Thread: Is there anything you LIKE about *atheism* *religion*?

Originally Posted by juroara

Not the agnostic debate again! Poor agnostics!

>Implying agnostics exist.

This is my personal experience of genuine agnostics.

Oh yes, personal experience. In a conflict of semantics. This should go well.

The agnostic theist for example doesn't believe in the belief of God. The only God they will ever believe in is a God they can experience directly. (saltyseedog's comment would put him in this category). But until they experience God directly, they remain skeptical of all beliefs relating to God. It is this skepticism of all beliefs relating to God that they find common ground with agnostic atheists. Now the agnostic atheist is also skeptical of God, but more than that, they are skeptical of the beliefs and concepts that people hold of God. For example, a regular atheist might say "I don't believe in the old man in the sky therefore I don't believe in God". Where as the agnostic atheist would say "IF God is real, God is not an old man in the sky."

Yeah...no. Agnostic atheist doesn't mean disbelief of beliefs of believers. It means disbelief in any sort of god without the audacity to claim absolute knowledge that there is no god. An agnostic atheist that is behaving properly won't discard any set of beliefs from the pool of possibility, save for those that are logically contradictory.

You're also implying that most atheists are gnostic (make the positive claim that they know no god exists) by stating "regular atheist", when quite the opposite is true.

In other words, both agnostic groups are first and foremost skeptical of the concepts that people have of God. An agnostic atheist for example, is less likely to ask a theist to provide evidence of God. Because part of the agnosticism would mean that no such objective evidence could ever be provided. The same goes for an agnostic theist. The agnostic theist would never try to present objective evidence of God, and they would tell you that no objective evidence could ever be provided. In terms of evidence, both agnostic types take the same stance.

Very good, evidence for or against god is impossible. That, however, has no bearing on what constitutes an agnostic atheist or theist.

PS. The website above is using the term gnostic in confusing ways. Gnostic is not simply the belief that we can know whether or not God is real. That's missing the point of gnosticism entirely. Gnosticism is the belief that true knowledge is a spiritual and enlightening experience, versus something written down in a book, like the bible. This is why Gnostic Christians were persecuted, because they would not take the bible as the word of God and bow down to the church. This is also why it's the agnostic theist (one who remains skeptical of all beliefs retaining to God) who seeks gnosis, and not the other way around.

Changing definitions of words at the end is like taking a football to a squash game. Unless everyone is on the same page, someone is gonna get hurt.

Holy ass

17 Kinds of Atheism

This'll clear things up

I'm a gnostic, positive, broad, indifferent, open, active atheist

Originally Posted by Solarflare

Holy ass

17 Kinds of Atheism

This'll clear things up

I'm a gnostic, positive, broad, indifferent, open, active atheist

Center ground on gnostic and agnostic, positive, broad (can a narrow atheist even be called an atheist?), unfriendly, open, active, middle ground.

I say middle ground on the last one because I don't practice anything except the morals.

^But the morals don't originate from that religion. They come from you and your instincts

I'm a gnostic, positive, broad, friendly, open, active and passive depending on where, non religious.... that is towards the gods humanity imagined. I'm not denying the possibility of a god like creature maybe possibly somewhere doign something, though unlikely. If it's out there, it certainly doesn't care about humans.

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

Center ground on gnostic and agnostic, positive, broad (can a narrow atheist even be called an atheist?), unfriendly, open, active, middle ground.

I say middle ground on the last one because I don't practice anything except the morals.

what does the unfriendly/indifferent/friendly mean?

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Do you believe in god?

I'll use JoS's graph for you, edited with my crappy shoopin' skills.



Is it impossible for an unresolved agnostic to exist on that middle line there?
I know what I believe in, and making me decide to shift positions from my indifference about God's existence to atheist and theist isn't going to help the thread.

I observe many people who are christian and see that they are kind of obsessed and judgmental towards themselves and others based on a moral code that they have put together in their mind. I find this to be unhealthy and against natural healing. It is not good to judge yourself. Its like saying I am not worthy of love for who I am. You have to be accepting of yourself and who you are. I believe in following the moral compass of your heart. So yes it is moral. But not moral in way that is just something you came up with in your mind. Its like the morality of your soul. Which is free and unconditionally loving. And that is what god is. God loves the bad and the good equally and so should you!

That graph is kinda wrong. It doesn't take consideration that agnosticism doesn't affect theism/atheism at all, and you can only be one of the two. Theist or atheist. And you can be agnostic or gnostic. To situate a dot in that graph right in the center of the theism scale is to misuse the descriptions.

Look, I made a better graph. It shows how these descriptions actually work. The four corner options are the only ones that you can choose.

ok :/

Originally Posted by Solarflare

what does the unfriendly/indifferent/friendly mean?

I could never explain it as good as it's explained in the link.

