Thread: Lucid Dreamers Help Scientists Locate the Seat of Meta-Consciousness in the Brain

Very interesting. I haven't looked in this sub forum since I first got here.

That is some interesting research. I thought that this was proven before, didn't know that they had it still in Hypothesis state.

I like the idea of forgetting your age in a lucid. It has given me an idea for some fun LDs. Haha. Feeling really old or really young in a dream would be really fun! Might have to try and change the age I think I am when lucid for a while.

See I've always wondered why there isn't more research into the dorso-lateral prefrontal cortex to induce lucidity. You'd think there would be some drug that could activate it in REM sleep, probably it's not that simple.

I feel that limiting our exploration into Dreaming, lucid or otherwise to the purely physical (brain) is akin to Western Medicines ignoring the more subtle energy systems surrounding our bodies when seeking to heal the physical body.

Kirlian photography has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are much more than our physical shell. Thousands of years before Western medicine came on the scene, practitioners in the far east were treating the energy systems to bring about real healing. It seems all Western medicine has done is treat symptoms with drugs, rather than find the root of the problem, and induce true healing to it's patients. Of course I am not speaking to the mending of broken skin and bones...

I cannot fathom the seat of our souls, as a physical spot in our brains, but more of a place where consciousness resides within our energy bodies. Out-of-body experiences would seem to confirm this...

While drugs may alter the way our consciousness perceives reality, I don't wish to let it alter/or activate something physical in my brain as that would seem to muddy the waters of clear, and unaltered experience.

Basically I would rather see us move away from the quick-fix, take a pill method of short-cutting the evolution of our consciousness...Individual or mass. Look at what that mentality has done to us from a medical standpoint. Everyday you see new drugs introduced to treat this symptom, or that disease, only to see commercials a few years later about lawsuits because of even worse conditions caused by the drugs. YAZ being the latest I've seen. Heart attack, stroke, death....FROM A BIRTH CONTROL PILL/PATCH, or whatever it was.

Allright, stepping off soapbox now...

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

think there would be some drug that could activate it in REM sleep, probably it's not that simple.

You could substitute probably, with defintely....LOL. Nice insight!

I read the article, is quite a good thing to explore the conscienceness of humans in the most elbaorated brain/mind/soul part the Dream. I really hope that they keep dig in it and discover much more angles of dreams, not to look them in a pill but to understand human mind and help people who suffer through dreams, like Depression or PTS.

Oh - this is great - I almost opened a new thread on exactly this study!
This work has been going on for a long time - I came to know a neurologist of Charité Berlin, who took part in this sort of research already more than 10 years ago.
For quite a while scientists where on a quest to find the centre of consciousness - assuming it was some isolated part of the brain, which generates the phenomenon.
Thanks to this and other studies, it is now held that consciousness rather is an emergent phenomenon stemming from interactions between several regions, which communicate and create a synchronised pattern of firing frequencies.

Bit more from the study of the op - the problem with discerning which brain-activities are specific for gaining consciousness, it is not a good method to watch fMRI and EEG patterns when people wake up, since loads of things are getting activated then in parallel.

From the study of the op:

The human capacity of self-perception, self-reflection and consciousness development are among the unsolved mysteries of neuroscience.
“The general basic activity of the brain is similar in a normal dream and in a lucid dream,” says Michael Czisch, head of a research group at the Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry. “In a lucid state, however, the activity in certain areas of the cerebral cortex increases markedly within seconds. The involved areas of the cerebral cortex are the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, to which commonly the function of self-assessment is attributed, and the frontopolar regions, which are responsible for evaluating our own thoughts and feelings. The precuneus is also especially active, a part of the brain that has long been linked with self-perception.”

I might do a collection of the more studies done on dreaming in general and lucid dreaming specifically.

