Thread: Anti-Racism in School

Originally Posted by Irken

If you've ever gone to school then you've obviously been taught about tolerance and accepting other people.

Nah, outside of the US it just kind of comes naturally to people, at least where I'm from.

But what about the racists themselves. If anything school fortifies an intolerance of these people. Sure they may be racist and for sure that's a bad thing but hey I'm not perfect so how am I better than a racist or you for that matter. So what do you think?

In my opinion, people who are irrationally intolerant of others are bad. Being intolerant of bad people isn't wrong or irrational.

Exactly @ Marvo. Those who disregard or belittle others do not deserve regard for themselves.

Originally Posted by Marvo

In my opinion, people who are irrationally intolerant of others are bad. However, being intolerant of bad people isn't wrong or irrational.

You're right you shouldn't tolerate something bad. Instead you should try and help that person if they'll let you. I mean if you know how to help that person. Sometimes when you try to help you can just make a situation worse.

Originally Posted by Irken

If you've ever gone to school then you've obviously been taught about tolerance and accepting other people. But what about the racists themselves. If anything school fortifies an intolerance of these people. Sure they may be racist and for sure that's a bad thing but hey I'm not perfect so how am I better than a racist or you for that matter. So what do you think?

To me, there are countless ways that the inability to think can be expressed. If you choose just one front to face, you become an ant pissing on a forest fire. If you desire to change the world, you have to change the way men think from the ground up--and one must start with problem 1, the self. In the end, there is no one in all of creation who is responsible for our ability to reason but ourselves.

I don't mind looking down upon racism, but I have two problems with the current attitude:

(1) Predjudice is looked at as a terrible evil. I mean, it can be if it is founded on hate, and it is a sign of narrow-minded foolishness. But sometimes it is founded on honest opinion (though usually misguided opinion). If some guy thinks a person is worth more or less based on his skin color it's silly but why should that be a terrible tradgedy? There are worse things people could be into and I think those things should be addressed as well.

(2) Racism is very loosely defined. Some people are called "racists" because they don't approve of gay marriage, and some schools will try to tell kids that having a Confederate flag makes you a racist. My point is that the race card is being abused by teachers who want to indoctrinate students with their own opinions and agendas.

Why not simply teach against hate and judging unfairly? That should cover all the bases.

But the whole tolerance thing is getting out of hand. We must tolerate everything from burning the American flag to pornography on public libray computers. Meanwhile, we can't tolerate someone telling a racist joke in public. Some politician got into trouble recently for calling Republicans "f--ing retards". He was in trouble for saying "retards", but no one mentioned that he also called them "f--ing". What happened to priorities? A Muslim says that Christians should be exterminated, and it's freedom of speech. An NPR commentator says that he can understand being uneasy seeing a bunch of fundamentalist Muslims get onto an airplane with him, and he loses his job. The message seems to be "do what you want to as long as you don't offend a minority. Offend everyone else all you want."

And that's my rant for today.

The inability to think starts with the inability to establish standards.

The drive for toleration is actually counter productive to rational response--effecting an ignorance of standards.

"Being intolerant of 'bad' people isn't wrong or irrational" - Unfortunately, racists can use this line too - at what point does irrational intolerance become rational intolerance? I think we are too quick to judge what is bad and what is not, then we crystallise this judgement, and fail to listen to that which disputes it.

Originally Posted by MrTransitory

"Being intolerant of 'bad' people isn't wrong or irrational" - Unfortunately, racists can use this line too - at what point does irrational intolerance become rational intolerance? I think we are too quick to judge what is bad and what is not, then we crystallise this judgement, and fail to listen to that which disputes it.

Hating another person based on genetic traits is irrational and childish. That is a fact.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Hating another person based on genetic traits is irrational and childish. That is a fact.

Agreed. And it's laughable to believe that someone could hate someone based on those facts alone - There must be 'assumed to be rational' reasons that link to these traits. Simply believing: 'this person is grey and born on Mars, therefore I hate them' must have an underlying cause or reason. And this reason (for the person with the hatred) is thought to be rational in their perspective.

I would hate to think that humans believe/disbelieve/like/dislike etc someone with conviction and yet for absolutely no reason. It's primitive... (as if it's genetically encoded to hate another's genetics). No, no, no.

Guess I could be wrong, sadly.

I wasn't racist until I went to college.* Then every second of every day they bashed my head over with "be tolerant" and "accept that people are different." Thanks, school, because before I didn't think people were different. Now I've been indoctrinated with a constant thick line drawn between people groups, a non-stop reminder that we are different.