Originally Posted by mikeac

I'll use JoS's graph for you, edited with my crappy shoopin' skills.

[IMG]http://i56.tinypic.com/2qd3b5h.jpg

Is it impossible for an unresolved agnostic to exist on that middle line there?
I know what I believe in, and making me decide to shift positions from my indifference about God's existence to atheist and theist isn't going to help the thread.

There it is! You're an apatheist.

The unresolved position doesn't exist in this thread or in the world I guess.

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

There it is! You're an apatheist.

I guess that could be true.

Is that even a real word, or did you just combine apathy and theist?

Apatheism is a form of atheism, no?

Originally Posted by mikeac

The unresolved position doesn't exist in this thread or in the world I guess.



I guess that could be true.

Is that even a real word, or did you just combine apathy and theist?

Apatheism is a form of atheism, no?

It's a real word, or at least a commonly used one. It's more of a modern word, though, so I'm not surprised you didn't recognize it.

It's not necessarily a form of atheism, but I guess you could say that. It's just a simple, "I don't care".

So, an agnostic apatheist would claim that, "You can't know if a god exists so I don't really care if he does," and a gnostic apatheist would claim that, "You may be able to prove that a god exists but I still don't care anyway," and a strictly apatheist person would state "I don't care and don't really see how others do."

a gnostic apatheist would either be what you said OR be like he doesnt exist, im sure of it, and thats why IDGAF

Originally Posted by Solarflare

a gnostic apatheist would either be what you said OR be like he doesnt exist, im sure of it, and thats why IDGAF

Well, it depends if he's leaning atheist or theist I guess.

oui oui

Originally Posted by mikeac

So, an agnostic apatheist would claim that, "You can't know if a god exists so I don't really care if he does," and a gnostic apatheist would claim that, "You may be able to prove that a god exists but I still don't care anyway," and a strictly apatheist person would state "I don't care and don't really see how others do."

Well, I don't agree on your gnostic apatheist, because that's a bit more ignorant than I could imagine anyone being.

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

Well, I don't agree on your gnostic apatheist, because that's a bit more ignorant than I could imagine anyone being.

Yeah, I like Solarflare's description much better than mine.

I find it unusual that people who don't believe in god are so eager to label themselves based off of something they do not believe in. I do not believe in unicorns but I don't go around calling myself a "non-unicorn-believer". Atheism is a negation of a belief not an affirmation of one.

There is a pretty good thread http://www.dreamviews.com/f37/theolo...tivism-118099/ that touches upon the subject that strong atheism is absurd because it assumes that the very ambiguous term "god" is an expressible, coherent thing to not believe in.

Originally Posted by stormcrow

I find it unusual that people who don't believe in god are so eager to label themselves based off of something they do not believe in. I do not believe in unicorns but I don't go around calling myself a "non-unicorn-believer". Atheism is a negation of a belief not an affirmation of one.

That's only the loud mouth obnoxious atheists who want to feel superior to others. Most aren't that way. Most only label themselves atheist (or agnostic, falsely) when the situation requires confirmation of religious status.

Originally Posted by JussiKala

That's only the loud mouth obnoxious atheists who want to feel superior to others. Most aren't that way. Most only label themselves atheist (or agnostic, falsely) when the situation requires confirmation of religious status.

In my opinion the world needs more "loud mouthed obnoxious atheists".

Faltering under social pressure to subscribe to a label is a bit sad. When someone asks me what religion I am, I say I simply don't believe in any gods. Likewise when someone asks me if I am a Republican or a Democrat I reply neither because that seems to me to be the most honest answer.

That's good. But the world does not need more of the obnoxious kind. The world needs more of them who push on against the religious discrimination in a reasonable manner. Not going around insulting every religious person, that's not the kind of image we really should want to form of ourselves.

Originally Posted by mikeac

I'll use JoS's graph for you, edited with my crappy shoopin' skills.



Is it impossible for an unresolved agnostic to exist on that middle line there?
I know what I believe in, and making me decide to shift positions from my indifference about God's existence to atheist and theist isn't going to help the thread.

The bottom line is, if it cannot be said that you believe in god, then you are an atheist. Specifically, an implicit one.

Originally Posted by JussiKala

That's good. But the world does not need more of the obnoxious kind. The world needs more of them who push on against the religious discrimination in a reasonable manner. Not going around insulting every religious person, that's not the kind of image we really should want to form of ourselves.

By obnoxious atheist I assumed you meant atheist who are outspoken about their skepticism regarding religion which I certainly condone. I definitely agree that applying pressure to religious beliefs should be done in a reasonable fashion instead of useless ad hominem attacks. I don't insult religious people personally but I also don't respect their beliefs or their book that promotes homophobia, persecution of women, human sacrifice and other morally reprehensible archaic beliefs.