually really needed it? That is to say, to sort of stabilise "early". I thought that's what I was doing. As soon as I enter the dream i begin stabilizing myself but the dream ends before I can finish, I guess. I'm stimulating all my senses and usually my sense of touch doesn't really do much for me. I've tried rubbing my hands together in the past and nothing really came of it; same with touching things in my environment. It worked for a little but got diminishing returns really fast for some reason. Like, I'd be rubbing my hands together, and then the dream would clear up very slightly and then just end.

[andreasdevig]

You could try dream chaining. I've never done it myself but.

[Hilary]

Another suggestion. Because you say this is a 10-15 dream pattern. That is concerning because it should be getting better naturally. Sometimes I think our brain gets stuck in patterns and the pattern can be self-sustaining. Here is what I would do if it were me, if the close-up hands does not work - I would plan a WBTB + a galantamine. I would make a strong attempt to get lucid. The galantamine can really help not only with getting lucid, but with staying lucid (at least, for a little while). The idea is to break the cycle of instantly waking up when becoming lucid. Re-set your brain, then you can set a new pattern. You could also try mantras or making intentions to stay lucid. "I stay lucid when I realize I am dreaming" or something to that effect. Other than that, I would look at what might be the source of the awakenings. It might not be a stabilization problem, but perhaps a emotional spike. Or something else. Hard to say.. Good luck. *Disclaimer: do your research before using any supplement, including galantamine.

[Lokoloi]

Another suggestion. Because you say this is a 10-15 dream pattern. That is concerning because it should be getting better naturally. Sometimes I think our brain gets stuck in patterns and the pattern can be self-sustaining. Here is what I would do if it were me, if the close-up hands does not work - I would plan a WBTB + a galantamine. I would make a strong attempt to get lucid. The galantamine can really help not only with getting lucid, but with staying lucid (at least, for a little while). The idea is to break the cycle of instantly waking up when becoming lucid. Re-set your brain, then you can set a new pattern. You could also try mantras or making intentions to stay lucid. "I stay lucid when I realize I am dreaming" or something to that effect. Other than that, I would look at what might be the source of the awakenings. It might not be a stabilization problem, but perhaps a emotional spike. Or something else. Hard to say.. Good luck. *Disclaimer: do your research before using any supplement, including galantamine. OK, I've tried Galantamine with middling results. I'm thinking the supplement I got was fake or something. Do you have any recommendations as to where I can get some real galantamine? I've heard good tings about GalantaMind. (I say fake because as I understand it, because it's a dietary supplement and not monitored by the FDA, companies can technically say that their product has something in it but are really misleading about it. I think the stuff i bought wasn't really 8mg tablets of galantamine. It was probably closer to a tablet with 8mg of something that just so happened to include galantamine.)

[Hilary]

OK, I've tried Galantamine with middling results. I'm thinking the supplement I got was fake or something. Do you have any recommendations as to where I can get some real galantamine? I've heard good tings about GalantaMind. (I say fake because as I understand it, because it's a dietary supplement and not monitored by the FDA, companies can technically say that their product has something in it but are really misleading about it. I think the stuff i bought wasn't really 8mg tablets of galantamine. It was probably closer to a tablet with 8mg of something that just so happened to include galantamine.) I would definitely make sure you're buying from a reputable company. Amazon reviews can let you know if the product is genuine and working for people. I personally think a fake supplement would be rare, as galantamine is often synthetically produced, therefore not too expensive too make. I have Dreamtech. It works well. For me, 4 mg may or may not result in lucidity, but 8 mg always does. Assuming I haven't taken it recently. For me, it will only work ~once a week max. Tolerance builds very quickly.

[Lokoloi]

Interesting. I was reading through that thread about whether supplements actually work and you said that while using galantamine, lucid dreams will be short and unstable. Considering that's my problem right now, I don't think I'll go this route.

[Hilary]

Interesting. I was reading through that thread about whether supplements actually work and you said that while using galantamine, lucid dreams will be short and unstable. Considering that's my problem right now, I don't think I'll go this route. They can be. Here's how it works for me. Galantamine is short lived. It gives you a STRONG SPARK. However, if you are out of practice, then it will not work as well. If you are in good practice, it can take your lucid dreams to the next level. You need the mental training to go with it. Additionally, galantamine can wear off quickly and yes, I have experienced unstable dreams (probably out of practice). However - the dreams don't fall apart instantly. You're going to get a boost from it, just not a long-term boost necessarily. You're not going to have an unstable lucid dream and lose it within the first few seconds due to galantamine. You'll get that much time for sure. If your dream falls apart that quickly, it's probably not the galantamine, but whatever else is causing the issue. Make sense? I would also add that YMMV. It affects everyone differently.