Trying to create tolerance is a good intention, but in my experience it only engenders A) a resentment that the university constantly assumes we aren't tolerant and need to be taught it and B) dividing minority groups from the majority group. It's dangerously close towards racism and sexism against white males from where I'm from with all the relentless push towards females and every non-Caucasian ethnicity on the planet. But to say something is racist against a Caucasian is often construed as a racist statement since whites are the ultimate generators of hatred (/sarcasm). Just look at the term "reverse racism." So, when someone is racist against a white it isn't normal racism, but somehow reversed? Forgive my cynicism but ENOUGH already. I've heard so many "racists are ignorant" (often with "ignorant" misspelled, ironically) spiels all over the Internet and "Be tolerant" speeches to drown myself in the nearest toilet. Most of the time the so-called racism being criticized was laughably minor, making me recall a time when we weren't all so damn thin-skinned and could take a slightly pointed joke or two floating around.

* I'm still not racist, actually, but I'm certainly not as innocent-thinking as I was pre-university.

It all depends on the order of which people stand. Intolerance for intolerance is hypocritical, yeah, but hypocrisy is not the point. If someone says, "Fuck you nigger!", that person initiated the intolerance. I know it sounds juvenile to word it this way, but my opinion is that the importance of the matter is where you stand in line.

Sometimes, a person may initiate intolerance in a confusing manner. For example, if you used the word "nigger" in a sentence, and someone who overheard you was offended, and then acted out their intolerance of your vocabulary, then the order of standing would be blurry. My opinion is that it all comes down to intent. If someone says "What's up, nigger?" in a way that is not intended to be malicious, then it is not showing intolerance, even though it may be perceived that way.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Hating another person based on genetic traits is irrational and childish. That is a fact.

But what if being racist is a genetic predisposition?

Originally Posted by GestaltAlteration

I wasn't racist until I went to college.* Then every second of every day they bashed my head over with "be tolerant" and "accept that people are different." Thanks, school, because before I didn't think people were different. Now I've been indoctrinated with a constant thick line drawn between people groups, a non-stop reminder that we are different.

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment, I'm not sure that it's really feasible to go through life being "color blind." There are some differences between races, sexes, etc., and whether those differences happen to be small or large, unimportant or important, to simply ignore these differences outright is to delude oneself. The key to combating racist attitudes, IMO, is not to convince ourselves that there is no such thing as group differences, but rather to learn to accept these differences in a nonjudgmental way -- even value them. It sounds like that's essentially what the school was doing. Whether or not their method is really effective in reducing racist attitudes is an open, empirical question, but I just want to point out that it's not obviously flawed.

Consider this analogy. You're a parent and you want your child to avoid getting high. As you know and as your child does not know, it is possible to get high from the nitrous oxide in cans of whipped cream ("whip-its"). Do you warn your child about how unsafe this is, or do you not say anything? On the one hand, if you warn them, you will thereby inform them that this is an easy way to get high. However, they will also know how dumb it is before they ever try it. On the other hand, if you don't warn them, they won't even learn that it's a possible way to get high for some time. However, when they do learn (and they will), it will probably be from their peers who are encouraging them to try it. They won't hear anything at all about how risky and bad for their health it is, they will only hear about how fun and easy it is. I submit that it's better to warn the child in advance than to foster their ignorance.

To bring the analogy back to racism: There are group differences, and college students will learn them. So is it better to let the students go on as long as possible believing that there are no such thing as group differences--until they find out for themselves, of course, and who knows what attitudes that will foster--or is it better to preemptively foster an accepting and nonjudgmental attitude toward those differences? I submit that it's probably better to do the latter than the former.

In the words of a friend of mine, "The only thing that can't be tolerated is intolerance".

Originally Posted by DuB

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment, I'm not sure that it's really feasible to go through life being "color blind." There are some differences between races, sexes, etc., and whether those differences happen to be small or large, unimportant or important, to simply ignore these differences outright is to delude oneself. The key to combating racist attitudes, IMO, is not to convince ourselves that there is no such thing as group differences, but rather to learn to accept these differences in a nonjudgmental way -- even value them. It sounds like that's essentially what the school was doing. Whether or not their method is really effective in reducing racist attitudes is an open, empirical question, but I just want to point out that it's not obviously flawed.

