Thread: Published in Nature Neuroscience: 77% induction rate with electrodes on the scalp at 40 Hertz

Yes it´s adjustable but in too high steps (so your smallest current is 1 mA).

Originally Posted by marc119

Any chance to use an android device instead of iOS?

Of course. Same thing. The android app has the uniquely original name of " lucid Dreaming App"
It detects REM and can play any audio file on your device.

Originally Posted by thewolf16

Please, please don´t use TENS. It´s to dangerous because it´s way to strong (5-60 mA instead of 0.25 mA).

Ok. Let's make a few things clear: a TENS device and an EMS device is exactly the same device - actually most are both. The only difference is in the settings. In TENS settings, frequency and intensity are calibrated for nerve stimulation and pain relief. In EMS settings, all parameters are calibrated for muscle stimulation and contraction. Same device, same signal, different settings... Got that? So, devices with adjustable settings can do both. Now, usually TENS settings are the light ones and produce a mild tingling sensation (are basically absolutely safe) , while EMS are typically stronger for muscle contractures. I have a TENS device (as well as an EMS one) and let me tell you what happens: when the TENS is placed over a muscle and high intensity is selected....you get muscle contractures!
When I stick the TENS electrodes on my forehead, I just get a tingling sensation - no harm for 8 mins that I tried....
So, in this post you say that TENS gives 5-60mA (and this is strong), and in your next post you say 1mA (!!) - and is strong again. Let me remind you that Jeff used 2mA and instead of burning his brain, he just got lucid!

Originally Posted by thewolf16

Also this current isn´t controllable while you´re sleeping.

Do you really think that the Luciding current will be controllable while you sleep????
Actually, the device I suggested, comes with a safety amplitude cap to prevent accidental knob movement during sleep. The problem with the device that I noticed after my post is that it is difficult to set to 40 Hz - you have to guess.
image.jpg
So, I have just ordered a more precise one (innoTENS-sd) as well as a time delay relay (Cycle Timer Module PLC).

Originally Posted by thewolf16

Don´t try this anything in this way when you don´t know what you are doing. You can cook your brain.

If you want my opinion, the ones that really don't know what they are doing, are the Luciding kids - in a recent post in their Facebook page, they showed an EOG and said it was an EEG!! Appart from that, it was so noisy you could barely see a signal...and from that they will make conclusions!
I would personally never put their device on - if they ever sent one. That, would be dangerous!
If I was you, I would ask for a refund right away and either make a device myself or wait for the next commercial device from a more reliable team.

To be fair, Wolf is referring to the figure that Voss, et al used.

"tACS. Low-intensity sinusoidal alternating current (250 μA peak to peak) was applied through a battery-operated CE-certified stimulator (NeuroConn Stimulator Plus) to induce frequency-specific alterations of the EEG. Specifically, four electrodes (3.5 × 4 cm2, connected pair-wise) were attached to the scalp at positions close to F3 and F4 and over the mastoids close to TP9 and TP10 (Supplementary Fig. 2a–c), resulting in a maximum current density of
18 μA cm–2 at the scalp. Current flow therefore alternated bilaterally between frontal and temporal positions. Current strength was chosen well below sensory and below phosphene threshold, and smooth ramp-up/ramp-down phases were used to avoid awakening of the subject."

(Nature Neuroscience - doi:10.1038/nn.3719)

I'm thinking of buying TENS device from polish site which has those features:
- Allow stimulation from 0 mA to 60 mA
- Allow Hz choice of 2 - 120
- μs which seems to be unchangable set at 250
- Four electrodes at 5cmx5cm size
- Timer option (Auto shutdown ability from 5 - 99 minutes?)
Since i have no rem detection i'm thinking of this pattern:
1. Wake up after 5 - 7 hours of sleep
2. Setup device (40 Hz || 2 mA)
3. Set time of stimulation to 10 - 20 minutes.
4. Fall asleep fast
5. Hope that stimulation will still work when i'il hit rem phase
6. Lucid?

What do you guys think?
Should i invest in it or is it missing some important stuff that i'm not seeing ?

Edit:

It's called also SaneoTENS...

