Thread: How to counter skeptics' statements on Astral Projection?

Hukif, these experiences you have had, like not existing, being one with the universe, having no body, etc. are very interesting experiences. You don't have to try to explain not existing, I know what you are talking about. When you didn't exist, what did exist? Did anything exist? I have experienced different things that could be describes as not existing, like nothing existed but impersonal awareness. Or everything existed except for me, but then somehow I was witnessing so something of 'me' had to exist. But I also would not call these astral projection, I don't know what I would call them, maybe a clear light dream or dream of clarity? But have you had an experience that some would call astral projecting? That would be very relevant and interesting to hear about.

I hope I am not coming across as insulting either, if so, don't take it personally, don't ever take anything personally. I think that is a common perception in these issues is that the other opinion is coming off as insulting. I know I sometimes think the skeptics are being insulting, but I am used to it and now understand that in most cases it is just a difference of opinion that is mistaken for insulting. I am not discounting your experiences, I am questioning them in order to relate to some of my experiences.

Your take on how a skeptic IS open minded is true ideally, and it is refreshing that you take this stance. What you perceive as maybe my close-mindedness about not considering that it is all in my head is actually not true. I have considered it for years, I have tested it, and as my skill got better I became confident in what I am experiencing. Believe me, I don't want to deceive myself and then at the end of my life to find that I have been deluded my whole life. You know what I mean? I am open to different possibilities and explanations, and I remain skeptical but considering both sides until I am sure. Once I am sure, and my experiences have passed my tests, I am confident in them. All I am doing is stating the truth of how I feel.

I also agree with Ketsumuye about that there is a link between dreams and astral projection etc. and this does lend a little confusion to the debate and makes both views somewhat correct. Also of importance is the concept of 'mind' and how we define it. It IS a subjective concept. If it is all in our mind, what does that mean? And just as when someone falls in love or wins a poker hand or listens to one's favorite song there are brain chemical reactions, endorphins and dopamines bonding to receptors, does that reduce love and satisfaction to material causes or material effects? THis is all besides the point and I am being rhetorical. Just something to think about and not really debate about.

On the not-existing, there was a fleeting "sense", of course not a normal one, that is all there was to it, I could not feel anything, not even darkness was present as I was incapable of understanding/experiencing it, in fact I lost lucidity and all sense of time until I was woken up by family.

And on AP, that depends. I hear some use AP to refer to kinds of OBE, in which case there is one time where I was suddenly floating and seeing my body from abovee (Non-lucid), the whole room was somewhat misty and I had this weird feeling all over me, started flying until I reached the roof and then looked around, saw two spheres, one red and another white one, thought they were spirits or something and panicked for some reason, that took me back to my bed/body and woke up after that.

Another one, that is unlike OBE, would be the time when a "psychology teacher" (It was a strange DC, and this one is a lucid) started asking stuff about life, I got bored of it and was about to leave when he stopped me and said something about life again, I laughed a bit and said it didn't matter since I was dreaming, he just laughed too and I left. Flew up to another building and tried to teleport, but was unable to.
The man shows up again and tells me I can't leave just like that, I look back at him and ask him if that means my body is dead "Not quite" he says, then starts explaining stuff about AP, he talks more about life and moves more energy around him, some people appear (Ah, so that's why I can't teleport) I think and then infect the surroundings with my energy, the man seems surprised and asks me what I'm doing, think there was also a fight with the man before waking myself up because I could hear the alarm, but memory fails me...

Both of these, felt different from many lucids, but even so none of them compares to my real obsession, which is dream fighting. Also, in both it felt more like an energy body than a normal dream body, which I'm more accustomed to, and both were "ethereal" to name it something, the whole setting was strange.

Both of these, felt different from many lucids, but even so none of them compares to my real obsession, which is dream fighting. Also, in both it felt more like an energy body than a normal dream body, which I'm more accustomed to, and both were "ethereal" to name it something, the whole setting was strange.

Interesting. I cannot judge whether or not I would call these AP or not, although to me the first one sounds similar to one. If you got better at it and explored it then maybe it would be clearer. BTW, stay away from the red light, go to the white light.
Thanks for sharing. The different feeling in the body (dream body/ethereal body) could be significant. As to whether or not it is all in the brain and does not exist in any way outside of that, I do not feel like debating right now. Right now it isn't important to me. The important thing is that a new class of experience is available and as to how you define it or believe it is unimportant. But usually I do like to debate it, I don't know what is up with me. I just woke up from a nap where Obama told me Osama was dead and I told him that Osama had been dead for a while now, like many years and Obama thought "Oh shit, how did you know that?" but outwardly he just chuckled and changed the subject.