But since there is something else from the same group as the op - I´ll put it in here as well:

Scientists measure dream content for the first time
Dreams activate the brain in a similar way to real actions

The scientists measured that the brain activity during the dreamed motion matched the one observed during a real executed movement in a state of wakefulness.
...
They (participants) were then asked to voluntarily “dream” that they were repeatedly clenching first their right fist and then their left one for ten seconds
....
The brain activity measured from this time onwards corresponded with the arranged “dream” involving the fist clenching. A region in the sensorimotor cortex of the brain, which is responsible for the execution of movements, was actually activated during the dream. This is directly comparable with the brain activity that arises when the hand is moved while the person is awake.
...
“Our dreams are therefore not a ‘sleep cinema’ in which we merely observe an event passively, but involve activity in the regions of the brain that are relevant to the dream content.”


Left side - doing it awake - right side doing it in a lucid dream.

What this seems to indicate is that it is indeed so, that one can "train" certain things - like skill and expertise in sport - while dreaming.

This is fascinating - I am a passionate darts-player.
Darts is - maybe not widely known, because of the image of a pub game played by fat drunk men - something that needs a really high level of concentration and refined motor control - believe me - it is very hard to become good at it.

Soo - first become proficient in lucid dreaming - and then maybe make a real leap in performance in my passionately loved pasttime.
Why not "dream" of something like this as well..

It actually makes me happy to see, that quite a lot of the studies come from Germany - so - maybe I can even get into contact with people scientifically interested in lucidity one day.

While I am at the moment only working on achieving lucidity myself again after a much too long time..
Weell - but recall is improving loads since joining the fun on here!

Another thing - since Freud has been discredited for loads of his stuff - and rightly so - dreams as a means of psychotherapy and psychiatry got stuffed under the carpet with him - definitively not rightfully so!!

Interesting stuff; thanks for sharing!

It's good to know that LD'ers are contributing; and amazing to know that there are LD'ers who can do their thing at request, and also while inserted into an fMRI machine!

It's also nice to see that the info gleaned is still pretty vague; it seems that each new discovery diminishes consciousness, so it's encouraging that things remain rudimentary.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Interesting stuff; thanks for sharing!

It's good to know that LD'ers are contributing; and amazing to know that there are LD'ers who can do their thing at request, and also while inserted into an fMRI machine!

It's also nice to see that the info gleaned is still pretty vague; it seems that each new discovery diminishes consciousness, so it's encouraging that things remain rudimentary.

Thank you!

I find it really amazing too, what some people can do.
In the lab and in such a confined tube - with ear-plugs against the hellish noise and electrodes on your head - I can´t even imagine to fall asleep under such conditions - let alone become lucid and so in control that you can do, what has been agreed on in advance.
Amazing!

And also limiting to this field of study - they could find out so much more, if there were more lucid "master-dreamers" at hand..

And yeah - I think the jump from looking at what the brain does - like producing a synchronized firing pattern, where this and that region chimes in at this and that time - to the phenomenon as it is individually experienced might never be really understood.

Maybe this is not even possible in general.

But it is important to know how it looks from the outside.
For example you can gain insight, if some of the patients thought to be in a "vegetative state", are in reality just unable to react to their surroundings but are conscious non the less and also have dreams (another study..).

It´s a horrifying thought - but on the other hand, it could help their physicians to know this, and maybe even reach them over their dreams one day.

Also you could see, if a narcosis really works - which it doesn´t some times, and most such people forget that, but are subconsciously traumatized non the less.


I do know though what you mean with diminishing - the mystery and selection of possible solutions to the puzzle do diminish.
But my awe and wonder at nature and it´s intricacies rises at the same time and makes me want to know more, and more ..

It's good to know that LD'ers are contributing; and amazing to know that there are LD'ers who can do their thing at request, and also while inserted into an fMRI machine!

Heard from a brazilian researcher that people pay loads of cash for these types of experiences, that certainly must be a bonus It would nice to have some kind of "database" or community that could support these researchers in terms of sample.

Originally Posted by Zoth

Heard from a brazilian researcher that people pay loads of cash for these types of experiences, that certainly must be a bonus It would nice to have some kind of "database" or community that could support these researchers in terms of sample.

