Thread: OOBE's proved wrong

PROVE to me that man did not lie about his experiment. Prove to me he did not know the pattern his subjects eyes allways move in sleep and fake his results. PROVE to me that lucid dreams exist? It can not be done. PROVE to me that because near death, sufficated people see visions like OBE that they did not in fact have them or that the one thing (thier visions) disprove the possibilty of another. I think people who want to yell OBE does not exist honestly just want the world to fit thier own relious beliefs.

why do people dismiss these obes and near death experience...have they never looked further beyond there nose. do they not understand that we are living on a lump of rock spinning in space that goes on forever.so they made someone have a nde by messing with there brain,how does that prove its only a dream,how do they know that what they done to the brain was a way of unlocking the door to whatever happens when we die, who knows?

It's their opinion on what they believe, just like your opinion on believing OBE/NDE's. I'm glad people doubt it...what kind of world would we live in if everyone believed in everything everyone else believed in? The fact is, when we are dead for good we will know if all of this is true, or not. Or we wont because you will be nothingness.

Talk talk talk.
It doesn't do anything on this subject. Your wasting your time and lives.


If you believe in OOBEs then thats fine, have fun being a superhuman that can see any event of your choosing whenever you feel like it.

If you don't believe in OOBEs then too bad for you I guess, your just going to have to live in this shitty little unexciting place we call real life. Have fun.

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People that can OOBE: why the hell do you care if we don't believe you? In your mind your better than us anyway, while we sit around and tell ourselves that our world is a little predicable piece of horse dung you get to fly around in outerspace really exploring new worlds and species.
The last thing you should be worried about is whether or not some ignorant hypocrites believe that what your doing is real.

People that don't believe: Quit bitching about how OOBEs are bullshit. You believe they're bullshit? Great, good for you. In your opinion all these "idiots" who believe that OOBEs are real are like children. Your soooo much better then them, you aren't a crazy person that believes everything they perceive.
Be happy of that fact. If someone your talking to tells you that they believe in OOBEs then just tell them why you don't and leave it at that.

We all have our own beliefs, I believe that OOBEs could be possible but not very likely.
Why do I believe this? Because I don't think I'd be very happy if I believed what everything I've ever known is telling me:
We're just a bunch of self-aware biological machines that are going to stop taking in information someday --We're all just going to die. No pretty lights, no infinite bliss. Just blackness and total unconsciousness.



We all have to find our own ways to cope with death. Lets all just let one another believe whatever the hell we want.
Of course, that shouldn't stop you from telling other WHY you believe what you believe. Just remember that these belief systems are what keep us from commiting suicide on a daily basis. They're pretty much completely ingrained into the core of our mind.
Its not very likely I'm going to start believing we all go to Disneyland when we die just because some two year old told me so.

Originally Posted by BillyBob_001

We all have to find our own ways to cope with death. Lets all just let one another believe whatever the hell we want.
Of course, that shouldn't stop you from telling other WHY you believe what you believe. Just remember that these belief systems are what keep us from commiting suicide on a daily basis. They're pretty much completely ingrained into the core of our mind.

I would be perfectly fine with innocent, happifying theories which did nothing more than keep people from defenestration. The problem arises when these theories are jeopardized by the tireless advance of scientific knowledge. You're certainly right about them being ingrained in the core of our minds. This sort of thing becomes a big problem when people begin to grasp at straws, trying to twist the world every which way in order to maintain their fairy tale happy endings. Granted, we are at a point right now where very little can conclusively be said about the mind, but this brand of stubborn, faith-based reasoning has done nothing but harm in the past. I, for one, will continue to endeavor to keep people from becoming too convinced of their happifying theories, no matter what they may be. So long as an element of doubt is maintained, all is well. But one can't help but talk, talk, talk when people run around claiming to know the unknowable - for sure.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

I would be perfectly fine with innocent, happifying theories which did nothing more than keep people from defenestration. The problem arises when these theories are jeopardized by the tireless advance of scientific knowledge. You're certainly right about them being ingrained in the core of our minds. This sort of thing becomes a big problem when people begin to grasp at straws, trying to twist the world every which way in order to maintain their fairy tale happy endings. Granted, we are at a point right now where very little can conclusively be said about the mind, but this brand of stubborn, faith-based reasoning has done nothing but harm in the past. I, for one, will continue to endeavor to keep people from becoming too convinced of their happifying theories, no matter what they may be. So long as an element of doubt is maintained, all is well. But one can't help but talk, talk, talk when people run around claiming to know the unknowable - for sure.

