Thread: Do dream charecters think?

Originally Posted by Maeni

Persons around you are not real entities, just some imaginary objects, they could as well be a stone with a mouth that can talk, you make it up.

"Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"

If you can get it past the dogs, mail me some. I need a vacation.

Philosopher, you tend to speak using fascinating and impressive words that are incredibly hard to interpret.
I believe I'm not the only one who got the impression that you were trying to seem more sophisticated, clever and philosophical, but now you threw all that overboard and instead turned to sarcasm and blatant denial of pdiddles' idea? If I was completely sure that I was right in my feelings about you, I'd tell you to get off your high horse, but who knows, maybe you actually are smart.

Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

If you can get it past the dogs, mail me some. I need a vacation.

You're going to have to reword that, I didn't understand it.
And you're definitely going to have to reword the last post on page 1 aswell~ Maybe I've just grown to actually expect to not understand a single thing of your posts that my brain automatically shuts down every time I see one of your posts.

Are you blaming me for your education or your intelligence or both?

I'm saying that there's a chance that I'm simply not intelligent or educated enough to understand your enlightened words, in which case you are not to blame for any of it.
Or, you're deliberately being incomprehensible so you seem more intelligent than others, while you might actually be just as smart as everyone else. This gives off the vibe that you feel that you are better than everyone else around you, which is also supported by your use of sarcasm and your immediate assumtion that OP is stupid. And that's not only annoying, but it's also not very nice.

I'm honestly not getting you...
I mean,come on!it's common sense...
How can dream characters think?It's not a video game,you're mind controls everything...
If you want them to think,your mind will think for you...
It's a really stupid question...
Hope it helps somehow,
Sam

Originally Posted by Maeni

I'm saying that there's a chance that I'm simply not intelligent or educated enough to understand your enlightened words, in which case you are not to blame for any of it.
Or, you're deliberately being incomprehensible so you seem more intelligent than others, while you might actually be just as smart as everyone else. This gives off the vibe that you feel that you are better than everyone else around you, which is also supported by your use of sarcasm and your immediate assumtion that OP is stupid. And that's not only annoying, but it's also not very nice.

Well, if you are annoyed at such use of language, you would not enjoy either Plato or the Judeo-Christian Scripture.

When I was young, there was a common saying about sticks and stones. Also, when I was raised, I learned that I did not get what I wanted by a temper tantrum but by work.

Now, I study and work on educational projects every day of my life, I work for it, it is you who think you are better because you think it should be given to you at the price of your whining.

Such use of language?

Definition of "language":
a systematic means of communicating by the use of sounds or conventional symbols

Is it really language, is it really communication when people don't understand it? That's gibberish.

Spoiler for S&S, semiserious:

Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words can break hearts.

As for the actual topic, I think it is a mistake to try to judge whether something is conscious or not, as this is impossible in all cases. How can you be sure that you are not the only person in the entire world that is conscious, and that everyone else are just walking around with incredibly advanced artificial intelligence? This is an absurd thought, you may say, yes, but you cannot completely deny the possibility, as there is simply no way to find out. Ask someone; "Are you conscious", obviously they will answer yes, because their brain (incredibly advanced artificial intelligence) tells them to say yes, but they could be lying. However, it only seems reasonable to conclude that if I am conscious, then others probably are, too, after all they are alot like me.
So you could ask, is it reasonable for a DC to be conscious? I'd say no. They are, after all, a fabrication of your own mind (Or are they?), and why would your mind bother to give all those DC's a consciousness of their own? So no, I don't think they're conscious, both because there would be no reason for a human brain to give them consciousness, and because they already are inside someone else's consciousness.

You are definitely not impressive. You don't even understand that what you just said is self-referential, common of the stupidity that passes for knowledge today.

And you must think that I am an idiot, that after all these years that I don't know people, in general, do not understand me. I did not come here looking for what is as plentiful as air, I came here looking for someone very rare.