Originally Posted by Highlander

To be fair, Wolf is referring to the figure that Voss, et al used.
"tACS. Low-intensity sinusoidal alternating current (250 μA peak to peak) was applied

That is what Voss used (0,25mA), not the safety limit!
Jeff used 2mA and had better results.
image.jpg
Michael from Lucidscribe has also set his device at 2mA.
Anyway, if the lower amplitude of a device seems irritating enough, the solution is simple: add a resistor (~1kΩ) in series, and choose a comfortable setting (amplitude drops this way).

Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto

What do you guys think?

No. Not good. The device has 2 frequency ranges, 1-20 and 50-100 Hz. 40 Hz is missing!
The method you suggest for using it is not good either. You will probable not be able to sleep with the stimulation on. You have to activate it later - during REM or experimentally at a random time after WBTB. Activation during REM requires a complicated setup. The easy and cheap way is to randomly activate the stimulation with a time delay relay and hope that it hits REM - chances are that it will most of the time after WBTB.

So... I said I had an idea about how to make a DIY tACS device for less than 20€.
I tried it and it didn't work...
Nevertheless, I will share the idea as it leads to another one that will almost certainly work, but is not that cheap and not that easy... nevertheless, it is a possible setup.
The concept was this: I already owned a TENS device with a few presets but not 40hz capability (similar devices can be purchased for 8 -15€). What I would do is this: I would use my iphone app DreamZ to detect REM sleep and play a 40hz audio file (at max volume). The audio signal would be fed to a small motor (I used one from a toy RC helicopter) that would oscillate. I would then create an oscillating relay by attaching wires to the side and the axis of the motor (they would make contact and separate 40 times/sec). All I needed to do then was connect the TENS Device (set to a seemingly continuous mode) through my home-made oscillating relay and a 40hz stimulus would be delivered during REM sleep!

newimage1.jpg

Unfortunately, while the oscillating relay worked just fine (eg when connecting a LED light, it flashed rapidly), when the TENS device was connected, it gave out bursts of non-periodic, irregular stimulations..
I really don't know exactly why, but I suspect that the difference between the stimulation frequency and the relay frequency resulted in the perceived bursts of current.
So, is there a way to use the app and the audio signal to trigger a TENS - EMS device? Yes, there is but to do that:
1. You need a device capable of generating a 40 Hz pulse (more expensive)
2. You need to rectify and amplify the audio signal before feeding it to a relay - and it is not that easy. However it can be done. So you hook up the EMS device to the relay that is fed with the audio signal from the app and there you go.
There are also other ways to do the same thing, eg using the audio signal as a pulse width modulation to activate a Servo (that you modify to act as a relay).
On the other hand, there is the easy - but not so reliable - method of just time-delaying the signal and hoping to hit REM, or perhaps (as suggested by NyxCC) raising awareness during non-REM , and actively initiating the REM state (i.e. a Lucid dream).

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

That is what Voss used (0,25mA), not the safety limit!

I never said it was.

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

The easy and cheap way is to randomly activate the stimulation with a time delay relay and hope that it hits REM - chances are that it will most of the time after WBTB.

I totally understand the idea of doing this where you use the app for REM detection and the relay as an isolating (dc) switch. But...

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Unfortunately, while the oscillating relay worked just fine (eg when connecting a LED light, it flashed rapidly), when the TENS device was connected, it gave out bursts of non-periodic, irregular stimulations..
I really don't know exactly why, but I suspect that the difference between the stimulation frequency and the relay frequency resulted in the perceived bursts of current.

You do not need to make the relay 'oscillate'. It needs to activate and stay 'on' (for your chosen duration.)
Refer to your question 2. which solves the problem.

This duration is the length of the audio track (provided there is no noise) played.
Any audio signal should do for your requirement provided the volume is reasonable to drive the relay circuit.

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

1. You need a device capable of generating a 40 Hz pulse (more expensive)

For a standalone device you could also use a simple 555 timer IC for your pulses with the correct resistor values for 40 hz, or something along the lines of a Wien bridge-type idea using op-amps if you wanted sine wave output.

