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    Thread: Instadreamer - Why I'm Not Supporting it (and why you shouldn't either)

    1. #1
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      Instadreamer - Why I'm Not Supporting it (and why you shouldn't either)

      TL;DR: The Instadreamer Kickstarter campaign is snake oil. Please, people, do not waste your money on this, the science is awful, everything is contradictory. If you've already backed it, save yourself your hard earned money and inevitable disappointment and revoke your pledge while you still can.


      This is why I’m not Supporting Instadreamer (and why you shouldn’t either).

      Over the past few weeks I’ve had a lot of questions about the latest Kickstarter lucid dreaming machine, “Instadreamer”.

      Now, ignoring the tacky and misleading name, there are so many reasons why I’d hugely recommend avoiding this and other hype-fuelled so-called lucid dreaming devices that crop up regularly on Kickstarter.

      In fact, if you’ve already backed this project, I’d recommend getting a refund while you still can.

      For those who’d rather not read, here’s my tongue-in-cheek video that explains why (but it’s a serious message)

      Watch the Video Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBUsQuA0rGg

      Otherwise, here are just a handful of reasons this particular device seems incredibly suspect:


      • The prototype is a smart-watch poorly hidden under electrical tape. Yet in the campaign they try to hint/claim that they have “built” a prototype. Now that’s a shocking lapse in honesty right of the bat. Do they have the expertise to bring a device to market? If they’ve only run tests using an off-the-shelf smartwatch, why not just release the software as an app and allow people to just buy a smartwatch, for the same price, with many other features? (I think we know the answer to that one... $$$)

      • The principle is nothing new and applied in flawed fashion. Pavlovian response (classical conditioning) is something lucid dreamers have been doing for a long time, only with more finesse and with important additional skills; this is the entire principle behind reality checks. However, traditional reality checks also combine observation, awareness, knowledge of one’s dreams etc. It’s also the principle behind other lucid dreaming devices; both the NovaDreamer and REM Dreamer required the user to perform reality checks during waking hours whenever they’d see a flashing light (which will then be supplied during dreams via the device). So, Instadreamer are automating reality check cues, which is basically another way of saying that they’re removing observation and awareness from the process - doesn’t that sound a bit backwards when lucidity is all about awareness? Another problem is that vibrations are really not very good at crossing over into the dream world. Many have experimented with this with little success. Mostly, vibrations seem to wake users, which is why it’s a common “silent alarm” for most smartwatches and phones.


      • Learning to reality check based on random vibrations is counterproductive. Reality checks should require observation, awareness, critical thinking and be linked to dreamlike events (something that requires one to become familiar with one’s own dreamworld in order to achieve). The Pavlovian response is only one tiny factor that lucid dreamers employ during regular reality checks - and not a particularly important one. Moreover, any experienced lucid dreamer will tell you that reality checks alone are not the single key to nightly lucid dreams. So, the Instadreamer approach of dumbing them down further into little more than an automated mindlessness act is a ridiculous concept.


      • Using an accelerometer and heart-rate monitor to assess when one enters REM is a very imprecise means to of doing so. More precise devices such as the NovaDreamer and REM Dreamer which monitor eye movements directly have already been proven to not be particularly effective at inducing lucid dreams. The Instadreamer is a step-down from previous devices and yet they claim to be revolutionary.[/LIST]


      There are many more reasons, many of which I cover in my video, so here it is again:




      Don’t waste your money on hype and false hope. This device cannot and will not live up to its claims. Lucid dreaming is a natural skill that you can learn at no cost. These guys are no different from people trying to sell you the air you breathe (only in this case, the air would be toxic). Please do your bit to raise awareness and help others avoid wasting their money on this and other devices. They do little more than disappoint and turn people away from lucid dreaming.

      #instadreamer #luciddreaming
      Last edited by DanielLove; 08-04-2018 at 06:39 AM. Reason: fixing formatting error

    2. #2
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    3. #3
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      Actually, I think the 'InstaDreamer' vibrating wristband idea is quite genius. The day-mode/night-mode design seems promising. It vibrates daily to remind you to reality check and then while you're asleep to remind you again to reality check. Seems like a supplemental device that may positively impact the frequency of LDing. Just my opinion though.

    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by dream View Post
      Actually, I think the 'InstaDreamer' vibrating wristband idea is quite genius. The day-mode/night-mode design seems promising. It vibrates daily to remind you to reality check and then while you're asleep to remind you again to reality check. Seems like a supplemental device that may positively impact the frequency of LDing. Just my opinion though.
      Now, the idea of the band is good, sure. But the tech cannot be what it promises to be (of looking at your vitals, etc), simply because it's not technologically possible in a cost-effective manner, given the device's scale, especially on the budget they got.

      Very very seriously, just get a vibrating toy that vibrates at semi-random intervals. Much cheaper, same effect... Then you can put it under your pillow or in your pocket. Heck I'm sure there's some phone app that can do the same thing for free; it's really easy to program something like that.

