Thread: Reality As You Know It Does Not Exist

*Gasp*

To think the universe exists because of "us".

Just who is this "us", "you" speak of?

Aren't "we" made of the same indiscernible probablistic quantum foam (subatomic particles) that make up the universe?

Where is the distinction between "us" or "them", "the universe" or "I"?

I'll let you in on a secret...

There is none.

We are the universe observing itself.

The deception of division rears its ugly head.

People act like "Ego" is a set of car keys you can lose.

When "Ego" is just an identifier for one's self.

All this talk of dropping or losing "it" seems silly to my perspective now.

One can never lose one's self because one would still have to remain aware of the loss in order to be lost.

And, if you are still aware you are still in ego.

Ego is now.

Now is forever.

Lol Cyclic, I completely agree with most of what you said, but you misunderstood me on the ego part.

What I mean by ego is emotion/instinct/will. You can pretty much let go of it with just a bit of concentration, and see the world without being subject to will or emotion. FYI, you don't even have the will to breathe.

So much for trying to criticize me, isn't it? You guys must love it.

And finally, awareness is just an illusion anyway.

Trust me when I say...

"I" know what "you" mean.

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIdentifiers of the same subject.

The idea has nothing to do with the "universe existing because of us," as has already been said.

It has everything to do with what Cyclic described, which, again for those in the back, "has nothing to do with the universe existing because of 'us.'"

It is about our interpretation of the universe existing because of 'us,' and likely not being the way things are in actuality.

[Edit]
Oh, and Invader Tech, it seems I overlooked your last post. I'll reply to it after work.[/Edit]

Originally Posted by Kromoh

LOL Cusp, ego-loss is a trance state that you achieve with concentration. Break the concentration and you will be back to normal. But the things you learn while in there remain. Well, not the thing's' you learn, but the thing you learn. You talk about it so abstractedly, means you have no idea what it's about.

I have no idea? Will you seriously listen to yourself? I've been pursuing ego loss for longer than you've been alive. As a matter of fact, it's become my greatest fear. Maybe someday you'll understand why that is.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Kinda bad some people don't even know what 'science' is, for people like Xei to have to explain it all over

I hope you include yourself in that group, as you've shown a poor grasp of every single concept that's been brought up so far. Even the concept of a science sub forum seems to elude you, since you're only arguments stem from this miraculous ego loss you've attained. Those arguments might have worked elsewhere, and there are several threads similar to this one floating around DV. The fact that you chose this, the science sub-forum, to spout your garbage just shows how off the mark you really are.

Lol fear is also a human emotion.

And lol, it's not a miraculous thing. If you say it is, then you do not understand it. I didn't even pay attention to this being in the science subforum or not. I was just stating my views about the topic brought up by the OP. Stop criticizing me for something you do not understand. Also, read what Xei said before you criticize my reply to him. You'd definitely agree with me. Now stop being a bitch just because you dislike people like me.

The uncertainty principle is not meant to be taken as a fundamental truth of our reality. What it really shows is actually only a fundamental flaw in the dualistic subject/object mode in which we perceive the universe. It is not that the motions of particles are necessarily fundamentally uncertain, but that our knowledge of them is limited to merely the way they interact, and it impossible to extricate the observer, and therefore the observer's effects from the observation being made. We are incapable of perceiving a thing as it really is, and are limited to perceiving relationships between the thing and ourselves, and so the fundamental nature of the thing must remain a mystery to us.

I'm not so sure about that. The Copenhagen interpretation says pretty much this, and it's the most popular view of quantum mechanics. I think there have actually been some formal disproofs of 'hidden variable theories', too...

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Now stop being a bitch just because you dislike people like me.

Kromoh, I didn't say anything about this, before - because 1) You were arguing with me, and I didn't want people to start crying about how I'm "abusing" my mod powers vindictively, and 2) because my skin is tough enough to not care about how pompous you are in your responses to me directly - but since it seems to be your M.O. in general, now, I'm going to bring it up:

You're no different than anybody else at DV, in the respect that you need to learn to carry yourself much better than you've been doing in this thread. Every five seconds, you're resorting to personal attacks and obscene insults - instead of simply stating your opinion with the least bit of maturity.

Grow up, and learn to state your opinion without being so abrasive in doing so. It doesn't help your position at all, and believe me, it's gaining you a lot of attention that you probably don't want. This isn't an official warning (yet) - otherwise I would have PM'd you with an official warning - so take this instance simply as advice. Tone it down.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Because consciousness does not exist lol, only the illusion of it.