You can make a 40 hz sine wave (or square wave if you want) mp3 file using Audacity software.
Then process that as an electrical signal in its own right via an appropriate isolation/matching/filter/limiter stage(s) using op-amps, etc. rather than relying on that slave signal to switch a tens machine on and off.

The main problem is not mainly one of expense but to have a reliable and safe design which includes your supply, electrodes, etc.

Originally Posted by Highlander

I never said it was.

I know. Somebody else did.

Originally Posted by Highlander

You do not need to make the relay 'oscillate'. It needs to activate and stay 'on' (for your chosen duration.)
Refer to your question 2. which solves the problem.

I needed the relay to oscillate, in order to get a 40hz signal out of a device that didnt have it. I would want it to stay ON if i had a gamma enabled device (I will in a few days).
When you say my question 2, you mean the answers to this question?

Originally Posted by Highlander

For a standalone device you could also use a simple 555 timer IC for your pulses with the correct resistor values for 40 hz, or something along the lines of a Wien bridge-type idea using op-amps if you wanted sine wave output.

You mean make my own device. I am afraid that my knowledge in electronics is fairly limited. If I need sth and I find a clear and easy circuit diagram, I can assemble it. But improvise with electronics...no.

Originally Posted by Highlander

You can make a 40 hz sine wave (or square wave if you want) mp3 file using Audacity software.
Then process that as an electrical signal in its own right via an appropriate isolation/matching/filter/limiter stage(s) using op-amps, etc. rather than relying on that slave signal to switch a tens machine on and off.

Yep! That was the first thing in my mind! I researched for ways to accomplish this, but when i found this patent, I realized that the complexity of the project was way too high for me...

Originally Posted by Highlander

The main problem is not mainly one of expense but to have a reliable and safe design which includes your supply, electrodes, etc.

Yes, I agree. Safety is a priority, and if you can build a reliable device, that would be great. But I was pretty sure that no harm to a healthy brain could happen with such small currents (provided one has no history of seizures of any kind). So I went for the easiest - and hopefully cheapest - conscept that I could think of.
Anyway, thanks you for your advice and ideas. I really appreciate it!

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

I needed the relay to oscillate, in order to get a 40hz signal out of a device that didnt have it. I would want it to stay ON if i had a gamma enabled device (I will in a few days).

I see now. I got confused when the TENS device was mentioned so I understand where you are coming from now.
I thought you meant switching the supply input to the device initially.

If I'm right then you basically tried to switch or 'chop' the output 'continuous' mode (dc?) signal of your first original Tens device (the one you cannot get 40 hz on very well due to the control settings,) in order to get your final 40 hz pulses.

I think the motor/relay wire contacts would have a reliability issue with all the switching, plus I wonder if the actual motor rotation wire connection switching would be less than 40 hz (?) in that arrangement when you factor in the time of the slight rotations relative to contact made per second.

You might get awoken by motor/relay buzz plus you would need a small (inexpensive) flyback diode across each of the motor/relay inputs to stop voltage spikes which can cause damage.

If you ever intended to switch much higher voltages then a small suppressor capacitor might be needed to reduce RFI to other nearby electronic equipment.

It is an interesting idea however.

You could however use a transistor arrangement to switch a relay which is commonplace. I think we have already touched on this previous.
Transistor switching without a relay is reliable, but then you would definitely have to add in some form of isolation (like opto isolators) to be on the safe side.

For you, it might be better going to a local college, lab, or TV repair place and get them to 'scope the output for 40 hz whilst moving that logarithmic control dial on your original tens device between the other frequency settings.
When you are happy then simply add a mark, or better, some loctite/threadlock so the control doesn't get knocked.
You could also test for output, purity, and any frequency drift too.

Mind you you did say you ordered another one. Even so it is always wise to do calibration checks, etc.

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

I would want it to stay ON if i had a gamma enabled device (I will in a few days).
When you say my question 2, you mean the answers to this question?

Yes, in theory. Do a trial/test on an old phone which plays mp3 files at a similar level before trying on your really expensive i-'whatever' first.
Do not have a mains charging adapter connected to the phone under any circumstances if you do ever decide to do a full 'live' test where you are wired up. Similarly with a laptop. Run them only on batteries to be safer.

Thanks for the patent link - it is quite interesting. I have only had a quick mull over the pdf though.