[Lokoloi]

Ok, I get it. I've been practicing for like 3 months so it should work wonders, lol. So for supplements, I think I'm going to get galantamine from that company you mentioned, as well as something called "Acetylcholine Brain Food with Alpha GPC Choline" from this company called Natural Stacks. They have good reviews and seem legit so hopefully that'll prove to help. I guess I'll try them one at a time first, then combine them if I'm not seeing results. If that doesn't work then I guess it's back to square one. I'm a little hesitant when it comes to supplements but honestly I don't see many natural ways of overcoming this. Hope it works out but I'm down for more solutions lol.

[Hilary]

Ok, I get it. I've been practicing for like 3 months so it should work wonders, lol. So for supplements, I think I'm going to get galantamine from that company you mentioned, as well as something called "Acetylcholine Brain Food with Alpha GPC Choline" from this company called Natural Stacks. They have good reviews and seem legit so hopefully that'll prove to help. I guess I'll try them one at a time first, then combine them if I'm not seeing results. If that doesn't work then I guess it's back to square one. I'm a little hesitant when it comes to supplements but honestly I don't see many natural ways of overcoming this. Hope it works out but I'm down for more solutions lol. 1. I would definitely be careful about combining the supplements. That's a lot, one blocks the breaking down of choline, the other boosts choline levels in the brain. Together, they are synergistic. Definitely research before combining. Personally? I wouldn't even do that at all. I would pick 1 only. (Edit: Although for the record, I have taken both once without harm - at minimal doses). 2. With only 3 months of practice, I think this is not something that can't be overcome with natural methods. 3 months is nothing, really. It can take easily 6 months to have a stable lucid dream. Now, if you were someone who lucid dreamed regularly, and then had this happen (which is what I assumed when I first responded - my mistake there), then I would be more concerned about the pattern. As it is? Being this new, this is not unusual. You're just in the beginning phases of developing awareness and the ability to stay in the dream. Given that information, I would personally recommend continuing practice as you have been. You've made progress by just getting lucid - even if you've been struggling with staying in the dream. I would add in exercises that target intention setting. Mantras, visualizing stabilizing the dream, visualize staying in the dream, write out a dream journal entry as if you got lucid and effectively stabilized. Work on your ability to maintain calm and emotional detachment in all situations. Etc. You can try galantamine, it's a great substance when used in moderation, however, keep in mind - it's not going to help you much if you're missing the foundational skills. It's really good to build up a natural foundation for lucid dreaming FIRST, before using a short cut. Plus it's very possible that it won't solve the problem, as the problem may not actually be a pattern, but just that you're still developing basic skills.

[Lokoloi]

Well I guess I should specify again, lol. I've been practicing lucid dreaming for like 3-4 years now, haha. It's only until 3 months ago that I started actually making progress for some reason. It just started working. So, to cut down on frustration for failed attempts, if I just think, "Well, I've only been trying for 3 months" instead of three years, then it doesn't hurt as much. "You're just in the beginning phases of developing awareness and the ability to stay in the dream." Despite my hundreds of attempts, this is true, haha. See, conceptually, it makes sense too. Even though I learned a lot throughout my 3-4 year journey, For some reason, I just couldn't get lucid at all. I tried so many methods for different periods of time. I was meditating, Dream journaling, RCing, the whole shebang, and still, maybe an accidental lucid once every 3 or four months if I was lucky. In 2020 though, I started to make some progress. After I got two LDs in the same week using the same technique, I thought I had finally surpassed that block, but I was wrong because I didn't get another lucid after 4 more months of trying. Every now and then, like 1-6 months, I'd get a random lucid that i wasn't prepared for. Then, out of nowhere, I decided to try WILD again. I hadn't dream journaled, meditated, or reality checked in a while(and still dont). For some reason, I just knew what to do this time. It's not like I didn't before, but I did the whole process and it worked. I then replicated the success the night after, something that never happened before. Ever since then, I guess 4 months ago now, It's only been about 2 weeks in between lucids. It's now that everything I learned in those past years can be put to use, and so that's why I say 3 months ago. So yeah, "(which is what I assumed when I first responded - my mistake there)" no, technically you were right lmao I still agree with the basic premise though. "It can take easily 6 months to have a stable lucid dream" is probably still true. I was just saying stuff about combining because in that thread i was talking about earlier, everyone was saying they were combining galantamine with choline or Alpha GPC so I was like "I guess it's the move".

