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    Thread: Why Not Commit Suicide?

    1. #1
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      Why Not Commit Suicide?

      In this thread I'll be advocating that there is no reason not to commit suicide. Just for fun, obviously. If you believe or would like to argue differently, then feel free to reply.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Xei
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      Because on balance being alive makes me happy and no amount of philosophising can efface the axiomatic conviction that being happy feels good and should thus be preserved.
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      But conversely, if you feel unhappy then wouldn't it feel better not to exist? And therefore shouldn't unhappiness be ended?

      And also, how can you justify that something should be preserved because it feels good?

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    4. #4
      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      But conversely, if you feel unhappy then wouldn't it feel better not to exist? And therefore shouldn't unhappiness be ended?
      Well, presumably it wouldn't 'feel' like anything. But either way it seems irrelevant to my situation.

      And also, how can you justify that something should be preserved because it feels good?
      Can't. A justification is just reducing some kind of pattern or fact to more common, fundamental patterns or facts; but sometimes you're already at the lowest level. The fact that the interior angles of a square add up to a full turn, for instance, can be justified by appealing to various more fundamental facts about geometry. But naturally this process cannot go on forever, or knowledge would have no real basis. So in the end we simply have to accept some axioms as obviously true. In the case of the square, it's Euclid's axioms. In the case of feeling good being something one should want to maintain... that's already axiomatic.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Because on balance being alive makes me happy and no amount of philosophising can efface the axiomatic conviction that being happy feels good and should thus be preserved.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Well, presumably it wouldn't 'feel' like anything. But either way it seems irrelevant to my situation.


      Can't. A justification is just reducing some kind of pattern or fact to more common, fundamental patterns or facts; but sometimes you're already at the lowest level. The fact that the interior angles of a square add up to a full turn, for instance, can be justified by appealing to various more fundamental facts about geometry. But naturally this process cannot go on forever, or knowledge would have no real basis. So in the end we simply have to accept some axioms as obviously true. In the case of the square, it's Euclid's axioms. In the case of feeling good being something one should want to maintain... that's already axiomatic.
      How is that different from saying God exists because its axiomatically true?

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Because god ...isn't... axiomatically true?
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      its a rare oppertunity to be here on earth, so we should be thankfull to have it and take advantage of it

    9. #9
      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      How is that different from saying God exists because its axiomatically true?
      Because the fact that feeling good should be preserved is immediate to my comprehension, along with other axioms like 'I am currently perceiving your post', whereas the existence of God is not.

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      But why is one immediately comprehensibly true and not the other? What makes something true, if it doesn't need to be justified?

      What stops you from saying anything you want it axiomatically true just to avoid the argument?

      Quote Originally Posted by Qwer View Post
      its a rare oppertunity to be here on earth, so we should be thankfull to have it and take advantage of it
      Why should we be thankful just because it's "rare?" And how, by golly, can you possibly take advantage of being alive?

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    11. #11
      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      But why is one immediately comprehensibly true and not the other? What makes something true, if it doesn't need to be justified?
      Like I said, if you analyse what justification actually is, it becomes clear that actually not everything can be justified. The idea that every truth is a priori is an archaic hangover and kind of silly when you think about it deeply enough; if justification were necessary for truth, then those new facts which you used to justify are equally baseless and would require further justification, ad infinitum. Can you justify to me, or to yourself, that you're currently perceiving my post? I don't think you can, it's fundamental and immediate to your mind. Even if you could, can you justify the things you assumed in order to justify it?

      What stops you from saying anything you want it axiomatically true just to avoid the argument?
      Intellectual honesty.

      There's also the assumption that one's own mind is a good likeness of the minds of your interlocutors.

      But if somebody said that they experienced indubitable knowledge of God as an axiom, I would submit to their understanding (although of course I wouldn't be able to deduce anything from their conviction myself, as it is an observed fact that some people are insane).

      Interestingly enough, however, I've never actually seen a theist argue in that way.

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      I have.

      But more importantly, I agree that requiring everything to be justified would mean having to extend an infinite amount of support. But that doesn't mean something is true just because you've decided it doesn't warrant a deeper inspection.

      Simply because something would require an infinite amount of support doesn't mean you should do away with any support whatsoever and accept it as true. All it means is that the capacity is always there to look deeper.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post

      Why should we be thankful just because it's "rare?" And how, by golly, can you possibly take advantage of being alive?
      you can take advantage by not wasting it with suicide, by helping people, being a good person, experienceing things, exploring your consciousness and living

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Qwer View Post
      you can take advantage by not wasting it with suicide, by helping people, being a good person, experienceing things, exploring your consciousness and living
      And what is the point in that? What are you wasting with suicide? Why should you help people? What does it even mean to be a good person? Why experience, or explore your consciousness?

