Thread: The 2012 'Paradigm Shift.' Is it in its beginning stages?

Again, you are stating the obvious.

And, yet, the discussion will continue.

And since you bring up Nibiru, I'll look into that as well, as to how it relates to what's actually going on, currently. The point that you and Xei are failing to grasp is that I Don't care about the insubstantiality of the claims. I am entertaining the idea, and digging into the most popular claims. I don't care if the most popular claims were started by some half-baked, pot-smoking meth-head in Kansas. If it is something that a large number of people actually believe, it is fair game to discuss whether or not it is actually coming to pass, at this time, based on current events.

This, Spartiate, is a classic case of bias getting in the way of understanding. I have made myself very, very clear, and yet the pseudo-skeptics (and I use this term because this refusal to understand the point goes far beyond just being skeptical of the theory) are acting like I'm speaking in tongues.

I have always regarded both you an Xei as intelligent guys, and I'm not disputing the sentiment, but I am growing exceedingly disappointed in you both.

(Perhaps you don't understand that, by looking at the theories in detail, and comparing/contrasting the actual events - not the origins of the theories - I am not only 'lending them credence,' but also 'falsifying them.' I am walking an objective line, straight down the middle. Does this make you feel better? Can we get back on track, now?)

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I mean you can look at all the "predictions"

There is only ONE prediction. The REAL prediction that is being spoken through the living Mayans, represented by Cirilo Perez Oxlaj, highest elder of the living Mayans.

What Cirilo teaches is that we live in a universe where time is cyclical, or, our lives revolve around cycles. Like the seasons, the waning and waxing of the moon. The living Mayans believe we human beings are not separate from these cycles. Just as the sun and moon influence physiological processes in the human being, the Mayans believe other and greater (in scale scope and size) celestial cycles also greatly influence human behavior, down to our evolution as a people.

An apx. 26,000 year long cycle is ending, composed of five ages. A new cycle is beginning come Dec. 21st 2012. That date is significant because, its not just the end of an apx 5000 year long age, but the larger cycle that it belongs to. These cycles aren't arbitrary or imaginary, they correlate to real celestial cycles. The Mayans believe, and not just the Mayans, that with each new age mankind has the capacity to overcome obstacles in the previous age, therefore evolving exponentially as a people.

But this new sun (its a sun cycle) that we are entering is very important. From what I understand, to living Mayans, this new sun marks a time where mankind reaches its greatest potential, and has the capacity to accomplish true global world peace, prosperity and happiness. The reason why it also marks a spiritual age for mankind is simply because none of those things are possible without a complete global paradigm shift.

Its popularly believed by historians that the Mayans just appeared not so long ago, about 2000 years ago. But Cirilo disagrees and says that their texts testify that the Mayan people were here the last time a cycle of the sun ended, apx. 26,000 years ago. Cirilo also explains that many of their ancient texts were hidden from the conquistadors, because the Mayans rightly feared the conquistadors would destroy everything. These texts were given to the Hopi. The Hopi elder has conferred with Cirilo (unless I'm crazy) and has said that yes they have kept ancient and most sacred texts hidden from us, the white mans world.

The Hopi elder also agrees with Cirilo that
1. The Hopis themselves are descendants of the Mayans
2. That the Mayans descend from a much older and ancient civilization than our historians have recognized

Cirilo believes that the reason why the living Mayans can talk about 2012 and what is going to happen is because
1. Time is cyclical, cycles repeat, certain scenarios that happened 26,000 years ago will happen again
2. And because the Mayans, or their descendants, recorded what happened the last time

Cirilo is not exactly clear on what will happen. But he has alluded:
1. The shift is already happening. While 2012 marks the beginning of the New Sun, the Shift into the New Sun has already begun!
2. To everyone waiting for doomsday, what are you waiting for? As far as Cirilo can see the world is already suffering and perishing. How much worse do you want things to get?
3. The shift will NOT happen on Dec. 21st 2012, but it will happen very fast over the course of at least a decade (of which started at least five years ago)
4. Things will happen that might "look" like bad things. But they are only bad if you choose to remain the same. The New Sun will facilitate change, and anyone who tries to hold back change will find themselves suffering (and globally if we hold back change we will perish as a race)
5. Cirilo gives us a few hints, learn to live with Mother Earth, or suffer
6. Cirilo gives us another hint, our happy future relies on the marrying of the guidance and wisdom of ancient cultures with the knowledge and science of the modern world (eagle and condor myth if you ask me!)