[DarkestDarkness]

I thought that's what I was doing. As soon as I enter the dream i begin stabilizing myself but the dream ends before I can finish, I guess. I'm stimulating all my senses and usually my sense of touch doesn't really do much for me. Maybe we're thinking in the wrong direction then and perhaps the problem is of the opposite nature. Because if that's the case, do you think it's possible that you're almost trying too hard and therefore waking yourself up without realising? Because stabilisation is kind of like rousing of awareness and it may be that you're actually pushing yourself awake... I really can't say, I'm not you and I'm not in your dreams after all, but maybe something to think about. I think the stuff i bought wasn't really 8mg tablets of galantamine. It was probably closer to a tablet with 8mg of something that just so happened to include galantamine.) It's worth mentioning two things here. One, supplements and their effect really do vary from person to person, very much like any prescription medication. Two, almost everything that's a tablet, pill or capsule is mostly a bulking agent rather than the actual medication/supplement; only a very small part of them are the actual active component that "matters". The bulking agents are more formally known to be excipients. Well I guess I should specify again, lol. I've been practicing lucid dreaming for like 3-4 years now, haha. It's only until 3 months ago that I started actually making progress for some reason. It just started working. So, to cut down on frustration for failed attempts, if I just think, "Well, I've only been trying for 3 months" instead of three years, then it doesn't hurt as much. I still agree with the basic premise though. I was just saying stuff about combining because in that thread i was talking about earlier, everyone was saying they were combining galantamine with choline or Alpha GPC so I was like "I guess it's the move". Like Hilary says, caution with supplements is a good idea, especially if you're thinking of combining anything, do a lot of research and start small with whatever you do. As I just said after all, different people have different reactions to things, so don't expect anything, positive or negative, just be cautious about it. As for practise of lucid dreaming, I've been actively thinking and trying things for the purpose of lucid dreaming for almost ten years now and I've seen very little "success" in that sense, though I feel I may be an anomaly in that respect. However, the practise has greatly improved my appreciation of all the other aspects of dreaming too. In that many years, I have found no quick or long-term solution for a lack of lucidity. You have obviously had some good success in the last 3 months. 15 lucid dreams in 3 months is more lucid dreams than I've had in 3 years. Please pardon me if I'm making an assumption, but I think you may be looking too much into the "next step" of the journey so to speak. You can appreciate that brief lucidity is still something over no lucidity. And you can feel confident that you're not doing so badly.

[Lokoloi]

Please pardon me if I'm making an assumption, but I think you may be looking too much into the "next step" of the journey so to speak. You can appreciate that brief lucidity is still something over no lucidity. And you can feel confident that you're not doing so badly. That's actually kinda spot on. The way I see it, there's at least 2 phases every lucid dreamer goes through: the achievement phase, characterized by just trying to attain lucidity, and the exploration phase, characterized by being able to achieve lucidity whenever desired, with a main focus on exploring what dreams have to offer. For the vast majority of the 3-4 years, I was in the achievement phase. as of the last 3-4 months, I'm in this weird transitional state that i thought would only last a couple of dreams. In terms of getting lucid, I'm pretty confident that getting into a lucid won't be much of a problem in the coming weeks. However, I'm still not in a place where I can experiment with and explore the potential of my dreams just yet. As I'm writing this, I'm thinking there might be 3 phases. I'm not worried about achieving lucidity for the most part, but I can't really explore just yet. I don't have the freedom that I imagine explorers to have... Now that I can achieve lucidity, I suppose my main goal now is to learn to maintain it, to stabilize myself within the dream. (maybe call it the Stabilization Phase) do you think it's possible that you're almost trying too hard and therefore waking yourself up without realising? Because stabilisation is kind of like rousing of awareness and it may be that you're actually pushing yourself awake... Definitely something to think about. Maybe I should just try to enjoy the fleeting experience, kinda like life. Maybe you're right, and maybe I am trying too hard. Every time I get into a dream, I'm focused solely on stabilizing myself, but maybe that's the wrong approach. Maybe, if I go exploring the dream, then the stability will come naturally. Now that I think of it, the hurry to stabilize does stress me out. I wanna make the most of the experience, so I thought that stabilizing first would be a good idea. But so far, it's just yielded basically the same dream every time, me in my room trying to stabilize when the dream just ends when I could have been lookin around tryna do stuff.

[Hilary]

Hey, I would love to hear about your technique for WILD that is giving you a lot of success. Perhaps you wouldn't mind making a thread about it sometime? I think your attitude here is good. Relaxing on things is going to get you a lot further than stressing. And that is so true especially with lucid dreaming.

[Lokoloi]