Oh I did explore AP and OBE a few years back, the experiences were not enough for me to consider them as anything more than lucids, so I kept at it. Though trying to OBE made me lose my ability to reach SP, now I can WILD without SP lol
Don't worry about debating, I'm not one to do that unless it feels like people are trying to shove anything down, which is what I felt in first page with the "It doesn't matters what they say".
Also, that experience sounds like so much fun, just so much...

i never know if i am paralyzed or not because i don't try to move.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

What mindgames is saying about how any experience can be a creation of the brain is a good point, and logically very sound, however it reminds me of when making love to a woman and you ask her if she has cummed and she responds "I think so". This shows that not only did she not reach an orgasm, she has never had an orgasm and does not know what one is first hand. She might believe she had an orgasm, but we know that she hasn't.

People who haven't AP'ed = a woman who has never orgasmed

By the way, when I said, "What they say doesn't matter," what I mean by, "they" is "everyone." If you experience a full blown OBE for yourself, you will believe it 100%, and no one can change your mind.

There is no need to convince skeptics. If they are interested, they should try it.

Here's a secret about me and AP: I practiced AP and Remote Viewing for about 20 to 40 hours a week for a year, and I was still skeptical. I think it was 1999. A year later, I was still unconvinced, still skeptical, even though I did find evidence for it. I really had evidence for what I call a partial OBE. I described my friend's car, front yard, and house with accuracy that is beyond coincidence.

Years later, I read Astral Projection for Beginners and had a full blown OBE.

Here is some of my own personal evidence (which will not work for you, you have to get your own).

I saw in my OBE a hammered copper and bronze metal sculpture. It was a relief sculpture picturing a whale smashing a wooden boat. The whalers were flying through the air. The picture was done inside a circle. I drew it on a piece of paper. The next day, I went into town, and wandered into a touristy store, and saw a piece of art on the wall made of dyed cloth, elaborately done.

The picture was a whale smashing a wooden boat with whalers flying through the air. It even had stylized waves, and was inside a circle. The difference was what it was made out of, and the colors.

This finally convinced me 100% that astral projection is real, but it took me over a decade to be convinced. (The other thing that convinced me is that it felt exactly like real life, except my body felt ghostlike. I walked through a closed screen door without noticing.)

You think you're a skeptic?

I'm a fucking skeptic.

But, if I am skeptical, yet curious about something, I try it, and I suggest you do the same.

"He who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the one doing it."
-Popeye

I have had many projections in the past six months and from my experience I am (for right now) going to say it's just a type of lucid dream, more spacific, a type of WILD. I am projecting out of body with all the sensations people discribe. I can not tell any difference (besides actually projecting) that are any different from a lucid dream. The must be dreams. BUT... I do have an experiment waiting to happen. My girlfriend has placed a piece of paper with a word on it on top of a bookshelf in my room. I don't know what the word is. So on my next OBE I will fly up and read the word. If I get the word right Astral projection will take place in real life, if I get it wrong then these things are just dreams. Also... It is an out of body experience because you experience comming out of your body ( it really happens, I don't care what reality you are in. Also the fact that everyone gauges these experiences the same means that our minds are far more complex that anyone can imagine. Weather it is reality or dream reality

WIR, I don't know of anyone that has successfully pulled off a word trick like you described. Some people have been able to pull off colors successfully... just keep in mind that when you are OBE/APing you are essentially not using your physical eyes or physical body and can't expect everything to see/feel the same. We tend to experience things out of body via those 5 physical senses (which our mind creates) because that's all we're familiar with in waking life. (It's very possible we experience much more with many different senses and simply can't "process" it all in our physical brains when we return.)

If dogs see in black and white and spiders have 8 eyes, then being out of body isn't going to give you the same "senses" as you have while awake. Rather, when you come back to waking life, our brain needs to reinterpret all our dreaming/APing expeirences in the limited fashion it can... one that we're able to comprehend with our 5 physical senses. (As well as our 6th, psychic sense, for some.)