We have a new member, Melanie Schaedlich - I contacted her, reading about a very interesting study of her´s.
Her saying hello on here: hello from a researcher

And here you can download her paper as pdf - or read it - from university Heidelberg: Applications of lucid dreams

Applications of lucid dreams: An online study
Melanie Schädlich 1 & Daniel Erlacher 2

Abstract:
Summary. In a lucid dream the dreamer is aware of the dream state and can influence the dream content and events.
The goal of this study was to investigate some applications of lucid dreaming. Our survey included 301 lucid dreamers
who filled out an online questionnaire. The most frequent application (81.4%) was having fun, followed by changing a
bad dream or nightmare into a pleasant one (63.8%), solving problems (29.9%), getting creative ideas or insights (27.6%)
and practicing skills (21.3%). Women used lucid dreams significantly more often than men for both work on nightmares
and problem solving. Our results show that lucid dreams have a great potential for improving one’s life in different ways.
More research is needed to illuminate the possibilities of lucid dreaming, especially in the fields of nightmare treatment
and practising motor skills.

I am too late for this - and have got a lot of preparation and practise in front of me - and maybe it won´t work out at all - but I very much am convinced to be able to get better at darts, if I manage to practise in LDs.
And that would be measurable, because I have online darts statistics over the last half of a year.
We will see - I hope, I can make this work for me.
A proof of it being possible - and how much of an effect, if it does have one? Depends on me a lot, sure..
Just dreaming..

A similar experiment to your darts idea has been made. Coincidentally, it was on Brasil, here's the original link for the news (yup, it made national news ^^)
Since you probably don't understand portuguese, here's a short summary:
They've told the subjects to try to land a coin in a glass. After that, they went to sleep, and those who got lucid and practiced the exercise in their dream, showed increased accuracy. Sadly I haven't found the study itself, but the researcher in question in a recent interview said he has plans to test brain wave manipulation to see the effect on lucid dreaming, and I managed to sneak into his university files and get his PHD thesis (muhahaha xD)

And since we're in the topic of motor skills, this video strikes me as interesting in a future lucid dreaming perspective:



Point is, if we assume that the higher degree of ability is caused by a more realistic motor procedure (because you know, actually making the movement would always increase specific brain activity more than just thinking), then lucid dreaming could further improve the results of the thinking group. From what I've dig around, lucid dreaming for sports psychology seems a very famous theme in german, or am I wrong? At least I found dozens of studies that refer to that topic.

The only sad part is without a reliable lucid dreaming induction method, the effectiveness of this type of training would be extremely low compared to traditional practices, else we could use it to revolutionize the health care: PTSD, phobia (with exposure-therapy), physical therapy, depression, anti-social behavior, panic attacks, the possibilities are endless.

Thanks for the study btw, it reminded me of the thread I've been wanting to make for ages about lucid dreaming articles, there's so much interesting discussion waiting to happen regarding a few of them!

Originally Posted by Zoth

A similar experiment to your darts idea has been made. Coincidentally, it was on Brasil, here's the original link for the news (yup, it made national news ^^)
Since you probably don't understand portuguese, here's a short summary:
They've told the subjects to try to land a coin in a glass. After that, they went to sleep, and those who got lucid and practiced the exercise in their dream, showed increased accuracy. Sadly I haven't found the study itself, but the researcher in question in a recent interview said he has plans to test brain wave manipulation to see the effect on lucid dreaming, and I managed to sneak into his university files and get his PHD thesis (muhahaha xD)

Thank you great post!!
I think, Mel has a paper with throwing coins as well - she told me something about it.

That it was exactly fine-motor throwing is a nice coincidence.
I wonder, why they chose exactly that.

I let an auto-translation run over the article from your link and put it in the spoiler:

Spoiler for autotranslated article:

Issue of the day 14/10/2011
14/10/2011 23h22 - Updated 15/10/2011 15h44
Biomedical scientists can communicate with during lucid dreaming
Lucid dreams are those in which we know we are dreaming. Most agrees to have this awareness, but a man went further.
Alberto Gaspar
Christmas