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Anyway, thanks you for your advice and ideas. I really appreciate it!

No problem. I'm tempted myself!

Be careful as cheapest isn't always the best. Even so there are some expensive gimmicks out there *coughing* so beware, be safe, and good luck!

Originally Posted by Highlander

If I'm right then you basically tried to switch or 'chop' the output 'continuous' mode (dc?) signal of your first original Tens device (the one you cannot get 40 hz on very well due to the control settings,) in order to get your final 40 hz pulses.

Yes. As for the continuous mode...the device does not have a knob. Just 3 presets (one pulsating and two with constant signal - don't know the frequency).

Originally Posted by Highlander

I think the motor/relay wire contacts would have a reliability issue with all the switching, plus I wonder if the actual motor rotation wire connection switching would be less than 40 hz (?) in that arrangement when you factor in the time of the slight rotations relative to contact made per second.

I agree that it is not a reliable system. I hadn't thought of the possibility that the frequency could actually be less than 40hz. I suppose you are right and I should have checked in some lab - didn't do that.

Originally Posted by Highlander

You could however use a transistor arrangement to switch a relay which is commonplace. I think we have already touched on this previous.
Transistor switching without a relay is reliable, but then you would definitely have to add in some form of isolation (like opto isolators) to be on the safe side.

I hadn't thought of that either - using a transistor as an oscilating relay (but I suppose that this setup would not deliver a 40hz current either). The interesting use of a tranzistor however, is to activate a relay that will stay ON (and trigger a 40hz enabled EMS or TENS) and basically this is the easy way for anyone that wants to make a fully functional DIY tACS device. So the setup goes like this:
image.jpg
Similar configurations can also be made with other (and more accurate) REM detection hardware like the REM dreamer or the Aurora.
On the other hand, there is also the kind of setup that Jeff used, utilizing a PC, an arduino board and an overall more sophisticated - and accurate - setup!
One question for Highlander (or anyone that can help): my plan for now, is to just activate the device using a time delay relay (Cycle Timer Module PLC) after some set time :
image.jpg
Do I need to use a flyback diode to prevent a current spike at activation? If so, can you please tell me if any diode will do and how to connect it?
Also, is there a possibility to use some kind of solid state time delay relay, so to be silent (no click)?

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Do I need to use a flyback diode to prevent a current spike at activation? If so, can you please tell me if any diode will do and how to connect it?

Component D2 in your schematic is an example of a 'flyback' diode. It is usually only a consideration if you are building a circuit from scratch, as a modular relay board manufacturer would have already considered this along with other features normally.

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Also, is there a possibility to use some kind of solid state time delay relay, so to be silent (no click)?

The 'click'... epoch (in seconds)... 'unclick' shouldn't cause a noise issue or problem. I only mentioned it previously as I think your previous circuit caused motor and relay 'buzz' due to the fast switching which could have woken you up.

I notice from your diagrams that you are actually switching the output of the TENS device which raises major safety issues:

There is still a live AC signal (40 hz) going to the other electrode unless that is the reference?

Also relays have been known to 'stick' in some cases as they are mechanical; depending on other factors like higher voltage, current, etc.
Over time you would also get oxidization on the contacts which would cause signal noise, or at worst intermittent connection to the electrode circuit.

You would also run the batteries out quicker on your tens device as it would be powered up (on) throughout your sleep period.

I would have thought about using the relay to actually switch on/power up the tens unit itself for your chosen time length by connecting it up on the battery input.

You might want to consider some form of current limiting too.

Originally Posted by Highlander

Component D2 in your schematic is an example of a 'flyback' diode. It is usually only a consideration if you are building a circuit from scratch, as a modular relay board manufacturer would have already considered this along with other features normally.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Highlander

The 'click'... epoch (in seconds)... 'unclick' shouldn't cause a noise issue or problem. I only mentioned it previously as I think your previous circuit caused motor and relay 'buzz' due to the fast switching which could have woken you up.

I have some relays, and the clicking sound is quite noticeable - my motor-relay does also make a buzzing sound but it is not loud. Anyway, I will wait for the time delay relay and we'll see.

