Thread: Stop Drop and Roll. Why Lucidology and Nicholas Newport are creating misinformation.

Originally Posted by WLLPEREGOY

um...... uh............ what uh was that?

I have no idea, other than yet another plug for saltcube. Seriously...who pays 35 bucks to use a forum, especially one that contains information that is freely available? And yeah...all this mumbo jumbo about beaches and mandalas belongs in BD.

If I'm reading this right, she's trying to connect internet hacking tools to...an in-dream coincidence?

Originally Posted by Mario92

I have no idea, other than yet another plug for saltcube. Seriously...who pays 35 bucks to use a forum, especially one that contains information that is freely available? And yeah...all this mumbo jumbo about beaches and mandalas belongs in BD.

If I'm reading this right, she's trying to connect internet hacking tools to...an in-dream coincidence?

i cant make any sense out of her posts

Ok, so I just found this thread, and one of the key things I've been using apparently is actually from this guy on youtube, despite the fact that I read it here on dreamviews. And that is the idea that the mind and body are seperate and that the body tries to see if the mind is awake or not. I have used this technique to successfully complete a WILD before, but since it hasn't happened again, I've been wondering if it was just luck. So maybe it was. My question then is how do you enter sleep paralysis and how awake are you supposed to keep your mind. I always adjust my consciousness to get lower if I feel I'll never get relaxed enouygh for my body to sleep, but I just end up falling asleep. Help would be appreciated. And thanks for the warning, it's very important imho.

It was most likely placebo dude

Originally Posted by Raspberry

It was most likely placebo dude

Agreed. Sarge, you also seem to have some misconceptions about WILD. I would highly recommend checking out Mzzkc's WILD guide.

I like Nick's free YouTube 101 cos it is all about "relaxation". Lobsang Rampa said that Astral Projection is all about complete relaxation and right intentions.

Due to nerve damage some of my muscles are extremely tight and tense 24/7. They ache 24/7. If I don't take pain meds at bedtime I wake 3 or more times in 8 hours in pain.

Two days ago I bought a new gadget and hope to come of my pain meds, permanently. Then I hope to get into Nick' s Free 101 and post any results.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Agreed. Sarge, you also seem to have some misconceptions about WILD. I would highly recommend checking out Mzzkc's WILD guide.

Ok... can you elaborate? What exactly do I need to ignore and replace with this Mzzkc's theories?

Originally Posted by Sarge_Maximus2

this Mzzkc's

I lawled.

Originally Posted by Sarge_Maximus2

Ok... can you elaborate? What exactly do I need to ignore and replace with this Mzzkc's theories?

Well, you mentioned inducing sleep paralysis. That's fine and all, but not necessary. Indeed...falling asleep is what you really want to do, but while retaining consciousness.

Help!

3 folk have sent something to my DV profile. It just says "tick this box" if you want Him/Her/it as a friend or contact?

What will happen if I tick the box?

Will I be notified every time said friend or contact posts any where on DV.

Or what?

Originally Posted by Mario92

Well, you mentioned inducing sleep paralysis. That's fine and all, but not necessary. Indeed...falling asleep is what you really want to do, but while retaining consciousness.

And the tutorial must tell me how to do that, yes?

Originally Posted by Sarge_Maximus2

And the tutorial must tell me how to do that, yes?

Certainly.

Originally Posted by debrajane

Help!

3 folk have sent something to my DV profile. It just says "tick this box" if you want Him/Her/it as a friend or contact?

What will happen if I tick the box?

Will I be notified every time said friend or contact posts any where on DV.

Or what?

Well, as it says, if you want the people as friends, tick the box. If not, don't tick the box. Most people just tick the box.

Originally Posted by debrajane

Help!

3 folk have sent something to my DV profile. It just says "tick this box" if you want Him/Her/it as a friend or contact?

What will happen if I tick the box?

Will I be notified every time said friend or contact posts any where on DV.

Or what?

Visit meta much?

Lol. You're funny. I can't tell what your motives are but it sure will be interesting to watch your activity around here.

Well I'm not most people, Raspberry.

So

For now i'm not clicking no boxes. Yes, I want you 3 guys as friends but I don't know what the Dream Views definition of friends is, yet.