To answer Oneironauts question, yes I think current events completely line up with the Mayan prophesy of a New Sun, marked by a global paradigm shift hailing global peace, happiness and abundance for all.

This future is NOT possible without truth, and it is not possible without access to that truth, which is not possible if we aren't a global community. Is there a technology that gives us the capacity to act as a global community, and spread truth as a global community? I'm bloody using it right now!

I'm not saying the shift relies on the internet, but that the internet is going to be a tool for the shift. From wikileaks, to Iran 2009, to recent revolution in Egypt. There is a connection between wikileaks and the latest revolutions in the middle east. The demand for civil rights as you demand truth, understanding that tyrannical control relies on the control of information (deceit). Which is why the internet, a tool where revolutionaries can post the truth of their revolution, was so crucial. Could Egypt have prevailed, if no video could have been posted online? Sure. But not in the way it has prevailed. The struggle would have taken months, years, even decades.

The revolution in Egypt has a global resonance. It took fire spontaneously over night. It was led by the people, not by any organization. It was a successful revolution that only lasted about two 1/2 weeks! That's it! That's not even a month! Think about it! It's virtually unheard of historically!

What happened in Egypt was MODERN. M O D E R N. Its modern for so many reasons Im too lazy to talk about in this post. But modern, in this economy, also means GLOBAL!

Who here ever imagined at the start of 2011 that Egypt would have a historical revolution? No one. I repeat. NO ONE. But it happened, right?

That's what the Shift is like. Sudden. Sudden. Sudden. Sudden! Now Cirilo says we have a choice in this Shift, get on board or get run over!

Originally Posted by Aquanina

- Are natural disasters really increasing at an alarming rate as has been suggested? Earthquakes, hurricanes etc. etc. This is not specific to 2012 but gives credibility to the "prophecy" if true, so it should be researched as well, along with Natural Die Offs of large animal populations

I know you said facts, but I cbf finding any. But I know that in Australia in the past year or so we've had gigantic fires, plagues of locusts, floods and cyclones.
I was pretty amused by it in a way because of the whole bible thing.

Also maybe the awakening thing will be that nobody really gives a fuck (doesn't believe) about 2012 and it just passes by.
Rationalism ftw.

Originally Posted by tommo

I know you said facts, but I cbf finding any. But I know that in Australia in the past year or so we've had gigantic fires, plagues of locusts, floods and cyclones.
I was pretty amused by it in a way because of the whole bible thing.

Yeah, the poor aussies have had it rough for the past while.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

- Earth having a pole shift, or aligning with planets, or the center of our galaxy, or moving from one plane and shifting its spin, wobble, etc. etc., etc. ...someone research that please and give us some data!

There is an alignment, but it happens every year at that time.

I know that one of the earlier people that talked about 2012 was Terence McKenna in his Novelty Theories and Timewave Zero.

As to the thread, I'll try to give some input.



Quite some time ago I watched a 3 hour lecture on 2012 and the calendar (I'm looking for it*) and it basically went into detail on how the different levels of evolution of consciousness progress and get shorter each time the next circle starts. What I found interesting is that, viewed from a larger picture (big bang - 2012) some cycles do seem to outline some significant changes and if the names were correct, some of these appeared quite uncanny. I personally would put more emphasize on the big picture than picking out single events that happen now. At least start from a broader viewpoint, to understand the "changing curve".

*It was by Nassim Haramein.

I never actually checked the accuracy of either the dates nor the calendar itself.

In the lecture it was actually a lot more explained than in the picture I have posted.

We could look at the two dates that are open in the provided calendar:
Jan 5, 1999
Feb 11, 2011
Anything specific happen on exactly these days?

