Thread: Stop Drop and Roll. Why Lucidology and Nicholas Newport are creating misinformation.

Hi Everyone.

I just wanted to put a warning out there for newbie lucid dreamers, and those of you who have perhaps come across the work of Nicholas Newport aka Lucidology.com or luciddreamtricks (on youtube).

It would seem that what we have here is an individual who is looking to promote themselves as an "expert" in the field of lucid dreaming to earn a quick buck
.
However, it's important to note that Mr Newport, has no qualifications, history or any clear experience to justify his choosing to call himself an expert.
It does get worse though, having watched all his videos, I would warn any newbie lucid dreamer, to IGNORE his suggestions. You will be wasting your time.

Most if not all the information is incorrect at best. At worst it is completely misleading.

Also bear in mind that his ultimate goal is to convince you of his expertise so that you will then part with your cash for stage 2 of the course.

He uses an array of marketing and advertising tricks to try to fool you.
He firstly, has created his own language for lucid dreaming.
Including methods, terminology and buzz words.
He's basically trying to reinvent the wheel, so he can then claim he invented the wheel and sell it to you.
What right has he to invade the subject of lucid dreaming, call himself an expert, and then confuse and mislead people by creating new terminology for methods and terms that are embeded in the culture of lucid dreaming?

Secondly, he trys to blind you with "science". I put science in quotation marks, because it is far from science. It reminds me of infomercials, and shampoo adverts where they say "here comes the science bit", then show you a load of meaningless graphs and numbers, all that make no sense, just to confuse you into thinking they know what they are talking about.
He DOSN'T know what he is talking about.

Let me take an example:

In his STOP DROP AND ROLL video
A ten minute long video, that can basically be summed up in one sentence: "if you're trying to have a wild, don't move too much"

But here are the huge flaws in his theory:

He claims something called Mind Body Independence
saying: mind body independence. The mind never knows precisely what the body is doing and vice versa.

He then trys to prove this by stating that hair grows on your body, and your mind dosn't know about it, or that digestive systems work without the mind being aware of it.

Kind of vaguely true on the surface, but he takes these and other similar points, then draws the conclusion that: The body will test to see if the mind is asleep by sending (here comes his own terminology) roll over signals.

A roll over signal apparently is any urge to move, or any pain in the body, when trying to go to sleep. These are "test signals" being sent by the body, to test if the brain is asleep (rather than just maybe, being uncomfortable.)

What he fails to address is: WHERE IS THIS DECISION BEING MADE?
Which part of the body, independent from the brain chooses to send a signal to test the brain? The spleen? the testicles? the heart?

Also he fails to recognise that the mind and body are NOT INDEPENDENT
there are a complete system in constant communication via the NERVOUS SYSTEM.

He also fails to recognise that Sleep Paralysis (which he claims is a choice made by the body when it thinks the mind is asleep) is actually as far as science knows, controlled from within the brain pons region of the brain.


There are endless contradictions to science, the science of lucidity, basic biology etc. etc. etc. throughout his videos.

If i had the time, I would like to break down each of his videos and point out the flaws and misinformation in them. Unfortunatly I do not have the time.
May I suggest it possibly a DreamViews project, that intelligent memebers of the forum, help educate the new members to the misinformation in these videos?

Anyhow, just a warning.
Don't believe everything you seen on YouTube.
Be extra wary when someone is trying to sell you something, and trying to blind you with made up science and lots of graphs, that if you take the time to look at, actually MAKE NO SENSE.

Lucidolgy.com may not be exactly a scam in the classic sense of the word.
But it is certainly hugely misleading, misinformation and bad for the subject of lucid dreaming. Its close enough to a scam for my tastes.

Be warned.

I agree. A lot of the stuff he preaches about doesn't make sense to me at all.

Hopefully not EVERYONE falls for it! =]

Originally Posted by Sentaku

I agree. A lot of the stuff he preaches about doesn't make sense to me at all.

Hopefully not EVERYONE falls for it! =]

I just think the guy is dangerous to the lucid dreaming community.

What he's basically doing is trying to create his own terminology, so that he then becomes "the expert", because people have to go to him to understand this new terminology. Not to mention all his methods being based on nonsense theories.