      What if, hypothetically speaking, you don't have the opportunity to do those things? Most of us have to work very, very hard just to stay here, stay fed, take care of our loved ones, etc. What if, rather than proactively seek suicide, someone decided to just stop working so damned hard and let themselves die of natural causes after they lose their house and their source of nourishment?

      Most of us, as much as we may desire to help others and have fun experiences and explore our consciousness, cannot do so very often. As much fun as being alive is, it's also kind of a pain in the ass, a lot of the time. And a lot of people think it's a pain in the ass most of the time, and hold on for the sake of their loved ones but not because they're actually happy or enjoying their time here. I would love nothing more than to wake up every morning, greet a beautiful day, ponder whatever I wanted to, experience whatever I wanted to, and then go help people and be a good person. But in this world, survival can take up so much time and energy that what I want to do simply doesn't coincide with what I need to do. I certainly still get to do what I want some of the time, but a lot of the time I'm simply working, pushing my boulder up that hill. And during this time, I look forward to when things will change and I don't have to work and do things I don't want to do. But do you understand the confusion here? For me to not kill myself, it appears I must do what I do not want to do, at least with the majority of my time.

      And another question, let's say someone is dealing with the debilitating regret of killing like, I don't know, 7 people in a car accident. Every second they live is in agonizing guilt. Should they just strive to make up for it, bury themselves in some altruistic fascination? Ignore the fact that they can't live with themselves and chase some notion of redemption? Should they forgive themselves and act like nothing happened?

      I know a lot of people who committed suicide, and I have a hard time figuring out how I could have possibly talked them out of it, not any of them. One of my friends was addicted to downers and hung himself. He did it for a lot of reasons but the main one was his drug related demon. How do you tell someone in the grip of such a strong addiction that they should remain alive, just because otherwise it's a waste? A waste of what? One guy suffering so much he can only find solace in brief little moments where he gets high?

      I know that things change, and people in these states of suffering can move out of them and find a happier state like Xei described. But it's also true that things change, and Xei's happiness most likely won't last the rest of his life. Like Buddha, Einstein and everybody else, he'll go through good times and bad. Are the good times really worth the bad? Or are they equal, so there's no real, easily verifiable difference between being alive and dead other than being able to experience and not?

      I mean let's take Sisyphus. According to Camus' interpretation, Sisyphus could leap from the cliff at any time. He could kill himself if he liked. His duty was to roll a boulder up a hill... for eternity. This sounds like a predicament where most of us would choose death, almost axiomatically (teehee). When presented with an eternity of labor, wouldn't you prefer some sort of change, even if this change is simply the end? But Camus argued Sisyphus was happy, because if he wasn't, he would have killed himself. Seems plausible enough, if you're not happy you'd quit. Except I have a suspicion that lots and lots of people are unhappy lots of the time, and they cling to life not because they've surrendered to their predicament but because they await change, and believe they will escape whatever pile of shit they're in, eventually.

      For me, I'm usually pretty happy. Not all the time, of course, but most of the time. Even while doing something I don't want to do, I surrender to it and that acceptance tends to make it slightly more bearable. But this is also why I don't understand how happiness is axiomatically a good reason to stay alive, especially if staying alive means doing what you don't want to do, as it does for most people. I am happy as a defense because it feels better than suffering, because if I had a choice between being unhappy and happy, I'd choose happiness. So I do, because there is a choice. This is why I don't see how happiness justifies continuing existence. Happiness justifies itself because it feels easier than unhappiness. That's it. It does not appear to justify life in any way.

      And furthermore, surviving means causing suffering to others, for many of us. I suppose you could be a vegetarian and tell yourself plants don't have feelings. But if you choose to eat meat, you're choosing to cause suffering in some way. What if we met some alien race that evolved as predators and could not digest vegetables, and had to cause suffering to remain alive? What if these people, despite how happy they were and how much they helped others, decided to commit mass suicide in order to stop the suffering of the animals they killed? Would this be a justified suicide or self-extinction?
      Last edited by Original Poster; 08-10-2012 at 08:57 AM.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      I committed suicide one time, it isn't as great as you'd think.