IMHO, this is one of many reasons we have issues recalling our dreams or why these kinds of experiments don't always prove to be very successful.

-K

You kinda just kicked a hole in my boat. But very good point.

I'm still going to give it a try.

I would encourage you to experiment as much as possible.

I just thought I'd give you insight based on my experience. I do not believe it impossible to successfully accomplish such a task, I just thought I'd let you know what you're dealing with.

-K

If one thinks the spirit lives beyond death AP is a very likely possibility! Many people however do not think we survive death. It is really what you think and what you can find out for yourself. You will NEVER convince a skeptic- almost impossible, save your energy! You do not need to defend or counter anything to skeptics, what they think they are entitled to think. Skeptics do not have the right to point out how ignorant and lacking in intelligence some one is because they do not see it their way just as the person of a mystical bent should not be condescending. Make up your own mind! I would also suggest you be careful who you trust with this part of your life. Some interests we are better keeping fairly private!

Nomad, I suggest writting what you mean instead of that kind of thing, that would be like me coming to the thread and saying "Don't bother, AP is impossible anyway" not nice, not nice. Oh well, problem solved after 3 pages.

Originally Posted by MindGames

So what you're saying is basically that Astral Projection is a lucid dream in which you have heightened awareness. Where exactly does this supernatural plane come into play here?

If you don't mind my interjecting into the conversation....When I first astral projected 15 years ago, I tried to understand what was happening, rather than making assumptions about higher planes or just getting off on the experience. Based on my experiments, I concluded that there was no 'astral' matter, that I was just manipulating my internal map of where 'I am'. So my view was the same as what yours appears to be.

Then about 3 years ago, I started getting a lot of accurate premonitions in dreams. I'd had some of these before, and had explained them away as coincidences, extrapolation from previous experience, etc. But it got to where I was getting them pretty much every night, in ways that I could objectively demonstrate. Then these evolved beyond mere predictions, and I had a few that produced miraculous events in waking life. Unlike with the premonitions, I chose to just accept those at face value, because I didn't want to risk the consequences of an escalating series of 'proofs'. I also had a fair number of experiences where my thoughts influenced other people's dreams, and vice versa, in a verifiable manner. Now, for the past several months, all of this has mostly stopped, and I'm back to having 'normal' vivid dreams every night.

Revisiting the 'astral projection' issue, I see that my dismissal of it as 'all in my head' was not actually rational based on the information I had. Yes, I was correct that moving my 'astral' body involved manipulating a mental model of where my body was. But it doesn't follow that something being a mental model makes it 'unreal' in an astral sense. That would be an assumption, not supported by evidence. Occam's razor doesn't help here, because we don't actually have a scientific understanding of imagination that accounts for it in terms of electromagnetics and whatnot. For example, what is yellow? It is not a wavelength of light, it is mapped to a range of wavelengths in the mind. A fair amount is understood about how that mapping works, in terms of the design of the eye and the brain. But its just handwaving to say that such an explanation adequately accounts for the experience of 'yellow', because the experience of the color itself, in imagination, is actually not understood.

More generally, Occam's razor does not say anything about the likelihood of astral realms or the like, because human experience isn't actually adequately explained by current ideas about the 'physical' realm. The 'simplest' explanation for astral phenomena may involve finer states of matter or it might not. But we can't say, because we lack even the barest sketch of a real theory in either case.

I've continued to speculate that there is actually no 'astral' matter, and that the paranormal experiences that I've had can be explained in terms of unknown non-local interactions involving 'ordinary' matter. This is speculation though, and at the moment I'm leaning slightly towards there being astral matter.

In regards to the experience of 'astral projection', I don't think it can realistically be characterized as an especially vivid lucid dream. I can't prove that - and unlike my premonitions and poltergeist-type experiences, I have no objective evidence at all. But if you astrally project, I think you have to agree that there's an element there that's quite different. Many of my 'lucid' dreams have been as vivid as waking life, with my visual field being the same except for degraded peripheral vision. But those dreams are still not very much like the 'astral projection' experience. Astral projection involves moving something that isn't moved during those other dreams. I can't prove that, because I know it from feeling it move, and I can't make you know what I can feel, or demonstrate it in a scientifically rigorous manner. But that doesn't make what I am aware of utterly pretend or untrustworthy either.

