Thread: Could dream recall be counter-productive?

I always wondered the exact same thing. I read somewhere on a lucidity website that recall helps you become more aware in your dreams and that you get to know them better (can't fully remember but I think that was it). But then I thought, "how would recalling what happened help me to become lucid in general?" I think recall just makes you more aware of your dreams than anything else.

One of my least favorite experiences was waking up all excited thinking "I did it! I had a lucid dream!" Only to realize that I could not recall it at all. And then I did not know whether I actually had a lucid dream or not. Very frustrating. So based on that I would say that dream recall is very important.

Not a bad idea at all. It's always worth questioning thing, most certainly those that are not getting questioned enough.

In this case I do wonder. How do you suppose one would do something that "continues on with the dream" ? If you can't remember your dreams how do you act accordingly? Also, as JoannaB said, what if you forget your lucid dreams? Let me add to that: You also remember your dreams, so that you can identify dream signs, get a feeling of what a dream is like and of course just because it is fun.

I would say no, dream recall is hella important! Though by all means, prove me wrong

Originally Posted by Bobblehat

The thing that makes me wonder about dream recall is, it concentrates on the past

That's why the better way of writing down your dreams is in present tense. You re-live your dreams in your head, on the moment, as you write them down.
I can say with certainty that after losing a few really long and vivid LDs, dream recall is extremely important, there's no questioning that from me.

Can you really totally forget that you had a lucid dream/became lucid?
Haven't had a lucid dream in 2 weeks now, didn't put much effort in it lately, so my recall is kinda bad.
But is it possible having a lucid dream and totally forget?

Originally Posted by virusje

Can you really totally forget that you had a lucid dream/became lucid?
Haven't had a lucid dream in 2 weeks now, didn't put much effort in it lately, so my recall is kinda bad.
But is it possible having a lucid dream and totally forget?

I'd say yes. At least chunks of it and details. Sometimes, when I'm lucky enough to have a really long lucid dream, I'll end up waking myself on purpose, so I don't forget everything I did. Even then it usually takes a few minutes of remember all of it.

And sometimes after I wake I'm pretty sure I had a lucid dream, but I can't remember anything about it.

Originally Posted by insideout

I'd say yes. At least chunks of it and details. Sometimes, when I'm lucky enough to have a really long lucid dream, I'll end up waking myself on purpose, so I don't forget everything I did. Even then it usually takes a few minutes of remember all of it.

And sometimes after I wake I'm pretty sure I had a lucid dream, but I can't remember anything about it.

Yeah I do agree with that.
Most times I do forget details and how beautiful it all was, lol.

But what I mean is, can you actually forget you had a lucid dream?
So not forgetting details and parts of the dream, but totally forget you became lucid?

Originally Posted by virusje

So not forgetting details and parts of the dream, but totally forget you became lucid?

Why not? It sometimes happens to not remember any dream at all, and knowing that we dream every night, we obviously forgot the dreams completely. Lucid dreams are still dreams, they are more special but it doesn't mean they can't be completely forgotten like any normal dream.

Originally Posted by virusje

Yeah I do agree with that.
Most times I do forget details and how beautiful it all was, lol.

But what I mean is, can you actually forget you had a lucid dream?
So not forgetting details and parts of the dream, but totally forget you became lucid?

Probably. But it's hard to know for sure, because you wouldn't know if you did.

I have non-lucid dreams pop into my head either during meditation or when I'm going to sleep at night. It happens quite a bit. On a couple of occasions I've had dreams pop into my head and I've thought to myself, "Hang on a minute! I'm behaving like I'm lucid in that dream"

Originally Posted by MrPriority

It's always worth questioning thing, most certainly those that are not getting questioned enough.

That's the mentality exactly. Question everything. Even if it's just for the sake of questioning things. Can lead to breakthroughs. Usually not, but sometimes.

I think the longer you go on in LD practice the more likely it is that you might forget LDs. For one thing, they're not as shocking or super-exhilarating as when you're just getting started, so a more experienced LDer is much more likely not to wake up from a dream while lucid: you can have FAs, or keep on dreaming non-lucidly. For my first 30 or so LDs I always woke up from them while lucid, with the memory of the experience no different than if I had been awake the whole time. I couldn't imagine how you could forget a LD! Then I had multiple LDs over multiple sleep cycles without always waking up in between, and started losing lucidity and continuing on instead of just waking up, and the memory of those LDs are definitely more shaky than the memory of the ones you wake up from directly.