But are you really helping once you get into the area of flame wars?

Its perfectly fine to state your hypothesis on why you personally feel your view is the correct one and what you find to be faults of logic in their judgment of "the truth"
The problem is when it gets into name calling and telling the other person that he or she is a moron just because so far what they've witnessed in their reality hasn't yet shown them the truth that you've personally found (maybe it never will).


Your never going change someones opinion of whats true and whats not by laughing at them and telling them they're stupid just because they believe what they do.
You change opinions by politely stating every possible morsel of obvious logical truth and letting them go over it themselves and figure it out on their own.

Maybe they don't figure it out even after you tell them everything... You've planted a seed that may or may not blossom in the future when they hear this argument again.
People don't change they're views of reality very easily or quickly. Chances are I'm not going to read a post (no matter how flawlessly intelligent and obvious it makes it that I'm an idiot for believing what I do) and suddenly completely change my outlook on reality. It just doesn't happen.
(Just like I bet you were scoffing the whole time you were reading this )

Come on guys, LDs have been proven.

The brainwave machines showed Laberge's brain when in REM sleep and he carried out a select few eye movements that he and the scientists agreed on. That basically means it's proven. He'd have to have a conscious grip in his dreams to even remember to do that.

I've had LDs and I know without a doubt that they are real. They're FAR different from normal dreams, and far more intense. I'd say they're more intense than real life itself.

Originally Posted by BillyBob_001

Your never going change someones opinion of whats true and whats not by laughing at them and telling them they're stupid just because they believe what they do.
You change opinions by politely stating every possible morsel of obvious logical truth and letting them go over it themselves and figure it out on their own.

I completely agree, mindless ad hominem arguments are useless (though sometimes fun) in the long run. I'm just saying that I don't think we should stop discussing the issue at any point, or let people think they've found the ultimate answer without at least challenging them a bit.

Originally Posted by lvlindless

http://youtube.com/watch?v=714AS39CQ_I

I knew it, there's no such thing as Near Death or Out of Body experiences.

Apparently all they are, are extremely vivid and dreamlike delusional hallucinations due to nutrient and blood loss from the brain. So... the ultimate lucid dreams.

That situation You described sounds an awful lot like the near death situation. Lack of oxygen, blood, nutrient, whatever. I don't see what's so weird with near death experiences occurring by using one of those near death situations.
They don't really get into kinds of OBE or near death experiences. Many claim to see something happening in other places which turns out to be true. I don't claim this is true but ignoring it completely is a bit sloppy
The worst part: You trust the watch instead of the experience...
How can the apparent conclusion that it's all a trick of the mind prove it is not 'real'? Because reality isn't a trick of the mind?

Originally Posted by Mocari

That situation You described sounds an awful lot like the near death situation. Lack of oxygen, blood, nutrient, whatever. I don't see what's so weird with near death experiences occurring by using one of those near death situations.
They don't really get into kinds of OBE or near death experiences. Many claim to see something happening in other places which turns out to be true. I don't claim this is true but ignoring it completely is a bit sloppy
The worst part: You trust the watch instead of the experience...
How can the apparent conclusion that it's all a trick of the mind prove it is not 'real'? Because reality isn't a trick of the mind?

All I'm saying is that when you have an OBE you really aren't... "out of body", it's all in your head. Just a very vivid dream in which you are extremely self aware. I didn't say they weren't "real." Lucid dreams are completely real to YOU, but that doesn't mean they actually happened. It's a different kind of real I'm trying to point out is false, a real that exists in the physical world.

Yeah. That's not proof.
That's like saying that you have found proof that aliens don't exist.
Whether they do or don't, you can never prove their INexistence.

The words "I know..." are best spoken by fools.

Ugh, I've seen that joke video before.

There's a *small* problem. If OBE's are nothing more than dreamlike states, than how, praytell, do people who have no brainwave activity have OBE's?

People with no discernable brainwave activities have reported OBE's. I've yet to see any of these skeptics confront that problem and explain it.