There's no absolute way to prove this. Consciousness can't be directly measured, it isn't a single thing, so you can't prove or disprove its existence. It appears to me that consciousness than an abstract term used to describe the machine-like behavior of the brains of animals, perceiving the physical universe and creating a hologram within their own mind. Even though it isn't a single unit or atom in the end, the end result of the mental/physical processes in the conscious creature is the creature being what it is: conscious. Because you are not a part of the creature's body, you can't possibly perceive their consciousness, so you can observe it any way you want and call so-called "consciousness" an illusion of your own personal creation.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

It is just so stupidly arrogant to think the universe exists because of us.

I didn't imply the universe exists because of us. I said that the universe may just hypothetically be a floating sea of infinite energy that is affected by conscious beings within it, in ways such as giving it form, laws, time, etc.

Not the creators, but the molders of creation.

I think it's premature to say that consciousness leaves no physical traces.

I certainly think it is a real thing; I tend to define it as 'the difference between us and philosophical zombies', or 'the difference between us and collections of biological compounds changing over time'.

But yes, scientific study of consciousness hasn't made much progress yet. It may one day be found to be a perfectly well defined quality of a particular system.

And think about this; this very discussion is a physical effect of consciousness. If we weren't conscious, we couldn't possibly be discussing something we didn't know existed. So, consciousness has physical effects in the same way that physical objects cause consciousness. Dualism is, I believe, incorrect.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Because consciousness does not exist lol, only the illusion of it.

It is just so stupidly arrogant to think the universe exists because of us.

How can you say that without knowing what consciousness is? Whatever it is that you believe is merely the illusion of consciousness, is consciousness itself. Perhaps you have illusions about what it is supposed to be, but that is about it.

No self respecting scientist is claiming that the universe exists because of us, and I don't think anyone in this thread is either, although perhaps some are. What is being claimed is that the Universe we perceive is created by us. There is a very profound difference here. What it boils down to is that we just don't know anything at all about the Universe outside of the aspect of it that we create through our perceptions, and therefore cannot make comment on what might be really there.

Originally Posted by Xei

I'm not so sure about that. The Copenhagen interpretation says pretty much this, and it's the most popular view of quantum mechanics. I think there have actually been some formal disproofs of 'hidden variable theories', too...

The Copenhagen interpretation does not say that uncertainty is intrinsic to reality. The basic principles suggested by the copenhagen interpretation is that our description of nature is probabilistic, not that nature itself is probabilistic, and that it is impossible to know all values in a system, not that they don't exist. I think you'll find that good scientists, especially those who are brave enough to venture into the realm of quantum physics, try as hard as possible to not say anything at all about the true nature of reality, but rather speak only about the ways in which we see it, or can see it.

A good source to read more about it is HERE, at the website for stanford university. Be sure to read section 5, 5. Misunderstandings of complementarity, as it directly addresses what we are talking about.

I think where we might be misunderstanding each other, also, is that I don't believe that the problem is merely a failing on our part and that we will eventually be able to measure both the speed and direction of a particle, or view it as both a wave and a particle at the same time. The uncertainty principle is intrinsic to our perception or our view of reality. All I'm saying is that our view of reality is all we are talking about, and not some unknowable objective reality as a whole.

What I mean by consciousness being an illusion is that consciousness isn't something magical, or something that changes reality in any way. Consciousness is just a biological tool which makes human beings more adaptable. It's ridiculous of human beings to think human beings are special because they are self-conscious. Consciousness doesn't break any laws of physics. We think of ourselves as one cohesive entity, but we are just a bunch of reactive matter, like the rest of the universe. That's what I mean when I say consciousness is an illusion.

Try to understand me before you criticize me next time.

How does consciousness help a species survive?

Thanks for the link Xaq, I'll read it.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

What I mean by consciousness being an illusion is that consciousness isn't something magical, or something that changes reality in any way. Consciousness is just a biological tool which makes human beings more adaptable. It's ridiculous of human beings to think human beings are special because they are self-conscious. Consciousness doesn't break any laws of physics. We think of ourselves as one cohesive entity, but we are just a bunch of reactive matter, like the rest of the universe. That's what I mean when I say consciousness is an illusion.

Try to understand me before you criticize me next time.

Read the second half of my response to you. Try to read before you resort to your signature abrasiveness next time.

Originally Posted by Cyclic13

Aren't "we" made of the same indiscernible probablistic quantum foam (subatomic particles) that make up the universe?

Quantum foam =/= subatomic particles. We are not made of quantum foam.

I actually had no problems with that part, so maybe that is the reason why I didn't refute it, don't you think? I reply to abrasiveness with abrasiveness. Your criticizing me was no milk&sugar you know.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I actually had no problems with that part, so maybe that is the reason why I didn't refute it, don't you think? I reply to abrasiveness with abrasiveness. Your criticizing me was no milk&sugar you know.