Unfortunatly, he has a real salesman way with him, and seems to be sucking a lot of people in.
I wish people were smarter, and stopped to think about what he was saying, or actually paused the videos and looked at the graphs critically... because if they did, they would realise, it really is just a bunch of lines and made up terms, showing you nothing whatsoever.
All his so called "science" is actually complete and utter nonsense he's made up.

I really think the community needs to stand up against this sort of thing.
Sooner or later we'll be overwhelmed with people who's first encounter with lucid dreaming, was through a virtual conman on YouTube.

It's bad for the subject and the community, and it makes me really angry.

While his "science" is off key, the method still works. He does use some common terms such as 'WILD' and his videos are neat, organized, and visual, which can be helpful for someone who does not benefit from our tutorials which are mostly just text.

Take Jeff777's tutorial for instance. It basically teaches the same technique, but is purely text. The videos have graphs and diagrams that allow LDers to visualize what he's saying.

I've had success with it and so have others. With new LDers, writing up a tutorial that says something simple like 'When you WILD, don't move much', they always have a lot of questions afterwards. Newport's videos are in depth and captivating.

I agree with everything you said about his flawed science, but if the method works, let people enjoy the videos.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

While his "science" is off key, the method still works. He does use some common terms such as 'WILD' and his videos are neat, organized, and visual, which can be helpful for someone who does not benefit from our tutorials which are mostly just text.

Take Jeff777's tutorial for instance. It basically teaches the same technique, but is purely text. The videos have graphs and diagrams that allow LDers to visualize what he's saying.

At least the text here is by people who are accountable to the community.
If something is wrong, or incorrect, people can come and share their information. No one here is trying to set themselves up as an expert, or trying to sell a course, like newport is.
As for his graphs... have you taken time to pause the videos and really look at them? they are meaningless, seriously, im not being silly, they are actually just random lines, with random made up terms. They tell you nothing. They serve only one purpose... to make him LOOK like he knows what he is talking about.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I've had success with it and so have others. With new LDers, writing up a tutorial that says something simple like 'When you WILD, don't move much', they always have a lot of questions afterwards. Newport's videos are in depth and captivating.

They are certainly not indepth, in fact they are quite the opposite, they are taking a simple idea, then streching it out over 10 minutes, and making claims that are simply false. Sorry i really can't agree with you on this.
Captivating? only in the same way that an infomercial is captivating.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I agree with everything you said about his flawed science, but if the method works, let people enjoy the videos.

Because he is misinforming people, in order to eventually get them to buy his course.
I appreciate you are trying to be nice about it, but yes maybe small parts of what he says have some truth in them... but does that excuse all the false, untrue information?

I would prefer that the subject I love be taught by intelligent, caring people who genuinelly want to share information. Not just cash in.

I just watched his videos the other day. They are terrible. As I said in the other thread, I keep waiting for him to throw in a free Shamwow. In general, I hate to criticize anything that encourages people to lucid dream. His advice, however, is terrible. I agree with you 100% Spaceexplorer.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

While his "science" is off key, the method still works. He does use some common terms such as 'WILD' and his videos are neat, organized, and visual, which can be helpful for someone who does not benefit from our tutorials which are mostly just text.

Take Jeff777's tutorial for instance. It basically teaches the same technique, but is purely text. The videos have graphs and diagrams that allow LDers to visualize what he's saying.

I've had success with it and so have others. With new LDers, writing up a tutorial that says something simple like 'When you WILD, don't move much', they always have a lot of questions afterwards. Newport's videos are in depth and captivating.

I agree with everything you said about his flawed science, but if the method works, let people enjoy the videos.

are you trying to say jeff's wall of text isn't in depth?

>_> Nicholas is dumb imo.

I don't know why but i can't watch these videos at all...

They feel so...so...pseudo-real...

He says he got all his information from reading books and taking his methods from there to give them to you. Why would you pay someone to spew summarized crap that they read that doesn't even make a whole lot of sense in the first place?

I agree 100% and think that this should be stickied in the newbie zone.