Originally Posted by Highlander

I notice from your diagrams that you are actually switching the output of the TENS device which raises major safety issues:

Thanks for the warnings. My current tens device does not hold the setting - if I disconnect the battery, it resets. So, I will wait for the new device. If it holds the settings and continuous the same stimulation (40hz etch), I will do it the way you suggest - it makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by Highlander

There is still a live AC signal (40 hz) going to the other electrode unless that is the reference?

In my current configuration when the circuit is interrupted, the signal is cut in both electrodes - I don't know about the new device, but I hope I will be able to interrupt the battery wires, so no such concern.
Thanks again!

Hi People
Luciding Electronics is sending out devices quite soon (This Tuesday-Thursday?).
We are going to be able to finally hear opinions about devices and see if 40 Hz Stimulation is worth it





And on side note i belive their device is using 1 mA of Stimulation
One of pictures they've uploaded had amperometer which displayed value of 1

Edit:

And to be honest they might be correct about guaranteed lucid dreams
If Dr. Voss. used 0.25mA and results were 77.7% then applying instead 1 mA could give us probably 100% lucid dream chance as long as dream occurs
Jeff himself had though not so 100% yet as he changed electrodes and their position i think he gained better results?
So they might use some tricky position of electric stimulation to attain such success rate perhaps.

Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto

Hi People
Luciding Electronics is sending out devices quite soon (This Tuesday-Thursday?).
We are going to be able to finally hear opinions about devices and see if 40 Hz Stimulation is worth it





And on side note i belive their device is using 1 mA of Stimulation
One of pictures they've uploaded had amperometer which displayed value of 1

Edit:

And to be honest they might be correct about guaranteed lucid dreams
If Dr. Voss. used 0.25mA and results were 77.7% then applying instead 1 mA could give us probably 100% lucid dream chance as long as dream occurs
Jeff himself had though not so 100% yet as he changed electrodes and their position i think he gained better results?
So they might use some tricky position of electric stimulation to attain such success rate perhaps.

I'll reserve judgement until some real world results come in showing consistent (over time, months at least) results. Everyone familiar with LDing knows and has perhaps even experienced The excitement placebo LDs from trying something new. It's nice to see that they have real devices, though, at least. Guaranteed lucid dreams? As a service? So much so questionable about that. And with the haste with which thoses initial devices were put together, I wouldn't want those electrodes anywhere near my head. This field is clearly in its infancy, but it's good to see the activity.

Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto

And on side note i belive their device is using 1 mA of Stimulation
One of pictures they've uploaded had amperometer which displayed value of 1

1 what?

The multimeter shown in the photo is on 'continuity' mode which is for checking short circuits and diode polarity checks.

There is no setting on the dial for alternating (AC) current, only DC which is in the 3 'o' clock position.

It is not reading current, whether AC or DC.

Hi all im Petr Navratil
Im also one of winners of luciding contest and post results of testing when device arrives.

Cheapest way how to bulit tACS is use old Pc speaker like this and use MP3player or better smartphone witch REM detection as source of audio signal .
Changes to the spekere are easily done and donot require nay knowledge of electronics.
Open the case of speaker
And find trensformer
This part transform voltage usualy transform 230V to 9V so about 25x lower it.Power device connceted to head form net is dangerous so we chnge this part for 9V battery as a source.
Now find the wires to the speker ond disconct it rom speker and connect it to the wellow (thinner ones) wires of diconected tranformator , to the other side of trenaformator connect wires to stimulation electrodes (thicker red ones) Tranfromtor in the output of amylifiler is connect in rverse so it increse a voltage witch factor about 25x max output voltage of my device is about 35V and can give max current about 1,5mA with load similar to electriodes and head resistance.

THIS DEVICE NOT HAVE ANY SAFETY MEASURES AND CURRENT IS NOT CONSTANT its vary dou the head resitance changes

NEVER TURN ON or OFF AMPYFILER WHEN DEVICE IS CONECTED TO HEAD - capacitor on turn on/off cause current spike

TEST the current and idealy also signal ( not use more than 3/4 of volume in amplyfiler more dstort the quality of signal )

IF needet use resistor to limit max current , with my type of electrodes is not needet in worst case scenario is max current still safe .