Originally Posted by MindGames

I mean, of course you can access phenomenal and breath-taking states of mind from within a lucid dream. But that is in no way supernatural, and it doesn't give you access to any paranormal abilities. Nor does it take you to another 'plane of existence' any more than a lucid dream does so. It's simply a creation maintained within your own mind. That means that any 'entities' that you encounter on any such 'plane' are simply elaborate dream characters.

I share your skepticism that 'astral' experience can tell a person very much about most things. That's one reason why I've never pursued such experiences, and have no desire to have more besides the few I had. And the 'characters' in my dreams, as far as I know, are never anything 'more' than dream characters, whatever that may mean exactly. But I do experience a formless entity which I know is not merely a resident of my imagination, because it can do stuff outside of my imagination. I don't control it, so I can't prove its existence in a scientific manner by setting up repeatable experiments. But ask it a question, if you want to, about something of philosophical importance to you that you are trying to understand, and it will answer you. If it answers you in a dream tonight and you don't understand the answer, post your answer or send me a private message and I think I can probably help interpret it for you.

Originally Posted by MindGames

Rational, understandably skeptical individuals don't deserve to be taken seriously? Mind you, I once used to believe in this kind of stuff until I pulled my head out of my ass and accepted that magical lands of infinite spiritual orgasm don't really exist. There is absolutely no rational basis to believe in this kind of stuff. The only reasonable explanation is that you're simply having lucid dreams.

We don't hate you for believing in Astral Projection and other metaphysical phenomena. We just think it's silly because it's so absurd and childish. There are much, much more valid explanations for what you guys claim you are experiencing. So until you or anyone else provides some good evidence that what you are experiencing is not in fact a lucid dream or any other known psychological phenomenon, perhaps you should consider, just for a second, that what you're experiencing might not actually be what you want it so much to be.

Isn't that what they say about lucid dreaming?...

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Then about 3 years ago, I started getting a lot of accurate premonitions in dreams. I'd had some of these before, and had explained them away as coincidences, extrapolation from previous experience, etc. But it got to where I was getting them pretty much every night, in ways that I could objectively demonstrate. Then these evolved beyond mere predictions, and I had a few that produced miraculous events in waking life. Unlike with the premonitions, I chose to just accept those at face value, because I didn't want to risk the consequences of an escalating series of 'proofs'. I also had a fair number of experiences where my thoughts influenced other people's dreams, and vice versa, in a verifiable manner. Now, for the past several months, all of this has mostly stopped, and I'm back to having 'normal' vivid dreams every night.

If astral projection is so verifiable, then why has it failed to be verified in the past? Is there something special about your 'astral' experiences? Are you able to induce these experiences again in a testable manner? Also, keep in mind that your results may have been skewed by confirmation bias and that they may in part be the result of random chance. It's relatively easy to influence people's dreams. Our subconscious minds pick up on that stuff all the time when we interact with other people. And last, unfortunately, I cannot take one person's experiences as proof of the existence of projection onto an astral plane. These results have to be shared among all astral projectors (and if they are, then this begs the question, if these phenomena are so common, why can't you prove it?). I don't mean to offend, but there is also a chance that you are delusional.

Revisiting the 'astral projection' issue, I see that my dismissal of it as 'all in my head' was not actually rational based on the information I had. Yes, I was correct that moving my 'astral' body involved manipulating a mental model of where my body was. But it doesn't follow that something being a mental model makes it 'unreal' in an astral sense.

Actually, on the contrary, there is no reason to believe that this is taking place on an astral plane. If your brain is completely capable of "manipulating a mental model" of where your body is, in addition to creating the sensory input of those experiences, then why would you go to the length of assuming it is taking place on the astral? Your brain is completely capable of producing any range of experiences, as I have repeatedly explained on this thread.

As for your reference to Occam's razor, it is the sole reason why you should not believe in an astral plane. If there is a simpler model that explains your experiences in their entirety (the phenomenon of lucid dreaming), then it is unnecessary and flawed to go the extra step and assert that an astral plane exists. Sure, we don't know everything about how the imagination works, but that doesn't mean we can jump to conclusions or simply refuse to make a conclusion. We don't know everything about the brain, but we do have good, scientifically supported paradigms that we can use to explain these types of experiences.