According to Wikipedia:
As to 1999: Apple Computer releases the Power Macintosh G3 (Blue & White)
But as for the date of Feb 11, 2011: Egyptian Revolution culminates in the resignation of Hosni Mubarak and the transfer of power to the Supreme Military Council after 18 days of protests.

Here is another:




Anyway, I guess that existence (meaning everything) is so complex and versatile that it could be fitted into any "relative" system trying to put a static order on things to make it appear true and sensible. I personally prefer the notion of a bit more chaos, but sometimes I wonder if everything happens because it is supposed to, whether we want to or not.

Especially looking at events over the last 200 years makes it increasingly difficult to put them into "the correct order" and is almost necessarily vague. What's more, our perception of events is guided by media and may be biased as well.

That said, I believe that the most significant invention and tool to change everything forever is the internet. That's the closest we have come to observing a collective consciousness.

God doesn't exist

EDIT:

Dammit! O beat me too it!

What about the theory about the large hadron collider forming a micro black hole, that sucks in more and more until it devours the entire earth, in 2012?

I think people just want to see the world be destroyed, but none of them have the guts to make a dooms day machine them self, so they cling to the fantasy that the world will destroy itself. Obvious it wont though. Construction takes to long, so if you haven't started your doomsday machine yet, it might be to late to have it up and running by 2012. Though I suppose if you are trying to be dramatic and finish it at the last minute, just before new years, when it will turn 2013, it might be okay to wait.

Spart...you sort of missed my point. Which is that I'd like to discover the source of many of these beliefs so that we can effectively disprove them or consider it as a possibility. I've also heard about the supposed planet, thanks for mentioning that one. But my point is that I've heard some intelligent sounding arguments for this supposed planet, therefore I think it worthwhile to find the real source of this information so that people STOP continuing to spread misinformation. Basically your post doesn't help at all, because it just states your opinion that all such things are BS, yet doesn't get to the core of any real information. This is why I said that any information presented should be provided with good sources to support your facts or opinion. I'm not asking these things because I think any of this stuff will turn out to be true, I just want people to have accurate information so they stop sounding like idiots parroting what they've heard their friends say or read on someone's internet blog. I would never come into a thread like this and say, "well the I-ching predicts that the world will end in 2012" even though I saw something regarding the I-ching and 2012 on Nat Geo. But a lot of people DO make those kind of mistakes, and continue spreading misinformation. I just want to encourage people to do their own research and figure out whether any of this stuff has any shred of credibility. You were quick to dismiss the "pole shift" but you neglected to provide any support for where this idea originated, or what part of it might be accurate or inaccurate.

Alric...can you provide us with research that says how the Hadron might produce black holes? Haven't most scientists dismissed this notion? etc. etc. etc. that's what I want to see. Not more speculation. Facts. Anybody got them?

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Facts. Anybody got them?

My guess: No. Only a very telling absence of them.

Bam:
The Large Hadron Collider Will Not Destroy the World Tomorrow, or Ever | GeekDad | Wired.com

Safety of Particle Collisions at the Large Hadron Collider

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Bam:
The Large Hadron Collider Will Not Destroy the World Tomorrow, or Ever | GeekDad | Wired.com

Safety of Particle Collisions at the Large Hadron Collider

If that's responding to what I said then you misunderstood what I said (my fault definitely. I wasn't clear).

I should have said that you will not find a single fact supporting a single theory that suggests that 21/12/2012 will be any special day.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

But understanding this does not get in the way of entertaining the idea (unless you really want it to).

What exactly do you mean by "entertaining" an idea if not evaluating it to see if it's true or not?

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

If that's responding to what I said then you misunderstood what I said (my fault definitely. I wasn't clear).

Nah, it was more in response to Alric. I actually hadn't even thought about the Hadron, but the whole "it's gonna destroy the world" hysteria could be closely related to the 2012 thing. So I just posted something explaining that its safety has been evaluated, and is likely not a problem.

Originally Posted by PS

I should have said that you will not find a single fact supporting a single theory that suggests that 21/12/2012 will be any special day.

Ah, ok. And that's fine. But the declaration that one won't find any facts means much, much less to me than the actual inability of people to find said facts. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Originally Posted by PS

What exactly do you mean by "entertaining" an idea if not evaluating it to see if it's true or not?