Tape or hotglue the volume on amplyfiler to prevent acidently changing it .

(i cant post pictures now so i deleted it form post)

Some of my notes about tDCS brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/tdcs also usable for tACS
some reserch pappers about LD brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/ld2
add www

Hei there,

foc.us published their new tCDS Device for preorder a day ago.
The system consists of a headset with two tCDS-Electrodes (99$) and the device emitting the DC (199$). The electrode-headset seems to be a good choice when connected to a tACS Device just like jeff used. According to the site "DIY hackers can find information on the 2.5mm 4 pin wiring scheme in a separate faq [soon probably]". Aside from that, the tDCS device has an open API - that means, that with a proper App and enough money, you could actually buy a commercial DC-Induced Lding System (combined with one of those simple EEGs, such as the muse) already.
Anyways: jeff, michael, how are you doing so far with your DIY tACS/EEG devices? Is there any chance, you could provide us with a detailed DIY-manual?

Regards
Marius

Is too early pick heatset because noone realy knows best electrode configuration and electrode size for LD induction its may take years of testing to find the best one. I prfer more variability allow expedimneting. Also i have bad experinece witch foc.us i when they strating developing first version i write with them about some posible problems and they ingore them.

Also with tACS is posiible use TENS type adhesive electrodes or even EKG adhesive electrodes ( only for advanced users becouse current density si much higher and it need so knowledge to setup it right)
for haireless areas
tDCS witch this type of electrodes cause problem becouse of elctrosisis.

Originally Posted by mariblubb

Hei there,

foc.us published their new tCDS Device for preorder a day ago.
The system consists of a headset with two tCDS-Electrodes (99$) and the device emitting the DC (199$). The electrode-headset seems to be a good choice when connected to a tACS Device just like jeff used. According to the site "DIY hackers can find information on the 2.5mm 4 pin wiring scheme in a separate faq [soon probably]". Aside from that, the tDCS device has an open API - that means, that with a proper App and enough money, you could actually buy a commercial DC-Induced Lding System (combined with one of those simple EEGs, such as the muse) already.
Anyways: jeff, michael, how are you doing so far with your DIY tACS/EEG devices? Is there any chance, you could provide us with a detailed DIY-manual?

Regards
Marius

I'd suggest not to use foc.us devices unless you know what you are doing
People from tDCS Reddit Community warned about foc.us tDCS due to safety issues
- The device behaves unpredictably when its connection to the head is lost
- The foc.us internal electrodes exceed the general safety guidelines for current density at all stimulation levels, a problem which may lead to skin burns
- One guy seems to report passing out due to the device

So I was the idiot who turned the Focus on before putting it on his head instead of after (and then passing out) but at least we all got a very nice report out of it.

I myself on the other hand plan to modify Luciding device and in result unrestricting it...

In next few days i plan do some basic test of my "device" mesure max output current and voltage , test qulity of signal in osciloscope and do basic test of electrodes.
For basic plan use bilateral fronto-temporal configuration F3-T9 ,F4-T10 (temporal position will be in front of ear below the hairline so it not exactly T9)
Stimulation will have one chnnel source so joinet F3 - F4 ,T9 - T10 wires. Problay try also only F3 - F4 fronto-frontal configuration.

goal is find phosphens treashold , skin feealing treashold , and good currentdenisty treashold for stimulatoin.
Stimulation currentdensity will be probaly best around 60uA/cm2 but need this test. Is higher than in the study 18uA/cm2 witch seems to me to low but is hard to extrapolate to my size of electrodes they stimulate much larger area witch may be better (hrad to say before many tests).