More generally, Occam's razor does not say anything about the likelihood of astral realms or the like, because human experience isn't actually adequately explained by current ideas about the 'physical' realm. The 'simplest' explanation for astral phenomena may involve finer states of matter or it might not. But we can't say, because we lack even the barest sketch of a real theory in either case.

No, because Occam's razor is a principle. It wasn't created to describe the likelihood of astral realms. However, when we apply that principle, the logical conclusion is that these experiences are simply lucid dreams. No need for astral bullshit. It is fallacious to assume that an astral plane exists in the first place, since a simpler model using lucid dreams to explain your experiences can be used just fine.

I've continued to speculate that there is actually no 'astral' matter, and that the paranormal experiences that I've had can be explained in terms of unknown non-local interactions involving 'ordinary' matter. This is speculation though, and at the moment I'm leaning slightly towards there being astral matter.

Speculation on what the astral plane consists of, based on speculation that the astral plane actually exists.

In regards to the experience of 'astral projection', I don't think it can realistically be characterized as an especially vivid lucid dream. I can't prove that - and unlike my premonitions and poltergeist-type experiences, I have no objective evidence at all. But if you astrally project, I think you have to agree that there's an element there that's quite different. Many of my 'lucid' dreams have been as vivid as waking life, with my visual field being the same except for degraded peripheral vision. But those dreams are still not very much like the 'astral projection' experience. Astral projection involves moving something that isn't moved during those other dreams. I can't prove that, because I know it from feeling it move, and I can't make you know what I can feel, or demonstrate it in a scientifically rigorous manner. But that doesn't make what I am aware of utterly pretend or untrustworthy either.

How do you know that this 'extra element' isn't simply created by your mind? We can go round and round about how there's some different, special element present in astral projection, but there's always the distinct possibility that this is simply your mind's representation of astral projection. You have no grounds to believe that there is an astral or external plane involved, other than basing this belief on profoundly convincing subjective experiences. As I have re-reiterated before, your mind can create any array of experiences, and add any extra 'element' or 'feel' to whatever you're experiencing.

I share your skepticism that 'astral' experience can tell a person very much about most things.

When did I ever say this? Lucid dreams can certainly be profound and can reveal quite a lot of useful, subconsciously retained information.

And the 'characters' in my dreams, as far as I know, are never anything 'more' than dream characters, whatever that may mean exactly.

Cool. I believe there's a definition of DC somewhere on this site; essentially, they are entities created by your subconscious mind.

But I do experience a formless entity which I know is not merely a resident of my imagination, because it can do stuff outside of my imagination. I don't control it, so I can't prove its existence in a scientific manner by setting up repeatable experiments. But ask it a question, if you want to, about something of philosophical importance to you that you are trying to understand, and it will answer you. If it answers you in a dream tonight and you don't understand the answer, post your answer or send me a private message and I think I can probably help interpret it for you.

It can do stuff outside of your imagination? Really, now? You're going to have a tough time convincing me of that. I bet if I had a lucid dream tonight I could create a formless DC that I could program to do things that are seemingly outside of my imagination. Shit, it's not unreasonable that your neurons can fire off randomly to create new thoughts and concepts.

I don't think that I'll be asking any philosophical questions tonight, bud. I am fully aware of my subconscious brain's power to reveal profound, cryptic information. How about you prove astral projection first?

Originally Posted by Codename

Isn't that what they say about lucid dreaming?...

Who? As far as I'm concerned, lucid dreaming has been experimentally proven, so if anybody denies the existence of lucid dreaming, they're just being ignorant. It's not unreasonable that we can become conscious in our dreams (which we know exist because everybody has them).

A lot of people believe it exists, but everyone has their own definition on what it is and what causes it.

MindGames, I know this will be completely off topic, but because I REALLY want to get a better idea about the way you think and view the world in general, do you view things like the story of 9/11 as a big fucking lie and people like the President as simply a puppet for the Illuminati or do you believe people that entertain these notions as well are equally as whack?

I would contend for many of us it's our distrust of many of our so-called "official" sources of information that help form many of our opinions. Once you believe we're being lied to constantly in order to keep us repressed as a species, you also begin to see why the few in power are invested in preventing the mnid-freeing substances (weed, mushrooms, other naturally growing plants), and mind-freeing experiences (OBE/AP, among others) from being understood and embraced in the mainstream.

Enlightenment isn't good for business.