And

Jeff777

If you want Fun, then, gaze into my avatar before you have a nap, then make a note of anything peculiar that pops up in your dream. Then see if it correlates to what I post in my "Synchronicity Game thread" in the Beyond Dreaming forum.

I'll post in just over 24 hours from now.

You don't have to post if you don't want to. Just give it a go for fun.

I probably won't be chatting to participants anyway cos I don't want to be flamed or slammed. I think the best way to side step all that is to stay silent and just post a Target once a week and let participants discover for themselves.

Originally Posted by debrajane

Well I'm not most people, Raspberry.

So

For now i'm not clicking no boxes. Yes, I want you 3 guys as friends but I don't know what the Dream Views definition of friends is, yet.

And

Jeff777

If you want Fun, then, gaze into my avatar before you have a nap, then make a note of anything peculiar that pops up in your dream. Then see if it correlates to what I post in my "Synchronicity Game thread" in the Beyond Dreaming forum.

I'll post in just over 24 hours from now.

You don't have to post if you don't want to. Just give it a go for fun.

I probably won't be chatting to participants anyway cos I don't want to be flamed or slammed. I think the best way to side step all that is to stay silent and just post a Target once a week and let participants discover for themselves.

Umm... Ok. I was trying to help, and I just said that that's what the majority of people do. It's not like I pushed your buttons. DV friends don't really do anything except show up on your profile. Don't worry, your internet reputation remains intact.

Also, I think you should keep to to main topic of the thread, instead of posting questions here that have nothing to do with it. I noticed you doing this on other threads too. If you have a question, make a thread or pm someone (a mod perhaps?) please.

Cheers

I think there is some over-reaction to Nick's methods for LD/OBE induction techniques, as I found much of his information is accurate and helpful. I'll give some personal testimonials based on my 10+ years of practicing lucid dreaming:

Spoiler for Rhythmic napping:

I have verified this works before and after I discovered what LDing was, and it is a prevalent technique among many "LD experts" and techniques that are present today. In fact, this in combination with DEILD (which nick also talks about) is probably the technique I have had the most success with, though I find my normal alarm seems to works better than his saltcube timer. Of course, this is most likely because my computer tends to go into hibernation or restart after a few hours of inactivity, which prevents the timer from reliably doing its job.

Spoiler for Using Sleep paralysis to enter LDs:

Again, so prevalent is this technique that it's almost not a technique, but rather a generally understood and accepted practice in the lucid dreaming community. Many of my of lucid dreams/OBEs have come about from being able to stay conscious while sleep paralysis sets in, and is an integral part of most WILD methods.

Spoiler for The urge to move:

I find this particular information to be accurate. Not more than 2-3 days ago I took a sleeping pill to help fall asleep. The directions were to take one pill at bedtime, however I took the pill and did not go to bed until 30-45 later. At that time I was pretty tired, however when I crawled into bed, it was like my body was trying to fall asleep TOO fast. I immediately had these overwhelming urges to roll around (not itches or anything)...so much so that it actually prevented my from falling asleep for an hour or so after going to bed, despite being very drowsy. I think there is some sense in the "sensory deprivation" idea presented, but it didn't really make sense in this instance, or many other instances.

When Nick talks about the "body" testing the mind to see if its cognizant before inducing sleep paralysis, I do not think he actually means the brainless parts of our body, that seemed rather clear to me. Instead, I think he simply means that its the mind testing itself, by using bodily sensations as a tool. However, it is much simpler to explain the process by referring to body and mind than it would be to refer to mind and mind (which would probably be more accurate). I don't have any doubt that there is some sort of a process in which the mind/brain evaluates itself before inducing sleep paralysis. How this happens, not sure. But, its not as if people are suddenly stricken with sleep paralysis while fully awake if they stay up past the time they normally go to bed. With that being said, much of what Nick is saying is consistent with my own experiences of the "urge to move" sensations, the majority of which occurred before ever discovering his videos. I do find that, by ignoring them and continuing to remain still and relaxed, sleep paralysis can and does set in much faster.