As I already said, I realize the chance that I'm simply too stupid to understand, but thanks for reminder of that possibility. But there was also the other possibility that you might need to be reminded of, the possibility that you're deliberately being incomprehensible to make yourself feel better than other people. I realize that there could be other reasons for you to be talking gibberish, but this is what I concluded, perhaps a bit assumptious, maybe... But isn't it at least a sign that I might just be slightly intelligent, that I realize that I may be wrong, and that I may not know the entire truth? Didn't some philosopher say something about this~...

Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

And you must think that I am an idiot, that after all these years that I don't know people, in general, do not understand me. I did not come here looking for what is as plentiful as air, I came here looking for someone very rare.

So in other words "I have no time for you foolish mortals!"
And you are quite wrong, I'm sure you are completely aware that people don't understand you.

As long as you enjoy the sound of your own voice, you are in good company.

Are you referring to me or yourself?
If it's the latter, then why are you here?

You realise that insulting people on a level that they do not understand, makes YOU look stupid right?

Originally Posted by Fonzythedog

You realise that insulting people on a level that they do not understand, makes YOU look stupid right?

What is an oxymoron?

It's not an oxymoron. Ones ability to understand language isn't parallel to ones intelligence. And I'm quite certain that we're all capable of reading and understanding english, it's only your english that I find incomprehensible. I cannot see any disadvantages for you to just dumb down your english just a teeny tiny bit, so more people can understand what you are saying?

It is a sad fact of existence, that in every use of language we display our ability, but can never display our meaning.

Now you are again confused as to whose post I quoted. There are two contradictions in it.

Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

It is a sad fact of existence, that in every use of language we display our ability, but can never display our meaning.

Now you are again confused as to whose post I quoted. There are two contradictions in it.

Can't you please just express yourself clearly? I can only assume that you're talking about this:
"You realise that insulting people on a level that they do not understand, makes YOU look stupid right?"

And I made my post based on that assumption. My assumption was wrong? Then please be more clear, or I will keep running into these misunderstandings.

What grade are you in? Don't you know that functionality of the human mind takes time--well into your 20's and some functions do not mature until after the mid 30's? Be patient.

The more advanced a species is, the longer is its childhood. Part of that fact is a child can never imagine what it is to be an adult.

What I see in you as far as real faults are, impatience, rudness and a strong hint of being paranoid.

Maybe someday you will be fortunate and come to understand--it does not matter how a thing is said, or by what words, the only thing one should be interested in is if the words are true or not. And, one will never know that if they cannot comprehend the rudiments of language.

Plato said this this way, appearance versus reality. Christ by Judge not by appearance but by righteous judgment.

The creator of the Scripture by the method used to construct the text, for example the apparent difference between Gen 1 and Gen 3.

If you expect to understand without a great deal of dedication, you are sadly mistaken. In any event, blaming the world for your inability is a simple pain in everyone else's ass.

You talk like my dream characters.

I dont have nightmares.

Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

What grade are you in? Don't you know that functionality of the human mind takes time--well into your 20's and some functions do not mature until after the mid 30's? Be patient.

The more advanced a species is, the longer is its childhood. Part of that fact is a child can never imagine what it is to be an adult.

What I see in you as far as real faults are, impatience, rudness and a strong hint of being paranoid.

You are quite right that my patience have been stretched. After repeatedly trying to understand your posts and failing, I admit I got impatient. Rudeness I will admit aswell. I might have gotten into the realms of sarcasm and subtle hinting, but- Excuse me, but I honestly think you were being rude, that is why I initially posted, I simply found it rude that you so mockingly rejected the OP's idea, after all, you have "Philosopher" in your name; A wise man knows he knows nothing. So I dare say that you are rude.
And paranoia? Perhaps. But may I ask where you got the idea that I would be paranoid from?

Maybe someday you will be fortunate and come to understand--it does not matter how a thing is said, or by what words, the only thing one should be interested in is if the words are true or not.

