Thread: FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night

Why does that raise an eyebrow Sageous? The melatonin / serotonin balance is clearly shifted between wake and sleep, as is cortisol. Brain activity might appear to be similar when dreaming compared to waking, but it's not the same.

And how can your consciousness be working just fine in a NLD? That doesn't make any sense. Your consciousness has the capacity to be working just fine (up to a point) in a dream, but then that's probably an LD. What I'm saying is I don't think you can say you are conscious unless you know it at the time.
You seem to imply that missing access to memory in a NLD somehow says something about consciousness, but take the case of a person with severe dementia. They have loss of access to memory but are still fully conscious (i know that's not a perfect analogy). I just don't feel that your idea that waking life access to memory is some sort of definition of consciousness.

On the point about bleed-over of awareness from WL, I suspect that some people can dream about things at will as it were, or at least their dream subjects are recognisable as waking life events, whereas others (myself included) don't seem to have such a close link between WL and dream scenes or subjects, and dreams are more abstracted. I'm just suggesting that ADA may not work as well for some.
It's possible that the unconscious might even 'rebel' against any conscious efforts and do the opposite. Having said that, I'm not saying that the practice is wrong, just that it may not work for some and we need to be careful about saying this is the right and best way for everyone.

^^ I think, Goldenspark, that you might be conflating normal consciousness with its superior big brother, self-awareness, which is the prime ingredient for lucid dreaming.

Normal consciousness is, basically, an awareness of our surroundings, and this is something all living things have. Self-awareness, on the other hand, is also consciousness, but this time we are aware not only of our surroundings, but of our presence in those surroundings (the whole "I am" thing).

Normal consciousness is functioning during NLD's because our dream body selves are aware of their surroundings during dreams -- we just don't understand the nature of those surroundings at the time, due to a lack of self-awareness and access to memory. And that normal consciousness functions in much the same way as it does during most of waking-life, just without any access to memory or self-awareness.

About the only time you become truly unconscious when asleep is during NREM, and for me the jury is still out on that as well. But when dreaming, even when not lucid, your normal consciousness is active. So sleep does not equal unconsciousness, basically.

In a virtual sense, you are awake in your NLD's, because you are experiencing surroundings that appear real, and your dreaming self responds to them as if it were awake; indeed, without even questioning whether it is awake. That to me is an amazing thing about dreams: that you can consciously enjoy whole new worlds while you body is effectively unconscious in the waking world... lucidity is the ability to enjoy those worlds while knowing that you are enjoying them (and remembering that you wanted to do so).

People (sadly, most people, most of the time) tend to spend much of their waking life conscious but never self-aware: they may be functionally conscious, but fail to be aware that they are conscious (aka: self-awareness). The way we go through our day essentially on autopilot is not much different from the way we go through dreams... with one major exception: during waking life our access to memory is able to maintain order as we cruise through the day. That order is absent during dreams, as is access to memory. The thing that makes us lucid is our self-awareness, our knowing that we are present in the world we're negotiating, and are interacting with it constantly. And self-awareness requires some access to memory in order to exist.

Also, I have a feeling that a person with severe dementia is probably living a life much closer to a dream state than a waking state, if you really think about it. Yes, they are awake, and conscious, but without access to self-awareness or memory, they are lost in a world that probably behaves very much like a dream, or perhaps a nightmare.

Thanks Sageous, that's a very clear response. I do agree with most of that.

I'm not sure I agree with what you said that, "Normal consciousness is functioning during NLD's because our dream body selves are aware of their surroundings during dreams -- we just don't understand the nature of those surroundings at the time, due to a lack of self-awareness and access to memory."
I would say the lack of self-awareness and access to memory is part of being unconscious, so how can normal consciousness be functioning?

I suppose I'm saying that because consciousness and self-awareness are not binary states, but have a spectrum of degree, there can be some level of consciousness or self-awareness, but that for someone in a NLD, there is usually very little evidence of consciousness either externally or internally, and that the level of consciousness can be raised significantly by either waking, better remembering the dream (vivid) or becoming lucid, QED the level of consciousness was not normal.

That just means that snapping from auto-pilot to self-aware like we do in waking life is probably more difficult when dreaming, and so could be a reason why WL awareness exercises might not translate into the dream state so well for some.