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      It's too much of a commitment.
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      Omnis, you've always struck me as a child in the "why" stage. You can always ask why if you want, but sometimes it's useless, pointless, and/or redundant and you may as well learn to accept some form of an answer and gain some insight from it. You may think you are being deep or challenging by continuing to ask for justification for things but beyond a certain point to continue questioning even that which is obvious just devolves in to repetitive rambling that does a better job of wasting time than coming to any conclusions. For progress to occur, mistakes must be made, which means some needed (whether foreseen or unforeseen) justifications must go unjustified for the sake of moving forward and not backward, and these mistakes must be acknowledged and analyzed in order for useful and pertinent questions and answers to arise. Continuing to ask "why" past the point of its advantageous status is a waste of time.
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      an argument against suicide would be failed suicide, in which you leave yourself in a much worse situation and possibly facing a prison sentence or end up in a mental facility. such as jumping in front of a train and waking up in the hospital paralyzed or shooting yourself in the head and ending up mentally retarded.

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      This question is hard to answer but I will try. There is no point in committing suicide. Heres why. ALL PROBLEMS are temporary. So why would use a permanent solution (killing yourself) for a problem that is only temporary. It doesn't even make any sense to even do such a thing such as committing suicide. If you are facing a problem that just appears that will never stop then CHANGE your beliefs. Beliefs have a HUGE impact on our lives. Get rid of those negative beliefs and exchange them for more self empowering ones. Only then can you conquer life's trials.

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      There is no absolute meaning to life; in fact, there is no such thing as meanings and reasons in an absolute context. A meaning to life is something given to you by yourself.
      So indeed, from the perspective of the "universe", there is no reason why you wouldn't want to commit suicide, because reasons are decided by you individually, through your emotion and reason.

      So why do most of us decide to live then? Well, that's very simply because living things always "try" to survive; if there was no such urge, that species would go extinct instantly.
      From the perspective of a human, you have instincts and feelings ingrained in your mind which make you try to stay alive. This is why most people fear death. It's an irrational fear, technically, but from a biological point of view, it makes perfect sense.
      Last edited by BahamutZERO; 08-11-2012 at 01:37 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by BahamutZERO View Post
      There is no absolute meaning to life; in fact, there is no such thing as meanings and reasons in an absolute context. A meaning to life is something given to you by yourself.
      So indeed, from the perspective of the "universe", there is no reason why you wouldn't want to commit suicide, because reasons are decided by you individually, through your emotion and reason.

      So why do most of us decide to live then? Well, that's very simply because living things always "try" to survive; if there was no such urge, that species would go extinct instantly.
      From the perspective of a human, you have instincts and feelings ingrained in your mind which make you try to stay alive. This is why most people fear death. It's an irrational fear, technically, but from a biological point of view, it makes perfect sense.
      Thats a good point you made there and I agree. Suicide isn't a natural instinct. It is something someone does based on how someone is feeling during that moment. One one TRULY feels that all is lost they resort to suicide as a final option.

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      "I dont want to live, but i really dont want to die"
      - The Avett Brothers
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      Suicide is a right every living being reserves and should feel no shame in exercising, in my opinion. I tend to believe that this isn't "it", that there's more to existence. I also believe there's a reason we are here, but maybe your reason for being here was to commit suicide and effect whatever resulting consequences the world would experience as a result of your suicide? I love my life right now. There are times when things suck, but generally speaking, the circumstances of existence are pretty glorious. However, if I began suffering from crazy mental health issues or something happened where I decided I was done with this life, I don't think it's wrong for me to make my own exit. Ultimately, it seems like nothing really matters anyways. If your life is mostly suffering and awfulness, then suicide doesn't strike me as so unreasonable. Either there's an afterlife, which I'm convinced would be purely awesome and have none of that silly eternal torment stuff, OR, there ISN'T, and you simply go into peaceful oblivion.

      My thinking though, is that if you are at the point of suicide, why not just start taking extreme-risk behaviors until you END UP dead? If I ever hit "suicide time", I think I'd just abandon all my fucks and go do something crazy to get myself killed rather than simply hanging myself. But then I guess when you hit that point all you really want is for it to be over.
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      Quote Originally Posted by ThisWitheredMan View Post
      Suicide is a right every living being reserves and should feel no shame in exercising, in my opinion. I tend to believe that this isn't "it", that there's more to existence. I also believe there's a reason we are here, but maybe your reason for being here was to commit suicide and effect whatever resulting consequences the world would experience as a result of your suicide? I love my life right now. There are times when things suck, but generally speaking, the circumstances of existence are pretty glorious. However, if I began suffering from crazy mental health issues or something happened where I decided I was done with this life, I don't think it's wrong for me to make my own exit. Ultimately, it seems like nothing really matters anyways. If your life is mostly suffering and awfulness, then suicide doesn't strike me as so unreasonable. Either there's an afterlife, which I'm convinced would be purely awesome and have none of that silly eternal torment stuff, OR, there ISN'T, and you simply go into peaceful oblivion.