Hey, I would love to hear about your technique for WILD that is giving you a lot of success. Perhaps you wouldn't mind making a thread about it sometime? Well, I don't think it's really too complicated or that it deviates too far from the norm but sure, I might churn one out. But I'll put it simply here. You know I love my phases of things, it's just how I think. WILD to me is a 3 phase technique: Awakening (which includes Time Awake), Relaxation, and the Dive. Awakening There are two factors that matter here: Time asleep, and Time Awake. Time asleep I find doesn't really matter as much so long as it's more than 4 hours. Time awake is the bread and butter. I'm a light sleeper so it's as minimal as possible for me. Literally, I wake up, stand up out of my bed, and lay back down, unless i gotta use the bathroom or I'm thirsty. Relaxation Because I wasn't awake for very long, I don't have to spend too much time relaxing. To relax, I just do four lower back stretches for about 10-15 seconds each. Then, I lay down in a comfortable position and do a specific breathing pattern. I count to 10, odd numbers on inhale, even numbers on exhale. Dive In my opinion, the most important part. I repeatedly think my mantra "I am Dreaming". Every now and then, I check to see what my mind is imagining. If it's in my mind's eye, It's back to mantra. If I can actually see it in front of me, then I prepare for the dive. Usually I get pulled in. lately, I haven't really used my mantra that much, and simply watch the back of my eyelids while I wait for the dive. I was told that there was a balancing act you had to do with time awake, where more time awake means more awareness but harder to sleep, whereas less would be less awareness but easier to sleep. Turns out, if you want it badly enough, you can just ignore the whole "Less awareness" downside of low time awake, making the whole thing easier. That's just my WILD attempt, though. What I do now, which is what got me my two last night, is actually 2 techniques. CANWILD, and if it doesn't work, I just WILD. (Additionally, when doing wild, I now lay on my back.) I actually tried CANWILD last year but it rarely worked, but now I know why. If you don't know, it's basically WILD, but when you wake up, you don't move. You skip straight to the dive. It needs an alarm with an Auto Dismissal feature though, easily acquired through an android app called "Alarm Clock XTreme". Not sure how to do it on iPhone. Now, it can work in like 10 seconds, but it also might take up to 10 minutes for me, basically just becoming a WILD but at least you skipped relaxation. At the time I thought that if you took longer than a minute you failed and I gave up. I do not think that now. Anyway, what I did last night was CANWILD, but it failed as I woke up in a uncomfortable position, or so I thought. I really tried to work with what I had and ended up getting a DILD. Then when I awoke from the DILD, I did WILD. Then I got my second dream. CANWILD is a recent development; for all my other successes in the 3-4 month span up to this point it was just the WILD mentioned above.

[FryingMan]

Your rapid waking could be a deep-seated expectation, perhaps even brought on by the act of stabilizing. Do you have long non-lucid dreams? How vivid, clear, and stable are your non-lucids? Do you recall them in high detail? Do you love dreaming as a whole, and treasure and enjoy all your dreams, or do you feel that a non-lucid dream is a "failure?" Of course, late morning LDs could be just that: your mind is already in the final stages of waking up, and you just manage to get lucid while still within the dream. In this case, there's often very little you can do. I have lost LDs when I stopped to stabilize, on more than one occasion. My longest and most stable LDs are when I'm engaged in the dream, having fun, and working through dream goals. You could work on day practice of visualize getting lucid in a dream, and acknowledging the fact while generating a (calm) feeling of joy, and just moving around within the dream environment. I find that "retreating into my head" sometimes leads to waking. "Physical" movement through the dream environment for me helps to deepen the engagement. In short, I recommend on emphasizing a general "dream practice," where you're also trying to get lucid, but if you don't, it's no big deal. When you have less invested in achieving full lucidity, but forming a deep and significant relationship with your dreams, the longer LDs will come along naturally, I'd wager. BTW, everyone dreams differently, but most of my highest quality LDs and epic, long non-LDs, typically come at about the 6 hour mark. Approaching closer to 8 hours of sleep, I find that dream awareness begins to drop rather than increase.

[Lokoloi]

Your rapid waking could be a deep-seated expectation, perhaps even brought on by the act of stabilizing. Do you have long non-lucid dreams? How vivid, clear, and stable are your non-lucids? Do you recall them in high detail? Do you love dreaming as a whole, and treasure and enjoy all your dreams, or do you feel that a non-lucid dream is a "failure?" This is actually hilarious because I came to this conclusion myself About a day after. I was reading through a post I made a year ago on the LD subreddit where I talk about how excitement doesn't have to wake you up. I read a comment that said something like, "It’s so strange how many “truths” there are to lucid dreaming, that are likely down to just our beliefs and expectations about how the dream world should function." And then I thought, maybe this is true for stabilization... I mean, why do I stabilize? Well, to prevent the dream from collapsing. Well, why does the dream collapse? Because that's what happens to dreams. Not to non-lucids. Well Lucids are different, but are they really? Is it a coincidence that my longest lucid dreams are ones where I didn't stabilize? Is it a coincidence that whenever I go to stabilize myself, the dream ends? After thinking on it for a while, I don't think so. I think that a lucid dream wont end unless you want it to, or unless you think it will, and when I rush to stabilize, it implies that I think the dream will collapse if I don't. So yes, I think it's my problem here. And, even if it isn't, I'm gonna do what I want to do and have fun with the time I have in the dream. And yeah, I think I will take up DJing again at least. I'll see if I can stop treating LDs and NLDs as separate roads of progression.