What I mean is to pretend the theories are substantial, in order to either verify or falsify them. Coming into the experiment with the simple intention to prove it wrong by doing things like trying to question the credibility of those who started them is not the point of the thread. The point is to take those theories, substantial or not and actually compare them to what is going on in the world right now. It is an exercise in 'suspension of disbelief.' That's all. It's like going into a superhero movie and not trying to explain why 'that's stupid! Telekinesis doesn't exist!' (It's important to note that some 'logical' people have an innate inability to do this.) Instead, it's about saying: "Ok, so let's assume these theories are genuine. Are there any signs of it (however speculative) happening right now, in the real world?"

Even in matters of science, bias obstructs discovery. The point of this thread is to explore the theories without bias - without trying to smear the credibility of the original claims - but through applying those claims to see how well they do or do not fit with what is actually happening now.

Scientist did disprove most of the worries people had. However there was a lot of worry and stuff. Like with it releasing strangelets that will destroy the entire world. There are theories for that but they are mostly disbelieved. Some people look at the small very unlikely situations and ask, "What if?" And they work them self up over it.

A lot of the fears for most of the 2012 theories come from speculation, not fact. So when you look back at where they originally came from, they appear very unlikely.

Originally Posted by Alric

A lot of the fears for most of the 2012 theories come from speculation, not fact. So when you look back at where they originally came from, they appear very unlikely.

And I understand this. But understanding this does not get in the way of entertaining the idea (unless you really want it to). Like I said, I am simply entertaining the idea. As I said in the OP, I think there is probably a paradigm shift coming. Do I think this is directly related to 2012, no. But it has sparked my interest in the theory. So if people can find it in themselves to humor me, that's awesome. If they can't, there is really no reason for them to be posting here, because they would be preaching to the choir.

Double post, I know, but I just wanted to acknowledge that I talked to Xei in chat, and he further explained his position on the Internet. Before, I interpreted it as simply talking about the "flow of information," which I didn't find very relevant, at the time. But, when he expanded on how that was a "shift in global consciousness," I understood it more. That part of our discussion was a bit of a mis-understanding on my part, and a bit of ambiguity on his. I still do not believe it was quite as analogous to the different facets of the 2012 theories as what is going on now, but - just as Spart's suggestions, it is something to take into consideration. I just want to make that known.

O I think you're approaching this the wrong way. Most of the beliefs concerning 2012 are based on mythology (ancient or modern) rather than science (bad or good). There are no papers on these beliefs or agreed upon facts.

For this reason the origins and sources of these beliefs are very important, they're pretty much all we have to judge them. I'm not exactly sure what direction you want this thread to go, but if I understand Nina's position better we should just examine every 2012 belief in detail.

I already mentioned the pole shift and Nibiru beliefs so I'll start with those...

Most people who talk about pole shifts are confusing the term with geomagnetic reversal. A pole shift is a change of the geographical poles that the Earth rotates around. Changing this would indeed be very bad, but it's just not going to happen short of the Earth being struck by something the size of the Moon or a Jupiter-sized planet messing up our orbit. A geomagnetic reversal is a reversal of the Earth's north and south magnetic poles. This has happened many times in the past and hasn't been linked to any cataclysmic event. Geomagnetic reversals also aren't instantaneous, and certainly can't be pinned down (or predicted) to a specific date. The last event happened over the course of millennia.

Now for the phantom planet Nibiru... it's kinda hard to quote sources disproving something that doesn't exist... It's safe to say that astronomer have found no reason to believe in its existence, either directly or through gravity and orbit anomalies. Anybody in North America, go outside right now (7:30 EST) and look west. The bright object just above the horizon is Jupiter, Jupiter is pretty far and that's how bright it is. With binoculars you can see its moons which are roughly the size of our Moon, anybody can do this from their porch. The idea that a planet-sized object has yet to be discovered in the vicinity of Earth is ridiculous with the number of eyes looking up. Also please, please consider the source. A woman claimed that aliens put an implant in her brain and are communicating with her. She first said that there would be a collision in 2003, and when that didn't happen she changed the date to 2012.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

O I think you're approaching this the wrong way. Most of the beliefs concerning 2012 are based on mythology (ancient or modern) rather than science (bad or good). There are no papers on these beliefs or agreed upon facts.