If it really doesn't matter, then why don't you just use ordinary english?

And, one will never know that if they cannot comprehend the rudiments of language.

Do I have to point out that your posts are the only ones that I've had this much trouble with? Obviously I know english. But I've had no problems comprehending other people's posts in ordinary discussions. If this had happened several times with many people, I'd probably think there was something wrong with my english skills, and I'd work to improve them. But in this case I have one person. One single person that I simply cannot understand. That is part of how I came to the conclusion that you are deliberately doing it to be incomprehensible. Whether this conclusion is true or not, I'm not sure.

Plato said this this way, appearance versus reality. Christ by Judge not by appearance but by righteous judgment.

The creator of the Scripture by the method used to construct the text, for example the apparent difference between Gen 1 and Gen 3.

This just doesn't make any sense. In this example, I dare say it's not even grammatically correct. "Christ by Judge not"? Is there supposed to be a period after "Christ by"?

"The creator of the Scripture by the method used to construct the text"?
The creator of the Scripture... Used the method... To construct the text... By.

Are you simply having fun, or is there any sense in that? Here is 1 sentence. One god damn sentence that I don't understand at all. I simply can't believe that I'm simply not intelligent or educated enough to understand. I think I can safely say that the above 2 quoted sentences are gibberish. If not, then please explain to me how they are not, because gawwwd I must be stupid.

If you expect to understand without a great deal of dedication, you are sadly mistaken. In any event, blaming the world for your inability is a simple pain in everyone else's ass.

Why make it more difficult than it has to be?

Yes, way to be off-topic for a whole page, stop that please <.<
Anyway, a DC is the work of the dreamers mind, so anyhting they think is you thinking, unless there enters BD ideas, but then it is on the wrong section <.<

Since dream characters can be controlled, IMO it's all about speculation and how your brain expects them to react to, well, your own actions. This comes from real-life experiences. If you punch your mother in a non-lucid dream, for instance, she won't just stay still; she'll probably get angry.

Hi,
i still do not know whats happening here
Ok, now we speak about LD here and everybody is happy and believes that LD exists. But if you tell about LD to people who do not believe that, they would say you are crazy. So obviously all depends on our believes. Then if one believes that one's DCs can think, they actually can. Why not? Everything is possible after all.
Another point i would like to speak of is the logic and language. As A. Huxley says in "The doors of perception" and some other modern scientists say the same, the brain is only filtering all the information available to us in order for us to survive on the planet. The language and logic are just means to filter out, to simplify. These two are in a way shrinking our capabilities. The LDs on the other hand is a way the mind to perceive other realities in a different state of mind. So LDs are against the logic. Logic is used only in science, after that logic sucks. But even there they invented fuzzy logic to fill in gaps in the logic
On the previous page someone else and I spoke of meeting other beings, not human which we cant imagine and who have their own not perceivable for us conscience, who have their own will. Beings who act on their own with their own plans. How can logic explain that?
Btw i agree that using overcomplicated language here just adds more confusion in a topic which is confusing anyway. And somebody said that a good scientist is the one who can explain something very complicated in simple to understand words.
Peace out

I still suck at LD and what I'm now talking about is pure speculation on some old memories.


Of course the caracters in your dream are creations of your mind. But that still dosnt make them just "imaginations".

I think the best point to get some usefull basic information are medicil conditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissoci...ntity_disorder

Yes, its not just a nice plot for storys, it realy exists!

I also remember a women that hat for some reason (accident and operation) here brain nearli splitt in two, along the left and the right brain parties. After that she was like two different persons in one boddy.

There is also the Theorie of mind. (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Mind)
And it is hard to tell, how much of such a model or simulation of other persons can become alive by itself. After all our brains (WE) are just neuronal networks. There is no real line betwin data and how to operate on them. Just paterns.

Look some of the more curios brain conditions up any you have raw material for philosophing around...

As for the Consciousness, or better to say Qualia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia) there is just no way to tell...