Spaceexplorer is right- as a lucid dreaming community we should so our best to warn those getting into the topic before they waste time, become misinformed and confused about topics like SP, and more importantly lose motivation or interest or belief in lucid dreaming due to such incredibly terrible videos.

O.o, seriously? I never watched these videos but it already sounds bad...
I like the idea of going through the videos and killing hte myths, didn't we have a myth buster team somewhere in LD general discussion?

I watched the stop drop and roll video. I think only that one, can't be completely sure though.

What I liked was that at the beginning of the video he said that when your body sends/receives a roll over signal, you should do your damnedest to resist it. Then he spends the rest of the video saying that you have to give in to it two or three times.

And he finished it off with the obligatory 'What everyone else says is wrong and is LIES LIES LIES! Only I know the truth!'

Massive ass of a man he is.

Hmm, I too watched only the stop drop and roll video from him. I thought it was OK, although somewhat confusing at points and seemingly contradictory sometimes. I do think there is some truth to the whole idea of "roll over signals," I haven't had that much experience with it myself but a lot of threads I've read related to WILD and dream re-entry seem to at least mention this, if not make a big point of it. I'll be more wary with his material if I ever watch more, though.

I watched like 5-6 videos, and to tell the truth i thought he actually knows what he is talking about.
I'm thinking that a way to counter his videos is for someone to make video responses, explaining how wrong he is. One for one video.

But what does it matter if his science is wrong so long as it gets people lucid?

Originally Posted by seriouscentaur

But what does it matter if his science is wrong so long as it gets people lucid?

Hmm,
Dangerous way of thinking that.

It's a bit like saying... Oh, what's the problem with building a house on quicksand as long a it keeps the rain off your head.

The answer to your question is: Strong foundations.

See, the way i'm seeing all this is, when I was a kid and first discovered lucid dreaming (or realised it was a real subject), I was lucky enough to discover the work of Laberge. Now, If i was a kid now, there would be the risk I'd discover this clown, and mistake his salesman confidence for genuine knowledge.

He would have screwed me over completely, i'd have built my knowledge on lies. Eventually sooner or later, It'd crumble around me.

Would you rather your knowledge be based on fact or fiction?

If you care about the subject, as I do, then do you want new people discovering the subject to be learning well, or being misinformed?

The only way science and knowldge progresses is through being critical and thoughtful in our approach. How can new discoverys be made, if the foundations of your learning are based on misinformation?

This guy, has perhaps 1% of truth and 99% misinformation.
Do the maths... is that a good deal?
Do you want to be putting in a 100% effort into someone who is only teaching 1% truth? that means 99% of your effort is being spent learning nonsense.

Also do you want to try and explain lucid dreaming to someone, using this guys ideas, and then, because the person has half a brain they point out that 99% of what you are saying is nonsense?

I don't get it though... what about lucid dreaming is so truth-based anyway? Isn't it subjective? (Except for scientific facts about sleep cycles and what not.)

Oh I didn't realize. What could he possibly teach that would be so bad though? Isn't just hyping LDing up a good thing, since then it's on your mind more and you're more likely to do it?

Originally Posted by seriouscentaur

Oh I didn't realize. What could he possibly teach that would be so bad though? Isn't just hyping LDing up a good thing, since then it's on your mind more and you're more likely to do it?

This is my normal feeling with videos like this. When it comes down to it, the ability to lucid dreaming is mostly based on firsthand experience and practice. I normally support anything that motivates people to try.

My problem with the videos is that they present false information and claim it is a summary of all the information out there. The presenter says, "Don't read all these books on lucid dreaming. I'll just sum it up for you for four easy payments of $19.95." Then he proceeds to present crap he just made up.

It is one thing to describe your personal system for becoming lucid. We all have quirky things that work for us as individuals. It is another to make it seem like it is a summary of accepted knowledge.

I don't want to dis the guy too much. I'm glad he is spreading the word about lucid dreaming. I also know how hard it is to simplify this subject. You have to make your advice practical, without oversimplifying it to the point of it becoming false. I wonder if he has an account on DV. I would like to hear his side. I feel bad having everyone attack him.