I would love to prove myself wrong on that, so I will have another go at it to see if you are right and I am wrong!


By the way, sometimes the language I use might make it look like I know exactly what I'm talking about, but I am trying to explore and understand this and I don't get it all! I'm very appreciative of your perspective and insight, even if I might be a bit slow to understand

^^ I'm going to say something odd here that might go straight to what I'm failing to communicate; I hope you'll bear with me...

It seems that you are saying that sleep and unconsciousness are the same thing. They are not. I may be wrong, but I believe even the medical community terms sleep and unconsciousness as two different things.

Dreaming may happen when you are asleep, but that does not mean that it happens while you are unconscious. Unconsciousness -- literally the lack of consciousness -- probably only occurs during NREM (and maybe not even then, as we learn more about delta sleep). Conscious activity is present throughout REM, simply by the fact that your mind is responding to stimuli being presented in your dreams, and doing so with a DC "you" that is sure it is awake and functioning in the real world.

Also, your consciousness is present, albeit in a very primitive way, during most of the night's sleep in the sense that you can be woken up by alarms, bright light, people's voices, even smells (all part of our innate defense mechanisms that alert us to danger). So even your physical body is to some degree conscious when you are sleeping -- this, BTW, does not tend to happen when you are, say, knocked unconscious.

So, because it really is not literally unconsciousness (even though it seems like it at a glance), sleep can certainly contain consciousness.

Bottom line here is that sleep does not equal unconsciousness; it equals not being awake. Now:

Hopefully I can be more clear with a couple of quick direct responses:

Originally Posted by Goldenspark

I'm not sure I agree with what you said that, "Normal consciousness is functioning during NLD's because our dream body selves are aware of their surroundings during dreams -- we just don't understand the nature of those surroundings at the time, due to a lack of self-awareness and access to memory."
I would say the lack of self-awareness and access to memory is part of being unconscious, so how can normal consciousness be functioning?

Yes, the lack of self-awareness and memory are certainly part of being unconscious, just as they are both part of regular non-lucid dreaming. But normal consciousness can also be present without self-awareness or memory.

As you said, there are levels of consciousness, and the one present in your dreams is a level that does not include self-awareness or access to memory. But during a dream it does include other conscious activities, like reacting to stimuli, being aware that "I am here" -- even though that awareness is incorrect, because you don't have memory to confirm that "here" did not exist a few minutes ago -- and being able to choose things like where to go and what to say. Yes, it is your DC body that is doing all these things, but it still you trapped, unawares, within that body, and you feel at the time that you are making decisions, solving problems, and truly experiencing reality.

This version of normal consciousness is very much like the consciousness we use as a default as we move through our waking-life day on autopilot, which also occurs without any self-awareness. The only difference is that when we are awake we have memories we can tap to confirm that things are the way they are supposed to be, and to keep us from doing things like assuming dead people are alive, and helps us maintain a greater sense of identity, because all of the facts of our past are in order and available for reference.

I suppose I'm saying that because consciousness and self-awareness are not binary states, but have a spectrum of degree, there can be some level of consciousness or self-awareness, but that for someone in a NLD, there is usually very little evidence of consciousness either externally or internally, and that the level of consciousness can be raised significantly by either waking, better remembering the dream (vivid) or becoming lucid, QED the level of consciousness was not normal.

Yes, of course the level of conscious would be raised by becoming lucid, but the level of consciousness involved in lucidity is well above the level of normal consciousness. And yes, the level of consciousness in a NLD does increase a bit by waking up, because upon waking memory is back in the formula (which I think is where this all started), but I would argue it is still in the "normal" range; the act of recalling a dream might be a higher level because it might involve some self-awareness, but still close to normal. So, for me the QED does not work, because consciousness involved in dreaming is not much different than that used upon waking, unless self-awareness is added to the picture.

Also, yes, at first glance there is very little evidence of consciousness from an outside observer. At first glance.