Dream scenario, summer, many glorious and radiant days. The capital of Rio Grande do Norte is also an important center for the study of the mysteries of dreams real, night. Or rather, that through conscious dreaming way.
Dreams in which we know to be dreaming: it excites neuroscientist Siddhartha Ribeiro, who directs the Brain Institute of the Federal University of Rio Grande do Norte. "In normal sleep, the person feels he is an actor of a movie she does not control. In a lucid dream, the person is the director of the dream, screenwriter, producer. It controls all the elements of the dream potentially "said Siddhartha.
learn more
Young should sleep more to help in the development, says expert
Insomnia affects women three times more than men
Associated with snoring, sleep apnea and threatens to overwhelm the heart
Lost sleep is not recoverable, see Tips for sleeping well
The topic has been well explored in the film. The film "The Origin" is a dizzying adventure with dreams within dreams within other dreams within dreams more. And all piloted by dreamers.
Greek Bruno, 29, is biomedical, doctoral student and volunteer dreamy airs on a survey of science fiction: "How do you know you are dreaming, you have more freedom to do things you would not normally do," explains Bruno.
"The possibilities are endless: one can fly," said Siddhartha. Like in the movies "The Matrix" trilogy: a scene of martial arts training is a classic. In real life, linked to teacher Siddhartha group German researchers have experimented with simple activities, like throwing coins.
"They put a shot from distance and that person had hit a currency in that cup. This cup placed increasingly distant and had a hit rate. Then the person came into lucid dreaming and trained this ability or not. When she came back, had, in fact, better performance, "said Siddhartha.
The problem is that, by becoming aware of being in a dream, most people tend to agree immediately. But in tests on Christmas mornings in the university hospital, Bruno was a volunteer with greater ability to continue sleeping.
"Lucid dreaming occurs only when the body has rested enough. The next person is waking up, going to the next vigil. So this transition to wakefulness, she awakens inside, instead of waking up, "Siddhartha account.
But what would be the advantage of that experience? Create a defense for those who suffered traumas that cause frequent nightmares?
"If we can induce lucid dreaming that person, it may, during the nightmare, recognize that it is only nightmare and have no fear or anxiety associated with nightmares," explains researcher at the Sleep Laboratory Sergio Rolim.
And how are these lucid dreams Bruno? "I have quite frequently, at least once or twice a week. Sometimes I can even resume the dream I was having. Have I dreamed when I was in the lab, which was within the laboratory. The ceiling opened up and started falling kites from the sky, "he says.
The tests try to even establish a communication between the sleeper and those who research: "I match the person with the dreamer to make a move with the eyes. Place the electrodes near the eye. If the person can have a lucid dream, she makes a move with the eyes, I wait a while, then that person makes the move, and according to the person, "Sergio says.
Detail: the signal is valid only if sleep is evidenced by the pattern of brain waves. Bruno has managed to communicate sleeping a challenge for those trying to unravel this mystery.
"I think we pay little attention to dreams," Siddhartha account.
But we can say that we are pioneers in studying sleep. Hospital das Clinicas in Sao Paulo, a monthly meeting brings together experts and students working under the guidance of a neurologist Reimão Rubens, founder of the Sleep Clinic for 34 years.
"Some people need more sleep, some people do not need much. This is true, but there is an important limit. The average we can talk in general adult population, is eight hours of sleep. We can say that a person can endure an hour less sleep for a while and you can get by in everyday life. But more than an hour less than she should sleep, she starts the next day to show consequences, such as drowsiness, accidents, sleeping at work, in school, "said Siddhartha.
The basic recommendation is sleep hygiene: treat it like one does with the teeth, with the power.

Originally Posted by Zoth

And since we're in the topic of motor skills, this video strikes me as interesting in a future lucid dreaming perspective:

Great video - we could do with a link to this thread in Astralboy´s .. I will do..
I actually also read about the findings mentioned - imagining/visualisation is powerful in sports and gets used in darts as well. Also making audio-tapes - but I did not yet do these things - complicated to explain.

Before you can visualise what you are doing, and in an optimised way - you got to have a good and sound technique.
Hm - should unfortunately also apply for LD, or not?

I mean - can my brain do an optimization-process in LD - smoothing out the motions, getting it right? That is a very important question.
It would be possible to watch yourself from the outside in 3. person perspective, as well.

Imaginary or dreamt muscle training might be part of the explanation, why people come out of confinement/hospital in differently atrophied muscle condition.