      You can see my previous reply on the other post from Daniel, but believe what you want though, it's your money.
      Singled out from some of my favourite quotes from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: "Risks of [Planet] flowering: considerable. But rewards of godhood: who can measure? - Usurper Judaa'Maar: Courage: to question."

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      Quote Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness View Post
      Now, the idea of the band is good, sure. But the tech cannot be what it promises to be (of looking at your vitals, etc), simply because it's not technologically possible in a cost-effective manner, given the device's scale, especially on the budget they got.

      Very very seriously, just get a vibrating toy that vibrates at semi-random intervals. Much cheaper, same effect... Then you can put it under your pillow or in your pocket. Heck I'm sure there's some phone app that can do the same thing for free; it's really easy to program something like that.

      You can see my previous reply on the other post from Daniel, but believe what you want though, it's your money.
      True. It's basically just a vibrating wristband. I honestly wouldn't consider buying it. It's a neat idea, but then again... is it really necessary? There does exist a phone app called "Awoken" that does the very same thing.
      DarkestDarkness likes this.

    6. #6
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      I had some minor success with pavlovian response. However, I won't rely on it and apps like Awoken can somewhat do the job. I would rather rely on my own natural faculties to become lucid as it's more reliable, but I can understand the appeal for beginners in wanting a easy way into lucidity. My advice will always be to consider any devices you use or supplements you take as a support and not a replacement for developing your natural ability.
      DarkestDarkness likes this.

    7. #7
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      I don't think this is really that new, as Oneirics Electronics (a previous kickstarter project last updated on face book like 3 years ago) used a Mask with a Braclet trainer concept too.

      As for being able to detect REM from just the wrist there was the BASIS PEAK, but it was developed by a fairly large company, not to mention the fact that after being aquired by intel for many millions of dollars every BASIS tracker ever made was recalled for safety reasons. (I was just about to buy one when I figured it would be on sale for the coming christmas when I found out it was being recalled and discontinued)

      But while its nothing new and may not have the funding or know how to ever actually come to market (Hey Oneirics when will your bracelets be out?), the Idea certainly sounds like a good one.

      Oneirics also planned to have random conditioning to vibration but to track REM a differnt way then signal the band.

      What I don't like is that this device says it will connect by WiFi after the fact.

      I have a blue-tooth sleep tracker that often accurately detects my REM, I know when it does because I have trained myself to wake pretty much after every dream (more or less) and often I check the subsequent hypnogram vs my notes/audio dream journal recordings, and it has detected me to be dreaming just before these wake times. (but It only shows this after the fact as well when you tell it to stop tracking, although it often doesn't show any REM when I remembered a dream).

      I think a vibrating band might work for me, but I would want one I could wear on my ankle, and I would like it to be something I could wear during the day with random conditioning (just as the Onerics and this band claim they will do)

      But I would also like it if it could receive a signal from other devices, or send to other devices in real time.

      Daniel mentions scent as penetrating into dreams. I have a WiFi scent dispenser, I wish it could be hooked to my sleep detecteor through IFTTT or some other way, and would wish the same for this band if it ever comes to exist.

      I wouldn't care if all it did was vibrate and answer, if it could talk to other devices I could have my
      S+ sleep detector detect Dream (then if it could in real time call to the IFTTT or whatever device or app, and then in turn contact my AREA scenting device and spit out some vanilla scent, while telling this band to vibrate


      So I'll wait and see what if anything comes out in 2019 or some subsequent year

      but if it can talk to other devices (My AREA currently can't) (My S+ was highly modded software wise by one lucid dreamer to be able to detect in real time and talk to at least some other devices he was using sound) (also I have Many Philips Hue Lights as well as some LIFX ones) (and I have speakers too of course) then I would probably buy one, especially if it turned out to be highly flexible and could be worn on the ankle.

      Once I have the ability to connect REM detection (by whatever means) to my existing Sound, Sight, and Secent Devices, I would certainly want to have Tactile sense available too

      As for in the current inventors comment about finding the optimal moment, I would just want the signal to be picked up and conveyed to my IFTTT or whatever within about 30sec to 2min of detection, then I would want to be able to singal some or all other devices to trigger their various signal such as vibration, flashing, scent release, ambient sound or verbal message.

      I have had some success with secnt and sound so far, but it has been very hit and miss, scince it was never hooked to the REM detection in real time.
      Last edited by cooleymd; 09-30-2018 at 07:42 AM.
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      Iwinks Aurora was going to be bad at detecting rem, and I called them out on it many times, but at least in principal could still to some very small very imprecise percentage do so, since it still had some electrodes, badly placed, no ground, but they were still there.

      InstaDreamer on the other hand doesn't even have electrodes. It's like these kickstarter lucid dream devices are in competition to see who can create the worst possible device. I use a sport watch, one that has sleep cycles all that good stuff. It's great for ruining, can show great vital details on my heart rate and movement, for RUNNING but it is insane to say this tec is gonna detect rem.

      If you give money to this you will regret it.
      Last edited by pointofbeing; 01-03-2019 at 09:57 AM.

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