But look a bit deeper. Watch a sleeper while she is dreaming: she might move a bit, maybe mumble, moan, or even speak clearly. She might change her facial expressions, and of course her eyes are moving. In fact, the only thing that makes her seem unconscious at all is the fact that her eyes are closed and she isn't walking around. On top of that, I believe also that testing has shown that brain activity during dreams is very similar to waking-state brain activity (exactly the same during LD's, but that doesn't matter here), so even science has gathered some evidence of consciousness during dreams as well.

Of course, the one place where your QED works is the bit you did not mention: consciousness in dreams may be very close to normal in observable, measurable ways, but it stills falls just shy of being totally normal because access to memory -- and the ordering and identity facilities it provides -- is missing. So that to me places consciousness during NLD's on the low end of the "normal consciousness" spectrum; but still normal.

Bottom line: if you allow the level of normal consciousness to have a bit of a spread (but not much) that includes waking-life autopilot, it would seem that consciousness in dreams is pretty much normal, but without the ordering influence of memory.

That just means that snapping from auto-pilot to self-aware like we do in waking life is probably more difficult when dreaming, and so could be a reason why WL awareness exercises might not translate into the dream state so well for some.

That is very true, though I would argue that most folks have about as much trouble snapping to self-awareness in waking-life as well!

Even more true: I do not believe that awareness exercises like ADA do much of anything to boost consistent lucidity. Indeed, I have argued in the past that ADA might be bad for lucidity, because it makes the wrong things important and tends to ignore self-awareness. However, if you are able to develop during waking-life a sense of self-awareness that is present without really needing to summon it (therefore no snapping) by remembering to do so, that sense might just be available during a dream (when memory is not available to summon it).

tl;dr: From a consciousness perspective, sleep -- especially during the REM period -- does not equal unconsciousness. This might seem counter intuitive, but I believe it is the case, and I hope you will consider it.

Just a p.s. since it's been mentioned several times in the recent discussion. In no way do I consider the sort of awareness I'm proposing here as "ADA" as usually defined (KingYoshi style). On the contrary, it is awareness involving the self, with higher level functions like reflection and memory active.

I guess it depends on how loose you are prepared to define consciousness. To me consciousness goes hand in hand with awareness, and so it is only when awake or lucid dreaming that you have the level of awareness that qualifies.
Sure, when asleep you can respond to stimuli, but that's not being aware. You can say that you are reacting to the events in a NLD, but if you are not aware, and have little memory of it after the fact, I don't consider that to be conscious.
However, I'm not going to get hung up on that point of order.
What's more interesting is actually what is going on, or what is not, in the NL dreaming brain, such that we can consider ways to spark it into lucidity without jumping straight to waking.
I'm interested in your ideas about lack of access to memory. Knowing that the dreaming brain shows almost the same activity as the brain awake, and knowing that the brain is almost holographic in operation makes me wonder how it is that access to waking memory systems is suppressed.
It seems such a specific function of the brain to switch off. What is the purpose of that?
If it is in some way an evolutionary way to protect us from our dreams, why? it's only really as fully self-aware beings that we are able to fear or dreams. Animals that are clearly much less, if at all, self-aware still dream, but if they are not self-aware what reason would be needed to hide dream sequences from their sleeping brains. REM atonia stops them acting out their dreams, so they are safe.
The only thing I can think of is that dreams are haphazard and so memories of them would be confusing, or even dangerous in the real world.
The idea that we might use dreams to practice scenarios in preparation for real world experience might suggest that we might not want to learn a knee-jerk response from our dreams that could be wrong.
That selective amnesia in dreams does bother me. I do wonder if it's not so much that we don't have access to our memories, but that maybe the brain is fooling us in some way to make it feel like we don't have access to our memories.

The discussion has started to diverge beyond what I think I'd like to have here. There are other threads available, like

http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ndamental.html

and

http://www.dreamviews.com/wild/12557...mentals-q.html

or of course you could start a new one.

Thanks.

Goldenspark:

I still think you might be considering awareness and self-awareness as the same thing, which is not the best thing to do when practicing LD'ing, but I'll choose not to get hung up on it as well and move on:

Originally Posted by Goldenspark

I'm interested in your ideas about lack of access to memory. Knowing that the dreaming brain shows almost the same activity as the brain awake, and knowing that the brain is almost holographic in operation makes me wonder how it is that access to waking memory systems is suppressed.
It seems such a specific function of the brain to switch off. What is the purpose of that?