On a side note, when Nick talks about specifically about itches, he does not fully attribute those sensations to mind tests. Instead, he explains why itching can (physically) happen and how to fix the problems:
-Drinking more water
-Vacuuming more often
-Use lotion
-Take a warm shower before going to bed

Spoiler for Hypnogogic Hallucinations:

Once again, I find this information to be very accurate and consistent with my own experiences. Nick talks about those moments in which you are starting to fall asleep, and experience an impression of something (maybe a random landscape), but no recollection of when that landscape came into view. This *IS* a great indicator of when you body is entering a good state for LD practice, as it is essentially a mini-dream (which lets you know your body is just about relaxed enough to start the dreaming process).

Spoiler for Other aspects I found accurate and helpful:

1.) How he discerns visualization from conceptualization when trying to conjure mental imagery. Most of the time, especially when you first begin, you do not physically see the imagery you are picturing. Instead, it much closer to mentally imagining what the object/scenery looks like in your minds eye. Trying to actually see the imagery is usually counter productive, as it shifts your focus to your physical sense of sight, which is normally just blackness or those swirling patterns you see behind your eyelids. If you are able to conceptualize an object/scene well enough, and you are relaxed enough, the mental imagery will subtly transition into actual visuals naturally. I find that you do not really need to "try" to actually see anything, it'll just happen as a consequence of good conceptualization.

2.) Avoiding bright light (and general sensory stimulation) an hour or so before bed. If I am on the computer or watching TV up until the moment I go to bed, I find that I have much less of a chance of having an LD (or even dreams in general). However when I do not, the inverse is true...again something that is consistent with my own experiences long before ever discovering Nick's videos. Another example is camping. As sensory stimulation gradually lessens as the night falls (no TV, no overwhelming artificial sources of light, etc) I tend to get tired much earlier in the evening. This makes it easier to have LDs, as my mind is not buzzing with the random thoughts and my body has prepared itself for sleep BEFORE I try to go to sleep.

3.) Having a better chance of LDing early in the morning than once you go to bed. Again ,this is more or less an accepted truth in the LDing community. Not only has you mind had a chance to quiet itself through normal sleep and sensory deprivation, but your body is "pre-relaxed" for your LDing convenience. In addition, like Nick said, your melatonin IS being converted into serotonin which helps awaken the mind. So, what can happen when you have a tired and relaxed body and an alert mind?

4.) Keeping a dream journal for better dream recall. I don't really need to go into why this is no "BS".

5.) Using the sensation of touch to help solidify dreams. All I can tell you is that is has been my main solution for curing separation blindness, and I have heard of this technique (or variations thereof) countless times across several books and LDing forums.

Sure, none of this stuff is really "new". However I personally had to gather and piece-together little nuggets of good information (over several years of studying) and Nick did this for you in his "How to OBE" 2-part video. For me, it simply reinforced what I had already come to know was accurate, while giving a different perspective on the basic ideas. And yes, while some of the graphs did seem superfluous, I found many of them to be helpful. I am an artist, and being as such, I am a very visual learner. If I can correlate what I am being taught with a visual reference of some sort, usually that information will make more sense to me.

Nick may not be best graph maker, or may not know enough about learning theory to use visual references in the most effective ways. I don't necessarily think he was using graphs to con people, but rather just to reinforce the ideas he was speaking about. And so what if he charges money for his product. I can testify that it can be hard and time consuming to research, discuss, and test all of the various LDing stuff out there -- to weed out the stuff that doesn't seem to work and be left with a nice, comprehensive understanding on how to have LDs. I don't see anything wrong with Nick asking for compensation for the time and effort it takes. And if you don't think so, no one if forcing you to buy his videos...just like no one is forcing you to buy the crap off infomercials. Like you all have been saying, the same info can be found on the internet for free...so instead of paying Nick to research and assemble the info for you, do it yourself and save some $$.

But most of all, put on your big-boy underwear and stop whining. If you don't like his stuff, that's perfectly fine. Move on already. All this talk about taking down his website and etc is despicable...

I wish I had big boy underwear. But unfortunately my short girl boxers tend to have stuff like "I <3 Girl Pants" or "I'm with the band" or "GO BANANA'S!" on them.