I was watching a show where a scientist who believed that OBE's are just dreams/hallucinations, and everyone of the people on the show said their OBE's felt unique, they did not feel like dreams.

Anyone interested in paranormal or OBE experience should read up on the career of Susan Blackmoore.
She is an English scientist who at a young age experienced a convincing OBE.
She then decided to spend her career trying to find evidence to prove various paranormal experiences. In the 80s she was somewhat famous in the field.

Eventually, as a GOOD scientist and a person with a flexible, humble mind.
She finally gave up on looking for evidence. Because after a career of searching, after a long futile fight coming up again and again with the same fuzzy logic, charlatans, and deluded people. She couldn't find any evidence to support thier claims.

If find her story fascinating, because she was coming from the perspective of a BELIVER, not a skeptic. She wanted to prove these things. BUT because she was a good scientist, one who accepted the evidence, eventually she became very skeptical.

here's a short article by her explaining herself: http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html

I recommend reading other material on her site (there is some on lucid dreaming) she's a very intelligent genuine woman. A scientist in the true sense of the word.

oh i spelt her name wrong it's Susan Blackmore,

And here's an article of hers on lucid dreaming....

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/si91ld.html

Fantastic woman.

Originally Posted by scubba

i wish i could stab you, your an idiot. They can prove LDing because you can learn from it. You can see things hidden just like RVing in astral projection, and guess what? the goverment has RVers to find "st0ff".And yes RVing is proven you homo.


FLAMED!

What the hell are you talking about?? I didnt say one damned
thing about proof!! I only said LDs are far more 'believable' for the
layman to believe, then OOBE's are, because theyre dreams....true
OOBE's are not, theyre paranormal.


Also I will read the articles from Susan Blackmore.

Originally Posted by lvlindless

http://youtube.com/watch?v=714AS39CQ_I

I knew it, there's no such thing as Near Death or Out of Body experiences.

Apparently all they are, are extremely vivid and dreamlike delusional hallucinations due to nutrient and blood loss from the brain. So... the ultimate lucid dreams.

I assume you never had a OBE before?

I almost did once.

I woke up one night in SP, i started lucid dreaming, woke up, lucid dream, ect.

Then i woke up one time, and i felt my spirit attempting to leave my body....

I was wide awake and not hallucinating. When you experience that for the first time, you will know its real

I still of course have not left my body, but one day, i'm not ready just yet. But it is real.

Originally Posted by TheMoon

I assume you never had a OBE before?

I almost did once.

I woke up one night in SP, i started lucid dreaming, woke up, lucid dream, ect.

Then i woke up one time, and i felt my spirit attempting to leave my body....

I was wide awake and not hallucinating. When you experience that for the first time, you will know its real

I still of course have not left my body, but one day, i'm not ready just yet. But it is real.

I expect you were fast asleep and having a convincing false awakening.

There is a good rule to use in life: the simplest answer is normally the right one.

Which requires less leaps of faith, assumptions, and revising of the basic laws of physics?

a) you were dreaming, a very vivid dream that you had woken up, then in the dream you dreamt you were leaving your body. (of course you could have been in sleep paralysis and entering the dreaming state)

b) there is a soul, that soul can exist independantly of the body (despite there being no evidence and it defying all laws of physics and biology) - AND that you just happened to have woken from a dream (coincidence??? - what with dreaming being a very convincing experience) and then "left your body"

Explanation (a) requires no new laws of physics and fits perfectly into what we know about the universe.
Explanation (b) requires rewriting almost all the major sciences.

What is more likely?
Hundreds of years of human science being wrong (the same science that you daily use, for your phone, television, car, even talking here online)
Or you incorrectly assuming you were awake.
?

It's a little arrogant to think "the whole world is wrong and i'm right."

Remember that being convinced by something don't make it true.
Just ask any person who has suffered extreme mental illness.
Not to mention, the whole area of lucid dreaming is about learning to understand that how real something feels has no actual standing on how real something is. That's why we do reality checks.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

a) you were dreaming, a very vivid dream that you had woken up, then in the dream you dreamt you were leaving your body. (of course you could have been in sleep paralysis and entering the dreaming state)

No i was awake, i know the difference between a false awaking and being awake.

Ive been having lucid dreams and false awakenings my whole life.

I was awake in the real world and felt my spirit leaving my body.

