Can't get back to sleep with WBTB

**Wulfricr** · 09-22-2013 08:11 AM

Hello everyone, first post on this forum.

I've recently started to try attaining my first lucid dream through WBTB but almost everywhere all I can read is that the longer you stay awake for, the higher chance of a lucid dream (up to about 50 minutes?) but I've found that even if I stay awake for 30 minutes it's just too long and I become too alert becoming unable to fall back asleep, just spent over an hour laying in bed last night after my alarm went off after six hours and I just could not make it happen.

I've heard that there was a study of some sort showing that the longer time you are awake for the higher chance of a LD but is this definitive or is it different for each person? It would be annoying knowing that I would have to shorten the time I am awake for after waking up from the initial sleeping period having a lesser chance of having a LD than if I were able to still get to sleep after 40-50 minutes.

I think the following night I might try 20 minutes but I get the feeling that will still be too much for me to handle.

**VagalTone** · 09-22-2013 12:47 PM

Welcome to Dream Views !

Congratulations for choosing to practice WBTB. If mastered and coupled with intention, it is enough to LD on a very regular basis.

There are very good tutorials and tips on WBTB. I hope you have checked them because there´s not much more to add.

I think only you can find why you can´t fall asleep

you know yourself better than we do, right ? The most important factors are timing ( most important one ? ), the time you stay awake ( i have succeeded after 4 hours... ), what you do while on WBTB . These factors interact with each other in a very personal and, not always predictable, way. So, i would say it is normal to get insomnia from time to time

But that´s worth the effort i guess

Another tips: you can practice meditation or relaxation on your WBTB, it may help. Also, i don´t like to eat ( water is fine ) because i find it always makes me more hungry later, and force me to wake up.

Most importantly, understand that WBTB needs some experimentation.

Good luck !

**Wulfricr** · 09-22-2013 01:03 PM

Thanks for the reply!

It certainly does look like I need to experiment with the time I will stay awake for, I'm not really doing all that much when awake, I just empty my bladder and drink some water or chamomile tea, no computer or phone use etc. If I manage to find the longest amount of time I can stay up for while still being able to get back to sleep I think I'll be well on my way.

Would I be correct in saying that the most ideal time is personal in the way that you have to find the time where you are most conscious but still able to fall asleep?

**VagalTone** · 09-22-2013 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Wulfricr

Thanks for the reply!

It certainly does look like I need to experiment with the time I will stay awake for, I'm not really doing all that much when awake, I just empty my bladder and drink some water or chamomile tea, no computer or phone use etc. If I manage to find the longest amount of time I can stay up for while still being able to get back to sleep I think I'll be well on my way.

Would I be correct in saying that the most ideal time is personal in the way that you have to find the time where you are most conscious but still able to fall asleep?

You are correct, but i think after some minutes you are fully conscious. The lenght of the WBTB is important, but there are probably many reasons ( intention is probably the first, because it really requires willpower to wake up and stay awake and resist the urge to return; also, with long WBTB's you can have some rebound effect)

It´s more important to find the ideal time according to your usual REM periods. This is crucial, you want to enter REM as fast as possible.

**Wulfricr** · 09-23-2013 10:18 AM

Easier said than done!

. Sometimes I find myself waking up before the six hour alarm and it messes up the timing of everything I've planned, I think I should cut out drinking water when I first originally go to bed.

**Kruse** · 09-23-2013 08:49 PM

Another thing to try is maybe set the alarm for even earlier. I've had fairly good success with sleeping for just 4 hours, being awake for 2½-3 hours and then going back to bed. It really is different for everyone though, so like Vagal said, the best thing to do is experiment.

**VagalTone** · 09-24-2013 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Kruse

Another thing to try is maybe set the alarm for even earlier. I've had fairly good success with sleeping for just 4 hours, being awake for 2½-3 hours and then going back to bed. It really is different for everyone though, so like Vagal said, the best thing to do is experiment.

Interesting ! I usually do the same schedule, when i can. You know, this is very close to byphasic sleep that was long ago our cultural sleeping schedule. And guess what ? Yes, a lot more interesting dreams

@Wulfricr: I think i would have some difficulty with 6 hours of sleep, but many people don´t. Try less time each day and you will find the best timing.

**Wulfricr** · 09-25-2013 10:20 AM

Just for a little update, both previous nights resulted in me recalling a couple of short non-lucid dreams. I suspect it will take a month or two to have my first lucid dream

. So far it seems I recall a lot more dreams in the actual morning around 8-9am as opposed to around 4-5am during the WBTB.