      My thinking though, is that if you are at the point of suicide, why not just start taking extreme-risk behaviors until you END UP dead? If I ever hit "suicide time", I think I'd just abandon all my fucks and go do something crazy to get myself killed rather than simply hanging myself. But then I guess when you hit that point all you really want is for it to be over.
      You know what. I agree with this. I also believe there is an afterlife as well. Not the typical religious afterlife but an afterlife none the less. I agree that we incarnated here for a reason and purpose. I agree that you HAVE the right to end your life but only in the most dire of circumstances. Personally if I get something that can't be cured like some sort of mental illness like Alzheimers, I don't want to live the rest of my life NOT knowing who I am. But if it is something that can be overcome then suicide would not be necessary. Almost all problems are temporary so why use a permanent solution for a temporary problem?
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      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      Omnis, you've always struck me as a child in the "why" stage. You can always ask why if you want, but sometimes it's useless, pointless, and/or redundant and you may as well learn to accept some form of an answer and gain some insight from it. You may think you are being deep or challenging by continuing to ask for justification for things but beyond a certain point to continue questioning even that which is obvious just devolves in to repetitive rambling that does a better job of wasting time than coming to any conclusions. For progress to occur, mistakes must be made, which means some needed (whether foreseen or unforeseen) justifications must go unjustified for the sake of moving forward and not backward, and these mistakes must be acknowledged and analyzed in order for useful and pertinent questions and answers to arise. Continuing to ask "why" past the point of its advantageous status is a waste of time.
      Probing deeper into life does not inhibit me from action, nor from making mistakes. Frankly, if an examination of the "obvious" devolves into useless rambling, you're not doing it right.

      Quote Originally Posted by ThisWitheredMan View Post
      Suicide is a right every living being reserves and should feel no shame in exercising, in my opinion. I tend to believe that this isn't "it", that there's more to existence. I also believe there's a reason we are here, but maybe your reason for being here was to commit suicide and effect whatever resulting consequences the world would experience as a result of your suicide? I love my life right now. There are times when things suck, but generally speaking, the circumstances of existence are pretty glorious. However, if I began suffering from crazy mental health issues or something happened where I decided I was done with this life, I don't think it's wrong for me to make my own exit. Ultimately, it seems like nothing really matters anyways. If your life is mostly suffering and awfulness, then suicide doesn't strike me as so unreasonable. Either there's an afterlife, which I'm convinced would be purely awesome and have none of that silly eternal torment stuff, OR, there ISN'T, and you simply go into peaceful oblivion.

      My thinking though, is that if you are at the point of suicide, why not just start taking extreme-risk behaviors until you END UP dead? If I ever hit "suicide time", I think I'd just abandon all my fucks and go do something crazy to get myself killed rather than simply hanging myself. But then I guess when you hit that point all you really want is for it to be over.
      You're right. If I hit a suicidal state, I think rather than commit suicide I would address every issue in my life that is causing me to want to commit suicide but that I was to afraid to address before I considered the fact that I was about to die (or at least no longer clinging to life). That's why I like this conversation. We cling to a whole lot of other shit the moment we decide to live rather than die, and this is often a lot of useless baggage. I think of it like the movie Office Space, or perhaps like the scene from Louie directly after he watches the homeless man's head get popped off. That state of mind is one of abandon, to some degree. While suicide is not being actively chosen, all the little desires have faded. In Office Space, the main character stops giving a shit about being polite to his bosses or letting them stomp all over him and suffocate him. He's at total peace, total surrender. In Louie, Louis is on his way to a date when he witnesses someone die in front of him and it puts him in such a strange mood he doesn't give a fuck about trying to get the girl to like him, and so she ends up getting really attracted to him.

      There is something to gain from thinking about life and death, and about what you're really living for. Once you realize what that is, you can give up the other nonsense. I mean sure, you might die. IRL, the guy from Office Space might have just gotten fired in 5 minutes and not gotten another job and simply starve to death. Who the fuck knows, it's uncertain. But if you stop clinging to life, you can revel in the uncertainty, and live a life without compromise. You can seek some real fucking peace and happiness and enjoyment.
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