You of course don't have to believe me, but anyone who has had a OBE will know this to be true

Another thing, when your in a False Awaking, you think your really awake in real life at that time. However, when you wake up you realize that it was just a FA....

If it was just a FA i had, i would not be talking in this thread right now.

Explanation (b) requires rewriting almost all the major sciences.

Well we shouldn't keep going on believing in a false reality just because we don't want to rewrite the science books to express the truth rather then false facts.

It's a little arrogant to think "the whole world is wrong and i'm right."

It doesn't matter either way if i'm wrong or right, the worlds still turning, and one day we will all be dead. So its better now to learn about whats going to happen when we die, then to live in ignorance and never learn what may be, until its too late to learn anymore.

Ignorance is bliss, until the box you put yourself in falls apart, and your not ready to accept what is really true and what really is not true.

I don't know for a fact if we have spirits or not. But i feel its ignorant to think that's its not a possibility. And to dismiss what everyone says just because you don't want the box you built around yourself to fall down

Originally Posted by TheMoon

No i was awake, i know the difference between a false awaking and being awake.

Ive been having lucid dreams and false awakenings my whole life.

I was awake in the real world and felt my spirit leaving my body.

You of course don't have to believe me, but anyone who has had a OBE will know this to be true

Another thing, when your in a False Awaking, you think your really awake in real life at that time. However, when you wake up you realize that it was just a FA....

If it was just a FA i had, i would not be talking in this thread right now.



Well we shouldn't keep going on believing in a false reality just because we don't want to rewrite the science books to express the truth rather then false facts.



It doesn't matter either way if i'm wrong or right, the worlds still turning, and one day we will all be dead. So its better now to learn about whats going to happen when we die, then to live in ignorance and never learn what may be, until its too late to learn anymore.

Ignorance is bliss, until the box you put yourself in falls apart, and your not ready to accept what is really true and what really is not true.

I don't know for a fact if we have spirits or not. But i feel its ignorant to think that's its not a possibility. And to dismiss what everyone says just because you don't want the box you built around yourself to fall down

How rude of you to assume i dismiss what everyone says, or that i am "in a box"

Actually i'd give anything for such things to be true.
HOWEVER. I want the way i see the world to be based on facts and truth.
If something i want to believe in turns out to be false, im willing to move on and let it go, not to try and make the world fit my view.

I am 40 years old. For my whole life i've studied these sorts of things.
I have yet once to have found anything that even comes close to evidence of these things being true.

Yes there are plenty of stories.
But almost all of them fall apart when you scratch the surface.

I'd rather live in a world of reality than a world of fantasy, that's why i keep asking questions, i want to get to the bottom of it.
If there is another realm beyond death, then brilliant i'll be the happiest person alive. I will not however, accept dodgey facts, or just "faith"

If there were some kind of OBE experience, why do we not see it in the natural world?
Wouldn't it be a massive evolutionary advantage for a hunter or prey to be able to astral travel and see where its prey is before it hunts?
Everything else in nature that has a use has been taken advantage of by evolution. Yet i dont see any psychic lions.

Oddly enough. What you don't know is that i have had a full scale OBE in my life (back when i was 25).
It wasnt just waking up from a dream. It occured during surgery gone wrong (car crash), and i was actually clinically dead for about a minute.
Utterly convincing in every respect. However when i double checked things i'd "seen" out of the body. I discovered they were false
So don't try and tell me that just by having an experience it'll convince you.
It felt utterly real, I belived it to be true. However i took the time to investigate it, and the facts didn't hold up. I had to rethink what had happened to me.
I still don't have an answer, but im more convinced it was some kind of mental phenomena. After all where do you think you experience "waking life" anyway? it's all just processed in your mind. The convincing reality you are seeing right now, is actually your minds model of it.

Also, later in life i experienced a chemical used by shamans in the amazons, which gave me an identical experience to my out of body experience. Again completely convincing. I do wonder how a chemical can effect the "soul" i know for sure it effects the processing of the mind.

So don't assume im closed minded just because i don't agree with you.
In fact im very open minded. I just rather that i dont fool myself by wishful thinking, and come away with solid hard facts. So that i can prove things to others. Not on faith, but on blatant facts. I've yet to find anythign that comes close.

Youtube.....