**eriknotengem** · 12-17-2013 10:40 AM

hello all,

i have kinda same problem.
normally when i wake up for a wbtb i don't feeling tierd at all...
but now i know my rem-periods, so i can wake myself up in the middle of one.
i stay up for 20 minutes, read stuff, motivate myself,...
but when i go back to bed, i just can't fall asleep. not because i'm not tierd
but because i can't stop 'watching' my thoughts. they are really vivid and dreamlike, and i think they keep me awake.
i tried stop drop n roll over and ignoring my urges, but it just doesn't work. really frustrating....

hope you guys can help me too
(sorry for my english-dutch :/ )
thx, Erik

**gab** · 12-17-2013 07:06 PM

Best thing to do is to go by how you feel. If you feel alert and you can think clearly after just few minutes, there is no need to stay up any longer. This time may vary even for you on different nights. The goal is to wake up enough, but still stay sleepy to fall asleep relatively fast. I personally do morning naps 1-4 hrs after waking up in the morning.

When you wake up, keep telling yourself, that you are going back to sleep. This will help your body to realize, that it should not wake up "for the day". Otherwise it may think you want to wake up completely.

During WBTB, best thing to do is something LDing related. Read your dream journal, a tutorial, think about what you want to do in a lucid. Say a few mantras and do some RCs.

Happy dreams

Originally Posted by eriknotengem

...
i stay up for 20 minutes, read stuff, motivate myself,...
but when i go back to bed, i just can't fall asleep. not because i'm not tierd
but because i can't stop 'watching' my thoughts. they are really vivid and dreamlike, and i think they keep me awake.

i tried stop drop n roll over and ignoring my urges, but it just doesn't work. really frustrating....

Seeing your thoughts is not a bad thing. That's how dreaming process starts. Just observe them passively. Don't get excited by them and don't try to control them. Just watch them. You can try repeating a mantra. Something like "Next time I'm dreaming, I realize I'm dreaming'. Mantras help to push other thought out of our minds by filling it with only one thought.

Don't worry about stop drop and roll over. You don't have to do that. And don't ignore your urges. That is very distracting and that can keep you awake. If you need to swallow or move or scratch, do it. Your goal is to fall asleep. So just fall asleep as you would normally, with moving and scratching and all.

**Joram** · 12-17-2013 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Wulfricr

Would I be correct in saying that the most ideal time is personal in the way that you have to find the time where you are most conscious but still able to fall asleep?

Yup. When i just started WBTB, i always did it with a length of 30 or more minutes, but only resulting in insomnia. I thought i was the problem and i had to change. I was wrong. After a lot of sleepless tries, i knew that this wasn't going to work. I skipped WBTB. I then only set my alarm, wake up, and immediately try WBTB. Results were bad aswell. Fell asleep to quick night after night. From here i started to experiment with some WBTB's. I now have found my perfect WBTB-time. It's only 2 minutes. Just a quick stand up, doing some think work, and then go back to bed. I will be enough conscious, but still very sleepy. It's easy to drift back to sleep and WILD.

**eriknotengem** · 12-17-2013 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by gab

Best thing to do is to go by how you feel. If you feel alert and you can think clearly after just few minutes, there is no need to stay up any longer. This time may vary even for you on different nights. The goal is to wake up enough, but still stay sleepy to fall asleep relatively fast. I personally do morning naps 1-4 hrs after waking up in the morning.

When you wake up, keep telling yourself, that you are going back to sleep. This will help your body to realize, that it should not wake up "for the day". Otherwise it may think you want to wake up completely.

During WBTB, best thing to do is something LDing related. Read your dream journal, a tutorial, think about what you want to do in a lucid. Say a few mantras and do some RCs.

Happy dreams

Seeing your thoughts is not a bad thing. That's how dreaming process starts. Just observe them passively. Don't get excited by them and don't try to control them. Just watch them. You can try repeating a mantra. Something like "Next time I'm dreaming, I realize I'm dreaming'. Mantras help to push other thought out of our minds by filling it with only one thought.

Don't worry about stop drop and roll over. You don't have to do that. And don't ignore your urges. That is very distracting and that can keep you awake. If you need to swallow or move or scratch, do it. Your goal is to fall asleep. So just fall asleep as you would normally, with moving and scratching and all.

well thank you!!

lots of intresting tips

goodnight.