The point here is not that I was totally unaware of group differences outright, it's impossible not pick up on that over twenty years on this planet, but rather that I treated other ethnic groups with equal respect and kindness. This was how I was raised and how I thought of other people: as morally equal agents over and beyond certain traits common to their ethnicity. To assume people have not perceived the basic group differences by college is where the resentment comes in; why am I being pounded in the head every day with such elementary details? Is it really changing the judgment seriously of people who have already entered adulthood? Shouldn't parents and growing up have covered this in contemporary times? And hey, I perfectly understand some tolerance teaching at universities, but I'm talking about a constant barrage year after year after year. It's doing a wonderful job of preemptively fostering a judgmental attitude in me undoing everything my parents have taught me. Hopefully this will change after getting out of this pseudo intellectual cesspool and into real life. I strongly suspect it will revert back and look forward to it.

I kind of find it odd what you're describing. Year after year, no matter what you're studying? Is that normal? Do you feel these classes being neccessary when you look and talk to the the students around you? Going to university does presume some kind of intellect and education, no? I would probably feel the frustration as well.. I guess here it is kind of "assumed".

If anything my high school kind of promoted racism... Didn't notice anything in college.

Originally Posted by cedward1

(1) Predjudice is looked at as a terrible evil. I mean, it can be if it is founded on hate, and it is a sign of narrow-minded foolishness. But sometimes it is founded on honest opinion (though usually misguided opinion). If some guy thinks a person is worth more or less based on his skin color it's silly but why should that be a terrible tradgedy? There are worse things people could be into and I think those things should be addressed as well.

Do you mind telling us what is worse than thinking other human beings are worth less than you because they're different? Because I honestly can't think of anything that comes to mind. That is the root of almost all hatred and violence in humanity.

(2) Racism is very loosely defined. Some people are called "racists" because they don't approve of gay marriage

I've never heard of anybody critically stupid enough to think that homosexuality is a "race", so I don't know where you're finding these "some people". It's called homophobia.

But the whole tolerance thing is getting out of hand. We must tolerate everything from burning the American flag to pornography on public libray computers.

WTF? Who on Earth do you think tolerates this? Where did you ever witness people tolerating pornography on public library computers or flag burning?

Originally Posted by dajo

I kind of find it odd what you're describing. Year after year, no matter what you're studying? Is that normal? Do you feel these classes being necessary when you look and talk to the the students around you? Going to university does presume some kind of intellect and education, no? I would probably feel the frustration as well.. I guess here it is kind of "assumed".

My studies lean heavily towards the humanities, which lends itself towards overt focuses on minority groups & women when it comes to gleaning various texts, as if we're "making up for lost time" for all those years where only white men were included in the canon. I recognize the injustice of the past, indeed the world and in particular America was a terribly racist/sexist place not very long ago, but it feels like the current generation is overreacting to mistakes made by people no longer alive. Yeah, so I'm not saying the issues from those times are totally resolved, but I think the overemphasis is doing little to help. Those who go to university and study the harder sciences aren't going to encounter this in the same way, but they'll still likely spot more than a few "diversity" meetings and "tolerance" speeches advertised on the closest bulletin boards.

Boiled down, my anger is directed at the institution. Sometimes it just feels like I'm pissed at minorities, but this is probably just the ripple effect from what is essentially propaganda. If others need some kind of special teaching to treat others equal that are not within their immediate race, GREAT. I don't understand it, but eh. As for me, I've fucking learned it from living life. You know, REAL life, not the fantasy world these liberal colleges try to construct in a little stuffy classroom with motivational posters and people who repeat what they read on the Internet like they're plugged into a collective consciousness (You know, just read youtube comments on a perceived racist video and everyone seems to say the exact same thing, even as young as 12.).

This is all empirical... So I don't expect to pass this as an all-encompassing assertion, but it adequately sums up my view on the matter as of now.

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Do you mind telling us what is worse than thinking other human beings are worth less than you because they're different? Because I honestly can't think of anything that comes to mind. That is the root of almost all hatred and violence in humanity.

So now being something makes you a bad person? So If I don't like Latin Americans I'm the worst of humanity. (Not like I'm racist towards Latin Americans or anything) My point is, being racist isn't the worst thing on Earth, like you make it out to be as well as the public education system. I for one think murdering someone is worse than being racist. If you happen to murder someone for being a certain race that makes it even worse. But not all racists are murderers and not all murderers are racists.