For this reason the origins and sources of these beliefs are very important, they're pretty much all we have to judge them. I'm not exactly sure what direction you want this thread to go, but if I understand Nina's position better we should just examine every 2012 belief in detail.

I'm not judging the origins of the beliefs. To find and post them is fine, but if they are wide-spread beliefs about what will happen, then where the beliefs started is not really all that important. What would be important is how closely the beliefs resemble things that are happening currently. What I'm not trying to do is hear "well there are no facts to support this belief, so apparently it's not true." That's all. If you are going to post information on the foundation of a belief in a way that helps us understand it enough to conclude whether or not something similar to the belief is happening now (or in the near future, if we come back to it later), then fire away. What I don't want to see is "well, such-and-such theory is just a whack job speculation, with no science behind it, so it's obviously not happening right now."

Originally Posted by Spart

I already mentioned the pole shift and Nibiru beliefs so I'll start with those...

Most people who talk about pole shifts are confusing the term with geomagnetic reversal. A pole shift is a change of the geographical poles that the Earth rotates around. Changing this would indeed be very bad, but it's just not going to happen short of the Earth being struck by something the size of the Moon or a Jupiter-sized planet messing up our orbit. A geomagnetic reversal is a reversal of the Earth's north and south magnetic poles. This has happened many times in the past and hasn't been linked to any cataclysmic event. Geomagnetic reversals also aren't instantaneous, and certainly can't be pinned down (or predicted) to a specific date. The last event happened over the course of millennia.

Sloshing Inside Earth Changes Protective Magnetic Field | Space.com
Sometimes ya gotta dig a little deeper, Spart.

Now, I do understand that the geomagnetic reversal is not a cataclysmic event, in and of itself, but what kind of damage could a disabling of critical satellites do? Surely it could be enough for someone to interpret the damage as 'cataclysmic,' no? As far as how soon or far into the future it's going to happen - as the article said - the jury is still out. But sudden shifts - enough to damage satellites, at the least - can apparently happen over the course of a few months. So I think we can keep paying attention to it.

Originally Posted by Spart

Now for the phantom planet Nibiru... it's kinda hard to quote sources disproving something that doesn't exist... It's safe to say that astronomer have found no reason to believe in its existence, either directly or through gravity and orbit anomalies. Anybody in North America, go outside right now (7:30 EST) and look west. The bright object just above the horizon is Jupiter, Jupiter is pretty far and that's how bright it is. With binoculars you can see its moons which are roughly the size of our Moon, anybody can do this from their porch. The idea that a planet-sized object has yet to be discovered in the vicinity of Earth is ridiculous with the number of eyes looking up. Also please, please consider the source. A woman claimed that aliens put an implant in her brain and are communicating with her. She first said that there would be a collision in 2003, and when that didn't happen she changed the date to 2012.

The most important part of the Nibiru thing is that the time-frame for the (obvious) hoax has already come and gone. The original theory didn't even have anything to do with 2012. It wasn't until after the deadline had come and gone that other people ran with the theory and began to attribute it to 2012. For that reason, alone, it's not worth talking about, because the deadline was supposed to have been for 2003.

You see how I did that without relying on the assumption that the woman was a crackpot?

Now. Since we got the obvious out of the way, lets play with the theory a little more, just for shits and giggles.

This was brought to my attention yesterday, as a matter of coincidence, while watching the news:
Giant Stealth Planet May Explain Rain of Comets from Solar System's Edge | Space.com

Not that I have any sort of belief that this is the phantom planet Nibiru, or that this planet is going to rocket further into our solar system and cause the apocalypse (or that it actually exists at all), but I find it interesting that the nickname for Nibiru - which is Planet X - came:

Originally Posted by Wiki

from the hypothetical planet once searched for by astronomers to account for discrepancies in the orbits of Uranus and Neptune.[17] In 1894, Bostonian astronomer Percival Lowell became convinced that the planets Uranus and Neptune had slight discrepancies in their orbits. He concluded that they must be being tugged by the gravity of another, more distant planet, which he called "Planet X".[20] However, nearly a century of searching failed to turn up any evidence for such an object (Pluto was initially believed to be Planet X, but was later determined to be too small).[21] In 1992, astronomer Myles Standish showed that the supposed discrepancies in the planets' orbits were illusory; the product of an overestimation of the mass of Neptune.[22] Today astronomers accept that Planet X does not exist.[23]

Nibiru collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And yes, you will find that there are doubts in the scientific community, as to whether or not Tyche exists, which is fine. It's all speculation, at this point. But it's an interesting coincidence, if nothing else.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I'm not judging the origins of the beliefs. To find and post them is fine, but if they are wide-spread beliefs about what will happen, then where the beliefs started is not really all that important. What would be important is how closely the beliefs resemble things that are happening currently. What I'm not trying to do is hear "well there are no facts to support this belief, so apparently it's not true." That's all. If you are going to post information on the foundation of a belief in a way that helps us understand it enough to conclude whether or not something similar to the belief is happening now (or in the near future, if we come back to it later), then fire away. What I don't want to see is "well, such-and-such theory is just a whack job speculation, with no science behind it, so it's obviously not happening right now."

Many many people believe because they were simply told and didn't look into it any further, I think that the number of believers is much less relevant than how the originator got their idea.

Sloshing Inside Earth Changes Protective Magnetic Field | Space.com
Sometimes ya gotta dig a little deeper, Spart.

Now, I do understand that the geomagnetic reversal is not a cataclysmic event, in and of itself, but what kind of damage could a disabling of critical satellites do? Surely it could be enough for someone to interpret the damage as 'cataclysmic,' no? As far as how soon or far into the future it's going to happen - as the article said - the jury is still out. But sudden shifts - enough to damage satellites, at the least - can apparently happen over the course of a few months. So I think we can keep paying attention to it.

I did know about this but didn't think it was very important since:

a) We've known about these variations for quite a while.
b) The events themselves aren't particularly significant, a few satellites being knocked out (which could happen any time, even from other events like solar flares or CMEs) seems unworthy of a millennia old Mayan prophecy.
c) They still can't be attributed to a single date (21/12/2012).

I think this is a case of looking too hard for corroborating evidence with a preconceived notion in head.

The most important part of the Nibiru thing is that the time-frame for the (obvious) hoax has already come and gone. The original theory didn't even have anything to do with 2012. It wasn't until after the deadline had come and gone that other people ran with the theory and began to attribute it to 2012. For that reason, alone, it's not worth talking about, because the deadline was supposed to have been for 2003.

You see how I did that without relying on the assumption that the woman was a crackpot?

Would you have believed her before 2003?

Now. Since we got the obvious out of the way, lets play with the theory a little more, just for shits and giggles.

This was brought to my attention yesterday, as a matter of coincidence, while watching the news:
Giant Stealth Planet May Explain Rain of Comets from Solar System's Edge | Space.com

Not that I have any sort of belief that this is the phantom planet Nibiru, or that this planet is going to rocket further into our solar system and cause the apocalypse (or that it actually exists at all), but I find it interesting that the nickname for Nibiru - which is Planet X - came:


And yes, you will find that there are doubts in the scientific community, as to whether or not Tyche exists, which is fine. It's all speculation, at this point. But it's an interesting coincidence, if nothing else.

First, the idea of another planet past the orbit of Neptune doesn't only carry doubts, it is not currently accepted, though not out of the question. The name Planet X has existed ever since astronomers started searching for a planet beyond Neptune, the people who made up Nibiru just adopted the name. In any case, the belief is that this planet will cross into the inner solar system and mess up Earth, so anything short of that isn't really related. An interesting quote regarding the possibility of such an event:

In a 2009 interview with the Discovery Channel, Mike Brown noted that, while it is not impossible that the Sun has a distant planetary companion, such an object would have to be lying very far from the observed regions of the Solar System to have no gravitational effect on the other planets. A Mars-sized object could lie undetected at 300 AU (10 times the distance of Neptune); a Jupiter-sized object at 30,000 AU (1000 times the distance of Neptune). To travel 1000 AU (30 times the distance of Neptune) in 2 years, an object would need to be moving at 2400 km/s, or faster than the galactic escape velocity. At that speed, any object would be shot out of the Solar System, and then out of the Milky Way galaxy into intergalactic space.[33]

Well if you want a plausible idea, I'll tell you something could happen in 2012 because of this idea that there will be a paradigm shift. I'm talking about a self-fulfilling prophecy. Considering that this whole idea of something happening in 2012 is pretty popular, it might be that just the very overall feeling of inspiration and expectation of change catalyzes it if enough people feel that way.

Still, I can't help but mention that "a paradigm shift" is an incredibly vague notion about as prophetic as "we will have interesting weather tomorrow." How would you go about approaching such a suggestion? What exactly constitutes a paradigm shift? It seems like there are any number of potential social changes that could be listed under that idea. With social change constant and inevitable, it would be insane to predict that there would not be a paradigm shift of some kind somewhere. At least we have a specific date to work with, I suppose, but then how could a significant paradigm shift occur on a single day? It doesn't seem like there can be much that we can conclude without a more specific prediction.

And since the source of all of this, the Mayans, never even made predictions, we won't get a more specific one. I'm not even sure where the "paradigm shift" notion comes from, but it's not the Mayans.

On a related note, I'm wondering if popularity and hype regarding 2012 will increase or decrease as we near the date. I think I have noticed a decrease in the last year or two, possibly since mass media started entertaining the phenomenon (they're always late ).

Originally Posted by Spart

Many many people believe because they were simply told and didn't look into it any further, I think that the number of believers is much less relevant than how the originator got their idea.

*sigh*
Fine. Seeing as how it's apparently impossible to get some of you to play along (and it's really nothing to squabble over), if you want to falsify the theories by talking about where they came from, rather than just whether or not similar things are happening right now - which is the constantly-repeated aim of this thread - you go right ahead.

Originally Posted by Spart

a) We've known about these variations for quite a while.
b) The events themselves aren't particularly significant, a few satellites being knocked out (which could happen any time, even from other events like solar flares or CMEs) seems unworthy of a millennia old Mayan prophecy.
c) They still can't be attributed to a single date (21/12/2012).

a) Since we both posted articles stating they have happened over and over, I'm not sure what your point is on this one.
b) None of the events are particularly catastrophic themselves, but what I'm looking at is how well any/all of these interpretations might fit together with what is going on currently. Whether or not we have these flares every century or every 10 million years is irrelevant. What matters is whether or not one of these events might happen soon, and whether or not these events cause mass chaos - most specifically, in conjuction with other facets of the theories. And that remains to be seen.
c) Sure they can. IF, by some mind-blowing coincidence, critical satellites are blown out by such an event (most significantly; along with other events of the sort), on or around 12/21/2012, then I would say it's pretty significant. And again, it remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by Spart

I think this is a case of looking too hard for corroborating evidence with a preconceived notion in head.

It is. And that's the point of this thread. This is what happens when people spend too long instinctively trying to debunk things... Listen closely: The point of the thread IS to invoke the theories. It IS to examine all of the theories and try to make the variables fit, because it is the only way to actually and empirically put the theories to the test, in the coming 2 years. There isn't a single one of us who knows exactly what's going to come out of any of these things, in the near future. So if, by some miracle, like 10 interpretations of the 2012 hysteria happen to come true, on or around that 'prophetic' day, it would be filed away as maybe even nothing more than "interesting". But "interesting" will be good enough for me, by the end of this. It is like the difference between the likelyhood that ESP doesn't exist, and the interesting results from the experiments of Dean Radin and his colleagues. It is like the likelyhood that teleportation doesn't exist, and the interesting implications of an electron's non-local properties (which even Einstein called "spooky action at a distance"). The point of the thread is to stop trying to pre-emptively debunk 2012 claims before they happen, but to bring them to light and then observe whether or not analogous events actually take place, in the coming years. It's fringe, it's unorthodox, it's "crazy," but I find it fun and fascinating.