If anyone knows where to find big boy underwear, let me know

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

I think there is some over-reaction to Nick's methods for LD/OBE induction techniques, as I found much of his information is accurate and helpful. I'll give some personal testimonials based on my 10+ years of practicing lucid dreaming:

Sorry to ruin it for you, but the thread doesn't focuses on his methods, but in the way he presents them, and the innacuracies on his science-facts, so you are arguing against something that is not there.

Originally Posted by Raspberry

I wish I had big boy underwear. But unfortunately my short girl boxers tend to have stuff like "I <3 Girl Pants" or "I'm with the band" or "GO BANANA'S!" on them.

asfjdkalsk;lkdjfa

Originally Posted by Hukif

... so you are arguing against something that is not there.

Welp, wouldn't be the first time.

Nevertheless, though to me it's obvious his assertions are not "super-scientific", I don't think that justifies the way he is being villainized. Like others have said in this topic, he just seems like someone who knows of a method that works for him, as well as many other people, and is inferring what he feels is a plausible explanation for why those methods work. We all make inferences, and 99% of us do not take the time to sit down and research the science behind every inference we make to see if we are right. So what if he's wrong regarding the details of why his method works? Big freakin deal. I don't see why everyone is so butt-hurt over it.

I get why people don't like salesmen, I understand some of the points made about the graphs, and though I don't really see it myself, I can understand why an attitude of "only I am right and all others are wrong" would be irritating. But honestly, what I think is really pissing people off is that, despite him not being the most lovable or knowledgeable person in the LD community, he has become very successful selling a method that, for all intensive purposes, is PROVEN (even if he doesn't fully understand how it works).

How easy is it to hate someone like that -- someone who only seems to half-know what he's talking about, but has been that successful?

To me, I'm not bothered by salesmanship. I don't care for it, but I am not bothered by it. I do not have a problem with someone trying to infer explanations that fit their experiences either. I take things with a grain of salt, keep what I like and discard the rest. No point in getting all frazzled about it. After reading some on the comments on this thread, and the mob-like mentality of it all...it's sort of disappointing.

But thats you and the other posters are others!
That, and you are doing exactly the same as the people here. Getting all frazzled about something irrelevant, like someone not liking someone else, considering your big-boy part-of-a-post before, that is. Oh and btw, SE clearly stated that he didn't want the mis-information to spread, so he wasn't angry at the dude being sucessful, but at lying while being, whether he was doing it on purpose or not.

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

But most of all, put on your big-boy underwear and stop whining. If you don't like his stuff, that's perfectly fine. Move on already. All this talk about taking down his website and etc is despicable...

This website is open to (and encourages) opposing viewpoints. In the on-topic forums, members are certainly more than welcome to voice their opinions pertaining to subjects and/or people surrounding lucid dreaming. I don't condone talk of attacking anyone's property, but if you don't like the anti-newport conversations going on in here, perhaps it is you who should "move on already."

Originally Posted by Hukif

That, and you are doing exactly the same as the people here. Getting all frazzled about something irrelevant, like someone not liking someone else, considering your big-boy part-of-a-post before, that is.

I wouldn't say I'm getting frazzled, but I see your point. Of course, now you find yourself in my position...being liable for accusations of "frazzlery" simply for pointing out the act in others.

Originally Posted by Hukif

...so he wasn't angry at the dude being sucessful, but at lying while being, whether he was doing it on purpose or not.

I'd say that lying implies he is intentionally misleading people, but I haven't yet read a good argument justifying that claim. If anything, he is just wrong about why his method works, despite the fact that it does work. I'd say there is just as good of a chance, or more so, that Nick believes what he is teaching is true. If that is the case, then at worst he is just misguided...not necessarily a charlatan.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

This website is open to (and encourages) opposing viewpoints. In the on-topic forums, members are certainly more than welcome to voice their opinions pertaining to subjects and/or people surrounding lucid dreaming. I don't condone talk of attacking anyone's property, but if you don't like the anti-newport conversations going on in here, perhaps it is you who should "move on already."

That doesn't sound like someone who is "encouraging" my opposing point of view. Nevertheless, this marks my third response in a 15-page discussion -- the "moving on comment" might be a little premature when applied to myself, but to others, not so much. Aside from some of the interesting biology posted by the OP, I hardly see this discussion amounting to much more than youthful angst and the accompanying desire to stand against something, anything.

But I digress