I'm sorry you have such a problem with being criticized that you have to adopt such an angry tone to respond to it. What exactly offended you about the post in question? My post was meant to be one unit. Trying to refute the first part but not responding to the second just ignores how the second pertains to the first. I answered your response before you even posted, with the second half of my original post.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

How can you say that without knowing what consciousness is?

This was what offended me.

-

Well, two things on the other matter.
1) The second paragraph had nothing to do with the first one;
2) So you want me to refute something I actually agree with? Are you serious lol

So consciousness doesn't actually help a species survive?

LOL consciousness is an extension of intelligence. Being self-conscious allows a being to more intelligently choose things for itself (as in, things that will benefit them). Furthermore, consciousness helps in recognizing patterns, learning and being able to predict scenarios. Only conscious beings can enjoy music, you know.

Stop putting words on my mouth, EVERYONE. Oneironaut, Xei, The Cusp, Universal Mind, Cyclic... I can't believe I'me even wasting my time with people like you xD

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Quantum foam =/= subatomic particles. We are not made of quantum foam.

Technically, at the level of time of 10 to the power of -43, Planck time, the subatomic particles collapse into probabilistic waves which the quantum foam allows particles and energy to briefly come into existence, and then annihilate, without violating conservation laws.

Therefore, they do equal each other. There simply is no separation between the medium and the resulting particles.

The potentiality and resulting particles housed in the quantum foam is the foam.

And yes, we are also made of the same sub atomic particles as everything else...

"We" all come from the same source. "We" are the source.

The sorcerer of all sources.

"It must be somewhat above this level that our consciousness works, weaving probability waves into patterns and incarnating them in the receptive structure of our brains. Our being or spirit lives in this Quantum Foam, which is thus the Eternal Now, infinite in extent and a plenum of all possibilities. The patterns of everything that has been, that is now, and will come to be, exists latent in this quantum foam. Perhaps this is the realm though which the mystics stepped into timelessness, the eternal present, and sensed the omnipotence and omniscience of the spirit."

from Quantum Consciousness
Adam McLean

If i put words in your mouth you might spit them out because they don't taste good.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

If i put words in your mouth you might spit them out because they don't taste good.

xD I LMAO

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Oh, and Invader Tech, it seems I overlooked your last post. I'll reply to it after work.

Looking forward to it.

Originally Posted by Invader Tech

You read my mind.

Anyone's guess is as good as mine, but that's generally where my mind is in terms of what we are with respect to reality. You used the multiple personalities example, so I'll ask that you consider another example I like to use often, which is that of a dream. A dream operates as it's own reality. It has it's own particular set of rules and vividness that you can actively control if you are aware of them. The dream characters inside are no more than an expression of yourself, your own mind, all divided and spread out into different people/things. Given enough time, these dream characters would soon come to theorize that the dream world they exist within is just an illusion (as well you know it is), and some will go so far as to suggest that they are a part of the same mind (which is collectively your mind).

With respect to dreams, the only thing that exists in actuality is consciousness (and perhaps the brain, which intelligently processes the information). All of the 'reality' that becomes the dream comes as a result of your consciousness. The real world that both you and I experience day to day is analogous to the dreamworld in the way I just described. Nothing more than a convincing illusion that we use to interact with each other ("a collective consciousness experiencing itself"). I'm sure this probably sounds outlandish to a great deal of people, but if you'd like me to clarify my point of view on this, I'd be happy to do so.

As for the origin? Who knows? Existence by itself appears to be a sort of paradox on its own, but here we are. The existence we experience implies that there be some source or point of entry, and I wouldn't be surprised if that 'source' was the consciousness we are all theoretically a part of.

I agree with that to every extent. If the one intial consciousness (which I've referred to before as Singular Consciousness - the universe's awareness of itself, on a fundamental level, before being broken down into the consciousnesses we've experienced as "individuals") is the byproduct that emerges from the supposed system of waves that we might surmise to be the true nature of the universe, then it would make perfect sense on so many levels. I agree with you on the "dream reality" aspect, and how our 'individual' consciousnesses are probably no more than a singular consciousness believing itself to be more than one.

The question though, is whether or not the consciousness(es) inside of that singular system could ever become aware of the reality outside of that level of perception? I mean, like with lucid dreaming: We are only aware that a dream is just a dream because we experience real life, and we can compare and contrast the two. But could those dream characters (or, in the case of this scenario: us) be expected to ever realize the reality that might lie outside of our frame of reference? We simply have nothing to compare and contrast the idea to. I do like the fact that we are trying to find out, though, and we are breaking into ground that is akin to a dream character realizing the inconsistency of dream content, and beginning to realize that there may be an absolution that lies outside of the "dream world."

Though we may never understand the "true" nature of the universe, the truths we uncover while searching for it are no less astonishing/important.