Perhaps there is no purpose at all. It could be that consciousness during sleep (aka, dreaming -- I know, I know, but let me use the idea anyway so I can finish this sentence! ) is an accident of evolution rather than a product of it, and accessing memory never found its way into the hard-wiring involved in exciting the imagery and perceptions of dreams.

The brain is complex enough that dreams could be nothing more than a "white noise" of activity occurring as it idles during sleep (note that REM happens more toward the end of the sleep cycle, as the brain begins firing up for its day's waking-life work -- increasing its idling noise, as it were). This would follow as well because higher animals -- who do not access memory as we do -- dream as well, so the mechanism might predate our elevation to sentience and sentience's necessary use of memory; meaning access to memory was simply not included in the accidental development of dreams, because it came after dreaming was established.


...But we all like to believe that dreams serve some specific purpose, so perhaps this is not the case. How about these thoughts:

It could be that access to memory might make us "too awake" during dreams, so we might potentially miss out on necessary rest; by the same token we might also be more prone to waking up before the sleep cycle has ended.

Or, let's say that dreams really do carry meaning, that they were designed as vehicles for things like problem solving or mental growth/health: in that case, it could be that access to memory is denied so that we can receive the message of the dream without saying, "Hey, this isn't the way things are supposed to be!." By the same token, it could be that access to memory is denied because the dreaming mind requires us to accept without question the imperfect imagery it creates.

Or it could be something else altogether; maybe someday we'll know for sure.


Keep in mind also that memory is never actually turned off. Our dreams, after all, are essentially created from memories, even if those memories so often seem randomly retrieved as bizarre schemata are assembled. Also, when dreaming we are able to clumsily tap some of our memories, like when we recognize the people to whom we're talking, or the house in which we might be moving. On top of all that, when we're lucid, memory can become completely accessible without much effort. So memory is functioning during dreams, it is simply not available to our non-lucid dreaming selves in a waking-life manner.

If it is in some way an evolutionary way to protect us from our dreams, why? it's only really as fully self-aware beings that we are able to fear or dreams. Animals that are clearly much less, if at all, self-aware still dream, but if they are not self-aware what reason would be needed to hide dream sequences from their sleeping brains. REM atonia stops them acting out their dreams, so they are safe.

I don't think this is the case, either, since we lucid dreamers have proven that there is nothing to be afraid of, so we would likely do the same if access memory were available in NLD's -- of course, then they wouldn't be NLD's would they?


Also:

The only thing I can think of is that dreams are haphazard and so memories of them would be confusing, or even dangerous in the real world.

I could see that, sure. I think it also sort of lines up with something I said above.

The idea that we might use dreams to practice scenarios in preparation for real world experience might suggest that we might not want to learn a knee-jerk response from our dreams that could be wrong.

I like that thought!

That selective amnesia in dreams does bother me. I do wonder if it's not so much that we don't have access to our memories, but that maybe the brain is fooling us in some way to make it feel like we don't have access to our memories.

I doubt that. Since our brains literally are us (or at least the engines that create us), I really don't think they would be in the business of fooling us about anything. Any fooling would, in my opinion, be unintentional. If anything, (and a good tl;dr, BTW) our brains simply did not include access to memory in the dreaming process because either the need never arose, or they simply, um, forgot.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

The discussion has started to diverge beyond what I think I'd like to have here. There are other threads available, like

http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ndamental.html

and

http://www.dreamviews.com/wild/12557...mentals-q.html

or of course you could start a new one.

Thanks.

oops! My last post was done before I saw your request, FryingMan; I'll hope you'll forgive one more trespass!

Apologies Fryingman, didn't mean to hijack your thread!

The here described approach of keeping the same mindset at day which one would like to have at night made a lot of sense to me. So the last few days I practiced self-awareness. I noticed that it is quite difficult to maintain awareness while doing something else, especially while thinking or concentrating on something. This would make sense, because self-awareness is 'being present' and thinking on something is being somewhere else in a way. How did you solve this problem?