On the original subject, I think having really good recall is essential for advancing in LDing ability. I don't know exactly why, but something about the process of remembering more and more of your dreams brings you "closer" to the present moment of actually experiencing them. More and more, I find that I feel like I experience dreams twice: once as I experience it while it happens, and once more as a memory after I wake up. Something about the better recall makes the actual while-it's-happening experience more vivid.

Having a firm memory of the experience and feel for a dream aids immensely in becoming subsequently lucid.

And, in between lucids, having great recall keeps you motivated! So yeah, I think continuing to exercise and build recall is essential.

I find that dream memories come to me in two ways. Do others find this? The first is where I wake up and the dream is in my mind. You could say it's like the waking process is another part of the dream. The second is where I wake up, I know I'm awake and for a few seconds I think there hasn't been a dream and then suddenly I get a flood of memories of the dream. I often think, "Oh yes! I remember that happening now! How could I forget?"

Interesting thoughts. I think the practice of dream recall builds both retrospective and prospective memory. So yes, it is partially backward-looking (retrospective). But there's an equally important forward-looking part, which is cultivating the intention to remember before going to bed (prospective).

I have noticed that the more I recall dreams, the more "present" I am in all my dreams. It is really only in this "present" that you can get a good lucid. I usually wake up after a dream because of how present I am in it, so I am not waking up and trying to remember a dream, I am just writing down where I just was.

Yes, forgetting lucids happens to us all. Either, as fryingman said, losing lucidity, or forgetting to write anything down when you wake. You can sometimes be walking about your day and wham! You remember a lucid.

Originally Posted by Bobblehat

I find that dream memories come to me in two ways. Do others find this? The first is where I wake up and the dream is in my mind. You could say it's like the waking process is another part of the dream. The second is where I wake up, I know I'm awake and for a few seconds I think there hasn't been a dream and then suddenly I get a flood of memories of the dream. I often think, "Oh yes! I remember that happening now! How could I forget?"

Yes. I experience the 2nd most often, unless I'm close to lucidity or lucid while waking up where I experience the first.

Originally Posted by virusje

Can you really totally forget that you had a lucid dream/became lucid?
Haven't had a lucid dream in 2 weeks now, didn't put much effort in it lately, so my recall is kinda bad.
But is it possible having a lucid dream and totally forget?

Yes, I personally experienced that a couple years ago - I was sure that I had not had a lucid dream at all that night, but then I randomly started listening to the music in this video (it is a pretty eerie melody, but also very dreamy and beautiful), and the scenes in the video suddenly made me realize "hey, I did have a lucid dream where I flew over buildings!".
Sometimes you are lucky enough to get those "reminders" in waking life that make you suddenly remember a lucid dream.

It's just like forgetting awesome things from waking life - you may enjoy something a lot while it's happening, but then forget about it a couple years later.
It's the same with lucid dreams - you might enjoy them and be aware of them while they last, but then have no memory of them when you wake up, since it might be too faint, or the lucid dream could have possibly been sandwiched between NREM periods, which of course makes it even harder to remember it.

I dont think it is bad if you do it properly. You could fix that fear by doing a reality before actually getting lost into recalling memories. I have taken mindfull approach to each recall or conclusion i make. Each time i start to recall something i aknowleadge it consciously that im going to recall memories. The thing is that there are no present, past or future there is just now and memories. When you are recalling memories you are simply shifting you attention into recalling those memories which makes you less aware of everything else.

Originally Posted by Seltiez

I dont think it is bad if you do it properly.

I think there is potential for some experimentation regarding recall. Will it lead anywhere? Probably not, but I think - from my own perspective, anyway - that's it worth challenging my "wake up and remember as much about the dream as you can" model. I've got some ideas about this I will post later, but I've got to rush off now.

You can forget LD but is less probable tan in normal dream.

Dream reacll is very important but hard to desribe why porbably increase accesing of memory sytems and its activation in dreams , one of main parts is intention to remember dreams its increase importance of memory from them memory is also likked to lucidity increse of memory of dream can also mean some imporvement of lucidity.

I have one hypothesis still not testet. We do not forget dreams but is more like lost links to the database. Dream have different temporo-spatail coordinates (place and time) than normal reality whn we remember somthing we use tags. like place or time but dream memory is not linked to normal one . You need at least small peace of episodic memory form dream to found reast or some semantic trigger .
There are amny unknows like how precize is memory form dream , how long last ,where is in the brain , how is code tempotospatial coordinates...