Originally Posted by Zoth

Point is, if we assume that the higher degree of ability is caused by a more realistic motor procedure (because you know, actually making the movement would always increase specific brain activity more than just thinking), then lucid dreaming could further improve the results of the thinking group. From what I've dig around, lucid dreaming for sports psychology seems a very famous theme in german, or am I wrong? At least I found dozens of studies that refer to that topic.

Oh great please - I would love to have more info - I do not know about all these studies - maybe Melanie is involved in some them as well - because there was something else, I think, of hers - maybe even these coins ..

But in general lucid dreaming is researched in Max Planck Institute (MPI) for Psychiatry, MPI for Cognitive and Neuroscience in Leipzig, Charité Berlin - Psychiatry besides Heidelberg;
and Charité Neurology are on about - or were on about a while ago - EEG in hypnosis.
There is indeed activity in the German scientific community!

Originally Posted by Zoth

The only sad part is without a reliable lucid dreaming induction method, the effectiveness of this type of training would be extremely low compared to traditional practices, else we could use it to revolutionize the health care: PTSD, phobia (with exposure-therapy), physical therapy, depression, anti-social behavior, panic attacks, the possibilities are endless.

I wonder about that. Maybe the people can over time and practice make the induction reliably effective from their side of the affair.
When people are already sick - it is maybe a bit late to start and try to teach them..

Who knows about LD to begin with - except yogis, people with esoteric interests, special scientists, who are "something neuro and/or psycho", creatives and a mixed but small assortment of affiliates.
But almost nobody, whom you ask in real life, has a concept what LD is about - let alone has any practice.

Most serious athletes, who did not experience LD anyway from themselves or other sources - were not likely be told to do so by their professional trainer.
Like every skill - practice and meaning it seriously can make a huge difference - maybe the existing induction techniques are sufficient.
When ambition comes into play.
Many dart-players play darts in their dreams anyway - because there is not a lot of stuff feeling better than throwing "perfect darts" ..
And because of playing/practising before going sleeping..
Not me - not naturally, unfortunately.
And - disclaimer - I am not yet any good at darts or LD - but that might be a good start..

Originally Posted by Zoth

Thanks for the study btw, it reminded me of the thread I've been wanting to make for ages about lucid dreaming articles, there's so much interesting discussion waiting to happen regarding a few of them!

Please - phantastisch!!

Found something new on metacognition and LDing - we've got more gray matter where the brain does thought-monitoring and it also works better!

Metacognitive Mechanisms Underlying Lucid Dreaming - Journal of Neuroscience

Abstract

Lucid dreaming is a state of awareness that one is dreaming, without leaving the sleep state. Dream reports show that self-reflection and volitional control are more pronounced in lucid compared with nonlucid dreams. Mostly on these grounds, lucid dreaming has been associated with metacognition. However, the link to lucid dreaming at the neural level has not yet been explored. We sought for relationships between the neural correlates of lucid dreaming and thought monitoring.

Human participants completed a questionnaire assessing lucid dreaming ability, and underwent structural and functional MRI. We split participants based on their reported dream lucidity. Participants in the high-lucidity group showed greater gray matter volume in the frontopolar cortex (BA9/10) compared with those in the low-lucidity group. Further, differences in brain structure were mirrored by differences in brain function. The BA9/10 regions identified through structural analyses showed increases in blood oxygen level-dependent signal during thought monitoring in both groups, and more strongly in the high-lucidity group.

Our results reveal shared neural systems between lucid dreaming and metacognitive function, in particular in the domain of thought monitoring. This finding contributes to our understanding of the mechanisms enabling higher-order consciousness in dreams.

The Neuroscience of Lucid Dreams - Illusion Chasers - Scientific American Blog Network

...
A recent study, published earlier this month in the Journal of Neuroscience, set out to determine if people with high and low dream lucidity were also dissimilar in their metacognitive ability, that is, the ability to reflect on, and report, one’s mental states.

The study participants completed questionnaires that assessed their lucid dreaming frequency, intensity, and degree of control, and also their metacognitive skills, including their self-reflection and self-consciousness. The experimental subjects moreover underwent brain imaging while conducting a thought monitoring task. This consisted of two 11-minute runs during which the subjects had to evaluate the each and every thought that entered their heads on an externally-internally oriented scale. Externally oriented thoughts meant thoughts related to the external environment, such as the visual surroundings, or the noise from the scanner. Internally oriented thoughts were not related to the immediate environment, such as remembering past events or planning for the day ahead.