There are tons of things you can do and become that are worse than being a racist. In fact, you should keep an open-mind and understand the racist rather than hate him for hating a group of people. In many instances these people have been brought up on racist values. It isn't like they came to the informed decision to be racists one day after scrutinizing all the details and facts. My grandfather was from Mississippi and lived and fought in WWII and he was racist, however towards the end of his life I think he let go of his racism. And it should be noted that being racist doesn't mean you hate another race it just means you have a false perception of a different race. It being higher or lower. So I think my grandpa who fought for his country and raised a family is not a bad person but apparently him being racist made him the worst of humanity.

I was pretty much unaffected with racism until Obama won the election. Living in the south, I kinda expected myself to have heard it all, then the day after, I heard some of the sickest comments ever. I didn't vote for the guy (or any guy for that matter, but that's another topic), but I felt absolutely awful at the venom people were spitting.

There's nothing that requires you to tolerate someone who hates people to the point of death. I've encountered that racism before where, if given the chance, they would kill a minority without concern. It's a sick level of human depravity.

Originally Posted by TheKing

I was pretty much unaffected with racism until Obama won the election. Living in the south, I kinda expected myself to have heard it all, then the day after, I heard some of the sickest comments ever. I didn't vote for the guy (or any guy for that matter, but that's another topic), but I felt absolutely awful at the venom people were spitting.

There's nothing that requires you to tolerate someone who hates people to the point of death. I've encountered that racism before where, if given the chance, they would kill a minority without concern. It's a sick level of human depravity.

Ya well that is really awful. It certainly is intolerable to tolerate hate isn't it? But when we hate someone we feel justified. In a sick twisted way they feel justified too. You don't have to tolerate anyone really. I'm just trying to make the point that not all racists are really as bad as they are made out to be. I live in the eastern shore of Maryland. There is some minor racism here to a degree but if you head over to Tilghman Island and expect to find a severe level of it. Back in the 60's this spot was apparently very torn by racism but as of now it seems to be almost impossible to find. I don't think that all racists hate a certain race. They may just not like them.

Originally Posted by GestaltAlteration

To assume people have not perceived the basic group differences by college is where the resentment comes in; why am I being pounded in the head every day with such elementary details? Is it really changing the judgment seriously of people who have already entered adulthood? Shouldn't parents and growing up have covered this in contemporary times? And hey, I perfectly understand some tolerance teaching at universities, but I'm talking about a constant barrage year after year after year. It's doing a wonderful job of preemptively fostering a judgmental attitude in me undoing everything my parents have taught me. Hopefully this will change after getting out of this pseudo intellectual cesspool and into real life. I strongly suspect it will revert back and look forward to

I think you are taking the issue a little too personally.

You seem surprised (and, indeed, insulted) by the "assumption" that people haven't learned tolerance by their college years. The fact of the matter is that very many people haven't. Many people. In fact, I think that the number of people in this nation who still have (and indoctrinate) racist views is downplayed by certain demographics, just as it is over-hyped by others. Just as there are those people who are a little too anxious about someone being racist, there are those people who are out-of-touch with just how much racism still exists, because it is not something they deal with or experience often.

This is to take nothing away from the fact that there are some institutions that will drill the idea of tolerance into your heads. When going to something as all-encompassing as a University, I would think one could only expect (and accept) such a thing. Just because you (and maybe your circle of friends) aren't racially biased, it doesn't mean that many of those people whom you're sitting beside, everyday, aren't. And I give no slack to those who practice "reverse racism." I refuse to acknowledge the concept. Reverse racism is still racism. Period. It doesn't matter who is degrading who, or for what (perceived) 'reason.' If I was a white man, I could imagine myself getting fed-up with all of the melodramatic cries of racism that even I hear, on an almost daily basis. But, as a black man, I have some context. I understand that, while some people do go overboard, and do see what they 'want' to see, it is partially due to many legitimate instances of racism that they have probably encountered (and continue to encounter) throughout their lives.

Most of my friends are white, and this is a subject that we talk about, quite frequently. I can definitely empathize, and I know that there are minorities who exploit the issue (whether consciously or unconsciously), but from my own personal experience, racism isn't nearly as dead as some people would like to believe. Many of those people just frequent an environment where it's either not very common, or completely overlooked.

These threads pop up a lot here. In before endless posts on whether it's ok to say "nigger" or not.

Have not had a single 'tolerance awareness' type of deal all throughout college. We have a lot of diversity events around but it's really just learning about other cultures and not about acceptance or whatever.

In elementary/middle/high school we had a lot of the old we're all crayons in a box. All different sizes and packages. Different colors and hues.

All we are are just shapeless lumps of wax and food coloring.