(And, frankly, some of you are taking the fun out of it.)

Originally Posted by Spart

Would you have believed her before 2003?

I didn't "believe" her, even before I knew that the deadline for the theory was back in 2003. Why are you asking me this?

Originally Posted by Spart

First, the idea of another planet past the orbit of Neptune doesn't only carry doubts, it is not currently accepted, though not out of the question. The name Planet X has existed ever since astronomers started searching for a planet beyond Neptune, the people who made up Nibiru just adopted the name. In any case, the belief is that this planet will cross into the inner solar system and mess up Earth, so anything short of that isn't really related. An interesting quote regarding the possibility of such an event:

I stated that it carried doubts. I posted a link to an article stating that it's not a currently accepted theory in the scientific community. I also hinted at the physical impossibility of such a planet rocketing further into the solar system, toward Earth. I understand very clearly that the name was just taken from the afore-mentioned object. I also said that, if nothing else, the elements that have come together are likely nothing more than interesting coincidence; the name Planet X; the alleged vicinity (within the solar system, but on the unobservable outskirts); the time frame of the awareness of its possible existence (closing in on 2012, with room/time for other possible discoveries related to the most remote aspects of the whole Nibiru thing). However, the direction I'm heading in is that this is all fair game as something to 'shut up and watch,' until the 'Doomsday Date' happens.

Once again, the point of this thread is not to try to debunk the theories based on things we already know. The point of the thread is to list the theories, and see how well they do or don't fit with things (even remotely) that are going on now, or in the next 2 years. I'm not trying to take a "scientific" look at whether or not these things are plausible, based on what we all ready know. I am simply trying to look at things that are going on, or will be going on in the near future, and list their associations with the 2012 theories - however flimsy those associations might be. Granted, I only want to discuss things that are (somewhat) closely-related, but I really don't care if each individual thing can be logically deduced to not be exactly on point. As far as this thread goes, it really doesn't matter.

I'm just trying to get an amalgamation of things that could be misconstrued as things that validate the 2012 theory, when taken together. It's likely not going to be any one particular thing. It will be a grouping together of things that mark the end of 2012 as a significant time period, that may or may not fit the 2012 theories. That's all. That's it. Finis.

Can we even do this? At first, I didn't think it was going to be such a Mission: Impossible, but now, I'm not so sure...

@Mark:
The point is not to explain "how vague a paradigm shift is." The point is simply to observe what happens, and see how well the current events - on or around 2012 - can be attributed to the 'paradigm shift,' and other facets of the 2012 theory. It doesn't mean that I'm going to be like "OH SHIT! PARADIGM SHIFT!" It's just that I would like to see how well/poorly the events that actually happen can or cannot be attributed to the theories. It is ultimately an aimless goal, but it's something that I find interesting. So it's more a "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" sort of thing.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

@Mark:
The point is not to explain "how vague a paradigm shift is." The point is simply to observe what happens, and see how well the current events - on or around 2012 - can be attributed to the 'paradigm shift,' and other facets of the 2012 theory. It doesn't mean that I'm going to be like "OH SHIT! PARADIGM SHIFT!" It's just that I would like to see how well/poorly the events that actually happen can or cannot be attributed to the theories. It is ultimately an aimless goal, but it's something that I find interesting. So it's more a "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" sort of thing.

Yeah, I understand that. I'm just saying that without answers to the questions I asked and a more specific prediction I wouldn't even know which wall to start throwing at.

Do you feel it? Its coming....

No. Not really. Unless it feels like an upset stomach.

Imo, things are happening. Our world is still in its technological adolescence and we are still ruled by rich ass holes. but our abilities to spread information alone enhances our will to potentially change things. People across the globe can collectively come together and say no this is not okay. And that in itself is a big deal. 2012 might not be anything too huge however it may be the starting seed of a new era. I think what happened in egypt was amazing and that it is a big step forward. I hope that in 2012 on a very basic level the world comes to a moralistically sound crescendo of beliefs. I hope for once we can all agree on one thing. who knows what it could be. but as long as it helps systematically change who our ruling powers are and makes this world a better, i'm all for it. all in good time sirs.

bring it beeches