The research showed that the brains of people with high and low dream lucidity were different. Subjects with high lucidity had greater gray matter volume in the frontopolar cortex, compared to those with low lucidity. This brain region also showed higher activity during thought monitoring in both high- and low-lucidity subjects, with stronger increases in the high-lucidity group. The scientists concluded that lucid dreaming and metacognition share some underlying mechanisms, particularly with regards to thought monitoring. This relationship had been previously suspected, but never before explored at the neural level.

Future research may tell us if it’s possible to control the frequency and contents of our lucid dreaming by training ourselves to monitor our thoughts while we’re awake. I, for one, would love some lucid dreams that don’t involve Freddy Krueger every now and then.

This is interesting, and it ties in beautifully with the anecdotal reports from meditators saying their lucid dreaming activities benefit from meditation. "Vipassana" medititation (often referred to as "mindfulness meditation") involves observing that, which is available for observation. Often this will be thoughts, and the meditator will often practice noticing their own thoughts.

Maybe that really is a kind of body-building for the part of the brain most involved with gaining lucidity during dreams.

Thanks StephL, as usual you're the one always reminding me about the latest articles

A recent article about lucid dreaming and mindfulness, make notice at which one of the two dimensions of mindfulness was reported as relevant!

Meta-awareness during day and night: the relationship between mindfulness and lucid dreaming

The present study explored the relationship between lucidity in dreams (awareness
of dreams while dreaming) and mindfulness during wakefulness, also considering
meditation as a possible moderating variable. An online survey was completed by
528 respondents, of whom 386 (73.1%) had lucid dream experiences. The reported
frequency of lucid dreams was found to be positively related to higher dispositional
mindfulness in wakefulness. This relationship was only present in those participants
who reported acquaintance with meditation. Regarding the dimensions of mindfulness,
lucid dream frequency was more strongly associated with mindful presence
rather than acceptance. The findings support the notion of an existing relationship
between lucidity in dreams and mindfulness during wakefulness, yet it remains
unclear whether the relationship is influenced by actual meditation practice or
whether it reflects some natural predispositions. Future studies should examine
the role of different meditation practices, investigate personality variables that
might influence the relationship, and explore how different facets of mindfulness
and lucidity interrelate.

My biggest interest on lucid dreaming induction at this point is about what is more effective:

a) Induction through cue association (pavlovian conditioning)
or
b) Induction through thought and/or reality monitoring

In a simple level, it's quite simple to picture each method: in a), the subject creates an association through repetition to the stimulus, to the point that it becomes automatic. I personally achieved this once with a dream sign of my, and it's something I'll have to explore again.
b) does require some more complex action, and I would believe that it under performs compared to a) because it requires more resources and it represents a higher difficulty in terms of cognitive functions (e.g. you need to know that X is strange, or that Y is not logical), and it assumes the dreamer by itself is capable of abstracting himself so he can analyse the environment. In terms of thought-monitoring, we're talking once again about an habit, but despite a), you don't have any cue associated with it: you're expected to simply perform the process out of the blue (in reality, it's like asking you to gain the habit of looking to your watch every 5 minutes).

PS: we need some experimental studies to get things moving 0o

Thank you Steph!! You have a real knack for posting some great gems on this site! The study's finding rings true to me. One of the important stages of my lucid dreaming development involved the idea that "I am he who is aware of my awareness" really sinking in (I first read this in ETWOLD). During day practices, I also commonly convert that type of thinking to simply "I am noticing my thoughts/emotions" (or thinking about my thoughts). I still have a long ways to go, but it seems well worth it since there seems to be so many benefits (besides lucid dream) to being able to monitor your thoughts and the underlying reasons for why we react a certain way to certain stimuli.

Zoth, I like your thoughts there. I think that an effective approach is combining a & b…looking at b as the slow and steady, long term approach which should supplement the quality of lucid dreams but should also aid induction in the long run.