Also, self-awareness does somewhat feel like tensing an inner muscle to me. Over the past few days now, an inner tension has build up, which doesn't feel right. Fryingman said that maintaining awareness is not tiresome, but this tension certainly is. I can't help the feeling that I did something wrong here.

what self awareness is too: Noticing that one zoned out. it is normal that your attention is not omnipresent. when you do something that acquires a lot of your "processor" there is not much left for other tasks. but when the task is done and you free some of the processor space you can "snap back" and notice you was not mindful and start being mindful again.

what self awareness is not: ALL DAY AWARENESS OF EVERYTHING. that indeed drains you hard in only 2 or 3 days. dont try to see everything or catch every thought of you just try not to be on autopilot all the time. when you do boring stuff thats the time mostlikely we zone out: brushing teeth, bathing, driving car (sure i drove 30min but how the hell get i to school?! i was in my thoughts the whole time...) or when you sit in a bus or waiting on the bus. that are the small timepoints that are made for mindfullness practice.

because self awareness or mindfulness is not second nature for human beings and you learned for 20+ years to behave different like zone out and be on autopilot for about 80-90% of the day it is a "muscle" you are training and yes it hurts dont overdo it. imagine you are going to gym. it is better to go 2-3 days a week for a year and build up steady your straight. at the beginning you dont do a lot of repetitions and are not for a long time there. but after some time you get better, take more weight and can do longer cardio units.
--> this is a good approach a steady one. one you can do gradually and get better and better.
other possibility: yay gym is soooo awesome i want go and pump all day every day because i want quick results. the first week or so you might get positive results but then you are drained and your fuel is empty. now you will hurt yourself because your muscles are damaged or you will see that even if you are there for the 7th day and you should be better you got worse than the second day? How come? you get discouraged and give up....

when you practice mindfulness you want a steady approach over YEARS and not for some weeks or month. you will notice more and more often that you was on autopilot. it is depressing because you feel like it happens all the time and you cant change it. but you already did huge progress because you NOTICE it! and the more you practice and meditate you will see that your baseline of mindfulness rises. even if you are on autopilot or doing a task that needs 90% of your processor capacity you will still notice more around and inside you than you did a year or five or whatever before. your angle of view gets bigger.

Originally Posted by Nightfeather

The here described approach of keeping the same mindset at day which one would like to have at night made a lot of sense to me. So the last few days I practiced self-awareness. I noticed that it is quite difficult to maintain awareness while doing something else, especially while thinking or concentrating on something. This would make sense, because self-awareness is 'being present' and thinking on something is being somewhere else in a way. How did you solve this problem?

Also, self-awareness does somewhat feel like tensing an inner muscle to me. Over the past few days now, an inner tension has build up, which doesn't feel right. Fryingman said that maintaining awareness is not tiresome, but this tension certainly is. I can't help the feeling that I did something wrong here.

RelaxAndDream made some good points. (And his nickname makes a great mantra: "Relax, and dream!")

Something else I've noticed recently, relating to attention/focus/mindfulness/etc. Becoming fully present in the moment is not a tensing, but rather a relaxation. You let go of the tension, the spinning-racing-monkey-mind, and really open yourself up to your current experience. It it hard to convey this in words exactly. Just like meditation, if you're scrunching up your forehead and holding your breath and "working hard" and tensing all your muscles trying to force the result you want, that's what you're doing wrong. There's a reason that seated meditation is the way it is. One has to be physically and mentally quiet in order to begin to make the deeper observations of self and mind.

Only when you are quiet can your "internal observer" operate at full effectiveness.

The relaxation effect is miraculous and extremely powerful. Look at the lucid dreaming competitions here on DV, look at the experiences of people who "try hard" for lucid dreams for a while, then "quit" from frustration. Very very frequently, they will experience lucid dreams on the very night after the competition ended or right when they supposedly "quit" the practice! Release that tension! Take a deep breath, and on the exhale release all physical and mental tension and feel yourself completely enter into the present moment.

I find that when I do this, my vision widens and I'm aware of a lot more around me. Focus and tension are narrow, relaxation and mindfulness are wide and open.