Becouse wires are joined it must be consideret scenario when all current go trhoug only one of electrode so 120uA/cm2 must be safe without phosphenes and any fealing ( in tACS is posiible use even 300uA/cm2 without any problem)

stimulatin will be 40hz sinus ( 5min + 30s logaritmic ramp up and down ) witch montoring of current changes , and subjectove fealing in and after stimulation ( is only basic during the day in test further test i plan use EEG if will be enough time)

Attachment 7846

To low current of stimulaton donut cause brain to tune to it but higher dount nesesary meen beter it posible that to strong stimulation be forceful nad limit natural minor changes in gamma rythm and can have edverse efect even to lucidity (only hypothesis)

40 Hz AC stimulation is tot only one i have some ideas to better ones like TDCS witch 40hz pulsed peaks but main problem is i dount have a chnace to test all parametrs by myself and have good resuplt it need at least 20 people to get some good results.

electrodes will by DIY 4cm2 circle made from adhesive-Anti-Scratch-Protectors-Pads with Polyimid resistive(conductive) foil (50um , 100 Ohm/cm2 )
I use ten20 EEG conductive gel on skin clened by 70%isoporopyl acohol pads . Electrodes witch gel are enougt adhesive so i dount need a headset thys type of elctrodes can by also used in hair but is is little bit messy after

F3 finder
clinicalresearcher.org/F3/calculate.php
add www

Hi everyone!
I have finally received my new TENS device (with 40hz capability), I have made the simple "audio triggered relay" circuit and my whole setup is ready! Everything works fine now - the audio triggers the TENS - and I am ready to test my setup the following nights and report my results - I can't wait to see if it actually works!
This is the final schematic and actual setup - it was quite easy to build:
image.jpg
image.jpg
Fortunately the device - unlike my other TENS device - holds the presets, so the relay could be connected directly to the battery wires.

Originally Posted by ATA

Cheapest way how to bulit tACS is use old Pc speaker like this and use MP3player or better smartphone witch REM detection as source of audio signal .
Changes to the spekere are easily done and donot require nay knowledge of electronics.

Hi Petr!
Although your English is hard to read, I was very curious if your simple and cheap setup actually produced a stimulation signal - doing what this patend is supposed to do. So, I build it - it was really easy - and yes, it actually worked!
image.jpg
I have tested the stimulation from the device on my forearm and controlled the intensity with the phone volume. It actually felt strange - quite different from the TENS signal. It produced a tingling sensation - plus muscle contractures at high intensity. Nevertheless, it was quite painfull and not comfortable - I wouldn't put this on my head.... I believe a real TENS device is MUCH safer and well worth the price - all you have to do is just keep the intensity low!

Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto

Hi People
Luciding Electronics is sending out devices quite soon (This Tuesday-Thursday?).

Luciding have already failed 4 deadlines and will probably keep failing them...
If however they send them, it will be interesting to see if they actually do anything - from a video they posted, it seems their electrodes are metallic buttons!
image.jpg

Max voltage on full volume ( on PC and on amplyfliler) *PC as source of signal only for testing
Without load (resistor)

40hz 16,7V
1000hz 34,8V
5000hz 40,8V
some music 20-25V

*voltage is different for various frequencis probably due to transformator characteristic

Volume on PC 80% and about 20% on amylifiler to get on osciloscope perfect non distorted sinus signal , voltage 10,3V
This voltage 10,3V is max usable voltage without signal distortion for this 40hz signal. (every ampyfiler is diffrent so values only for orientation if enyone plan built this)
With this volume setup 1000hz give 2,75V, and 5000Hz 5V
*test without load


TEST - 1KOhm load (40Hz signal)
larger signal distortion max without ditortion voltage 2,5V

TEST - 2KOhm load (40Hz signal)
lower signal distortion max without distortion voltage 7V (without load 10,5V)

TEST - 4,5KOhm load (40Hz signal)
lower signal distortion max without ditortion voltage 10V (without load 11,3V)

TEST electrode resistance
without gel about 130Ohm

Now i go test current (test on leg)
TENS act differet because of different signal , the PCspeker version can cause pain and muscle contraction in high volume but for LD aplication the current will be much lower
Also check if your TENS give 40Hz sinus wave not some other type of wave .

Test on leg output set to 10V (without load) for first test

Electrode 4cm2 polyimide with ten20 eeg conductive gel
Current 1,2mA
Current density 300uA/cm2
Fealing slight neadeling pain ,after one min only neadeling without pain
*position of electrode is not ideal and contact with skin is not 100% i change its position for next test

Test Lowering volume to no fealing state
Current 0,6mA
Current density 150uA/cm2
Voltage 7,4V
Voltage without load 8,27V