Good ide is dream map or creating dream word with some rules like shamani travel if you know spatil relation within a dream you can search memory by them.

Next idea is tag. dream by some way give them id or tr to link information of actual time to them ,find some way how to link them to noram memory for easi acces .

Originally Posted by ATA

Next idea is tag. dream by some way give them id or tr to link information of actual time to them ,find some way how to link them to noram memory for easi acces .

Can you say a bit more about that, please ATA?

"link information of actual time to them"

What do you mean about that bit? Do you mean that instead of being aware of locations of dream events - like with dream cartography - you be aware of what time of the day the dream events occur? Or something to do with waking-life time?

NB: This is speculation:

We set our goal to remember more and more about our dreams, aka "improving dream recall". We are on some kind of continuum where we go from not remembering any dream content at all, towards trying to achieve the impossible ideal of remembering every detail of every dream. Wherever we are on our lucid journey we are at some point on that continuum. Is becoming lucid on a part of that continuum? It seems like that should make sense: If we are in a non-lucid and somewhere in the background the grey matter is ticking over, thinking, "Hey! I want to remember as much as this as possible!" then becoming lucid makes sense because, when we are lucid, we are more aware of what's going on around us - which helps us to remember, and we're more likely to actually wake up lucidly, which all improves recall.

So, instead of having some goal in our head of "being a lucid dreamer", it could be better to see ourselves as "being a great dream rememberer"? Becoming lucid is a by-product of the journey towards being a great dream rememberer?

Your speculation is on right track but you go to far. You need some observer to remember dream some without observer is no memory (at least normal episodic one) .More luciditity meen more episodic like memory if normal dream act for memory consolidation then rpobably dount need of creation of episodic memory , its possible is only a byporoduct.There are many ways how to imporve memory activate emotion more emotion more important memory will be and easier remember ,lucidity you are more engage in the dream is more inportatnt to youa nd you want to rember him also more lucidity is usualy more resources to senses you get more data.
activation of memory systems by lucidity and intention.One thing is creation od short term memory (medum term memory ) this type of emmory is moustly episodic and last about a day in hyppocampal buffer.
Big qestin is what happend next how large part of memory is saved to long term memory and how much detail we loose probaly be very similar to normal emmory consolidatin . If dreams are not important to us data are lost. Maybe is be good specifi we want episodic memory of dream that contains many details not semantic description.This long term memory is like try to remeber week old dream for instance.

Interesting part is episodic memory in the buffer is probably there but we have only very limited way how to found it .There re few trick to it for instance memory is linked to things like , place,time , object , emotion,
or even body position and mental state. If we simlate this conditions is much easier remember (in meditation is also less distraction).

Lucidity and memory is not the same it use different brain modules but there ale linked and stgly influnece each other. Also is important anothermodule/route and this is acces to diffrent konds of memory in dream.


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The time idea is only idea for now .I try few expedimnets when i have time i try dig in my mind some data about code/tags. memory form dreams use and maybe even try add some.Goal is make some system that link for instance demand for dream memory of first dream today to actual dream by creating Id. in noramal memory like date.time ,dream-nuber,keywords and link them to memory trace of dream automaticly.

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Another crazy idea form few dayes agoa was if dream is created on the fly or if exist something like dream scenario before dream bugun.If some cennario exist how long in advance , influnce leng of dream , feedback fom bahivior in the dream , is posiible cerate scenario and how ...? Many questions

Originally Posted by Bobblehat

NB: This is speculation:

We set our goal to remember more and more about our dreams, aka "improving dream recall". We are on some kind of continuum where we go from not remembering any dream content at all, towards trying to achieve the impossible ideal of remembering every detail of every dream. Wherever we are on our lucid journey we are at some point on that continuum. Is becoming lucid on a part of that continuum? It seems like that should make sense: If we are in a non-lucid and somewhere in the background the grey matter is ticking over, thinking, "Hey! I want to remember as much as this as possible!" then becoming lucid makes sense because, when we are lucid, we are more aware of what's going on around us - which helps us to remember, and we're more likely to actually wake up lucidly, which all improves recall.

So, instead of having some goal in our head of "being a lucid dreamer", it could be better to see ourselves as "being a great dream rememberer"? Becoming lucid is a by-product of the journey towards being a great dream rememberer?

As others have noted, there is synergy between the two, and feedback mechanisms I believe. Self-awareness and access to memory are related. So why not work on both recall and lucidity? That's what I do, I think it's the best way to go. Set intentions for both (I remember my dreams, I realize I'm dreaming in my dreams)