I like to say out loud, "*I* am *here*, *now*, experiencing this moment"

I think you're making good progress already and are thinking about the right things. You've noticed that thinking or concentrating hard are times where maintaining your "awareness of your awareness" is difficult. Good! Now you can be alert to noticing these times. When you notice them, take a brief moment to relax and to consider what it feels like to be concentrating and focusing hard on something. Notice more and more throughout the day when you've "zombied/zoned out" or "been elsewhere" and tune back in to the present moment for a while.

Mindfulness is not something you "solve" and be done with it. It is something you work on, every day, for your whole life. Resolve in the morning every day, "today, I will more and more be attentive to my mental state, to my thoughts, to be mindful of the present." The more you do it, the more you'll want to do it, and the longer you'll be able to operate with in a quiet and mindful manner. Just like lucid dreaming practice itself, it's a journey: love the journey!

Qui-Gon: "Don't center on your anxieties, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs."
Obi-Wan: "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future."
Qui-Gon: "But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, young Padawan."

I really really recommend books like "Mindfulness in Plain English" and "Wherever you go, there you are: mindfulness meditation in everyday life". They give jargon-free approachable excellent explanations and suggestions for things to do during the day to promote mindfulness. Doing what they suggest, I find myself having a number of moments throughout the day of becoming focused on the breath, relaxing, and really entering into the present moment, and examining things like stress and anger, etc dispassionately, and letting them go. The books explain it much better than I can.

^So much good stuff FM! I think it really says something about how many of us come to find the same or similar experiences and find much benefit from the experiences and practices.

Do I need to stop whatever I'm doing to "soak up" what I'm experiencing? Because I find it extremely it difficult to do while performing tasks that require mental concentration, like reading for example.

I think "full stop" moments are very good, especially if your goal is lucidity in a dream. When concentrating, try to work in acknowledging the fact that you're concentrating, or just take periodic short "stop" moments from time to time.

Ultimately, you want to activate a permanent "observer" that is always aware of what's going on.

So if i get this right the way to become aware and present in your dreams is to be aware during the day and your waking life?

Yes! Become a lucid person 24x7, pay attention to all your experiences (waking or dreaming), and both your waking and dreaming lives will be richly enhanced.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Just a p.s. since it's been mentioned several times in the recent discussion. In no way do I consider the sort of awareness I'm proposing here as "ADA" as usually defined (KingYoshi style). On the contrary, it is awareness involving the self, with higher level functions like reflection and memory active.

Mate sorry to bother you again but can you be more specific about how this is done?Any exact techniques i could practise?For example yoshi was talking about being aware of every little detail your senses can detect.So in your instance what should i be aware of?

This is more of a "in general what one should be doing" thread as opposed to "specifically how to." There are a lot of variations on how-to, everyone's different and different things work for different people. Let's take it to PM for now. I'll probably start a "practical" version of this thread which could be a brainstorming session on specific approaches.

This looks a lot like ADA(All day awarennes) thread....

^^ Sigh...

Mate122, it does look a lot like ADA, but FryingMan has covered up it's significant holes.

ADA recommends being aware during the day. It says that this awareness will automatically transfer into dreams. People read this and think they don't have to put in effort to be aware during the night because it will be automatic at that point. This lack of effort can have a negative effect on the awareness of their dreams. FryingMan covered up that hole by recommending you continue the practice at all times, whether you're awake, sleeping or dreaming.

ADA also doesn't require you to tie the awareness you're experiencing with dreaming. This can cause those practicing it, if they're aware during their dreams, to have a tougher time recalling the memory of dreaming required to become lucid because dreaming isn't all that important to them, so the concept of dreaming is less likely to come across their minds during the dream. FryingMan covered up that hole by recommending you tie your awareness with dreaming so that dreaming is important enough to you that it will come across your mind during the dream.

What Frying presents is better than ADA. Think of it as a new model.

Thanks, dolphin!

Indeed, if I had to choose one well-known practice to compare my attention/awareness recommendation to, it would be "mindfulness." ADA as usually described IMO places too much emphasis on attempting to immerse oneself in the vast ocean of minute sense input, rather than mantaining your awareness at a high level, focusing on your self.

But again, I don't prescribe particulars in this thread. Everyone should find the form of attention that works for them. The main thing I promote here is *paying attention* in some (high-level, self-focused) form (plus reflection, recall, and doing it both night and day).