Yeah it's a form of dishonesty to claim to be an expert in a particular field and then go on to state your own ideas and opinions in a way that suggests they are scientifically-backed facts, eg by speaking authoritatively and presenting meaningless graphs. I'd say the guy has experienced lucid dreaming sure, but he's no more knowledgeable than most of our regular DV members. He's just putting on a teachers cap and speaking in a convincing sounding manner so that newbies will think he's the lucid guru.

Reminds me of an evangelist.

Should definitely sticky this.

Good thread monkey

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

However, it's important to note that Mr Newport, has no qualifications, history or any clear experience to justify his choosing to call himself an expert.

Well, he is the founder and admin of the saltcube website, with thousands of posts on the topic, which is qualification enough for me. He used to call himself Matt Jones, but it's the same guy (if you look up his old posts on saltcube, they all changed from Matt to Nick). I'm not quite sure what other qualification you would expect someone to have to call himself an expert on lucid dreaming.

On the topic of those videos, I can partly see what you mean, but I would not assume that he is just out for a scam. He obviously has found a way to induce LDs that works very well for him, and he thinks that it will work well for others too.

Nobody is denying that he is trying to make money off his video series (lucidology 102), but the videos on youtube are free of charge and, taken with a grain of salt, they are just as good a start into the topic as any other medium. Still beats not having any idea of how to induce LDs at all. As I see it, he is basically just strongly promoting WBTB, which is a fine thing to do for beginners. Also, using a timer to keep you on the threshold of sleep without having to use visualization is not the worst thing to get your feet wet. After a while you should get annoyed enough by this to just learn WILDing without external devices, but by then you may at least have the motivation it takes to learn it.

Anyone who is really interested in LDing should be intelligent enough not to trust one source of information only, but rather keep on searching the internet and bookstores for different viewpoints and angles to the topic (like this forum or the LaBerge books).


However, I agree that not all he says should be taken as the one and only truth. It seems that some of the information he provides there is just to give some (seemingly) logical explanation and fill some gaps in order to make the whole program seem more coherent.

Let's just not bash him too hard. I used to frequent the saltcube website before I found DV, and some of the information there even helped me to some of my earlier experiences. Also, Nick always seemed to be helpful to anyone asking questions on the forum, thereby basically giving away all the information in the videos for free. Nowadays saltcube has gotten kinda boring, but thats another story.


Again, anyone who has a sincere interest in the topic (or in any topic, fwiw) should be smart enough to seek out as many information from all kinds of sources and get his or her own picture. As for some youtube kiddies who are looking for a short thrill and could slightly be mislead by those video...well, what can I say, I couldnt care less about them.



Just my 0.02$

Originally Posted by lemmefly

As for some youtube kiddies who are looking for a short thrill and could slightly be mislead by those video...well, what can I say, I couldnt care less about them.

Do you mind if I ask why you couldn't care less about these people?

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

Do you mind if I ask why you couldn't care less about these people?

I dont mind.

Anyone who is sincerely interested in lucid dreaming and wants to learn the skillset involved deserves my respect and should get all the help in the world.

As for these halfhearted early quitters ("I have tried to LD for almost 3 days now and still no success, this is all fake, I think i'm gonna quit" etc.) - you guys know who you are - they are the people I am talking about.

If you dont really want this and put effort into it, it's just not gonna work out for you, thats why I couldnt care less for these people (regarding LD of course, I'm not some kind of misanthrope).

Hope that clears it up.

I watched the video, and even with no sound (my girlfriend is asleep) it was actually pretty good. Who cares if he uses his own language to describe it? I personally get annoyed when people enshrine Laberge's language like it is the definitive way to describe lucid dreaming. WBTB, WILD, etc... all of that was just laberge doing exactly what you accuse Newport of doing and he is making much more than just a quick buck off of the whole thing. As far as I can tell, what he is doing is absolutely no different than what goes on at this site, except maybe that he makes pretty professional looking videos to accompany his tutorials; something some of the members here should start considering to get us a little more face time with the public.

I'd also like to know how many of you that are bashing the videos as 'made up crap' have read Jeff777's tutorial that presents almost identical info as the stop drop and roll video. Jeff, I think these people just called your stuff crap.

Originally Posted by lemmefly

Hope that clears it up.

Yep, it does thanks