-K

Originally Posted by WhatsReal

You kinda just kicked a hole in my boat. But very good point.

I'm still going to give it a try.

He's not blowing a hole in your boat, he is setting up a scenario where you cannot disprove astral projection. Its absurd really. If you came back and said you floated above your cabinet and didn't get the right word he would have said well you weren't looking with your physical eyes so your mind yada yada yada. If you are really leaving your body it would be an easy thing to prove, yet it hasn't been, so that is why I am skeptical. I'd love for it to happen and be real, but it would have been proven by now.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

MindGames, I know this will be completely off topic, but because I REALLY want to get a better idea about the way you think and view the world in general, do you view things like the story of 9/11 as a big fucking lie and people like the President as simply a puppet for the Illuminati or do you believe people that entertain these notions as well are equally as whack?

I would contend for many of us it's our distrust of many of our so-called "official" sources of information that help form many of our opinions. Once you believe we're being lied to constantly in order to keep us repressed as a species, you also begin to see why the few in power are invested in preventing the mnid-freeing substances (weed, mushrooms, other naturally growing plants), and mind-freeing experiences (OBE/AP, among others) from being understood and embraced in the mainstream.

Enlightenment isn't good for business.

-K

Seriously? This is one of the main reasons why I usually don't even bother with the BD forum. Just because the government outlaws your dearly held "mind-freeing" psychedelics, that doesn't mean they're out to fucking get you. Grow up.

Don't take it personally; but I find your mindset to be utterly ridiculous. You can eat magic mushrooms all day and nobody will care. Nobody's trying to enslave your mind by taking your drugs away from you. Mind-altering drugs are outlawed because they aren't conducive to intellectual progress. If you would rather not be a productive member of society, then by all means, continue to drop shrooms in your living room and fantasize about magical lands of psychedelic bliss. But don't expect to be taken seriously when you start expressing your paranoia over the government's scheme to enslave mankind by preventing us all from tripping balls on acid.

HAHAHA. You thought my comment even warranted a face palm, Picard no less. How delightfully ironic.

Just because the government outlaws your dearly held "mind-freeing" psychedelics, that doesn't mean they're out to fucking get you.

Way to simplify and skew an idea that has taken years of intense research and study. There's less of a connection between those two ideas then I intended there to be, anyway.

I've long since accepted people don't take us seriously. You dodging both my questions to ridicule my interest in psychedelics (which I only meant to mention in passing) frustrates me.

You should do some scientific research on the effects of psychedelics. I'm not, "tripping balls" all day every day, but shrooms are WAY more of an enlightening and life changing experience than getting drunk ever will be. I'm just sayin'

The comedian and entertainer, George Carlin called them, "Values Changing Drugs." (You'll never look at the world the same again.) The late Bill Hicks said taking shrooms was like applying a squeegee to your third eye. Joe Roegan, the host from Fear Factor, discussed how the world unraveled because of where these naturally growing substances took him in his mind both in and out of body. Simply put, all these things do is make you realize that every rule, law, and system is imaginary and there really are no rules or rights. Discovering and understanding there are only a few in power that control the entire world isn't rocket science if you do a little bit of research. All 3 of these men among numerous others displayed their distaste for the elite few in power who were controlling the mindless masses. They did it because it's fact, not because it's some sorta crazy science-fiction hokey pokey.

You don't have to believe any of this shit man... buy ya know, for the sake of debate, it might be better to address the questions asked rather than facepalm and throw out red herrings in the form of insults. You're debasing your own intelligence as much as you claim mine already is by taking these ideas and over simplifying them. It's honestly, very, VERY clear you know nothing about these topics by your almost hostile reaction to me bringing them up in an innocent light. We can debate about dreams and the afterlife all day till we're blue in the face, but there's plenty of meat and potatoes, "evidence" when it comes to who is really running the country and most of the world.

-K

P.S.

Have you smoked pot or done shrooms before? I seriously hope you're talking about things you've experienced if you're going to deliver *that* level of ridicule against them.

P.P.S. Why is that non-"druggies" think that if we tried shrooms once we're tripping balls in our room 24/7 and not being productive members of society otherwise? You have a fucking experience. You go, "Ohhh... okay!" And then you come back and talk about it. Pretty simple formula.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

I've long since accepted people don't take us seriously. You dodging both my questions to ridicule my interest in psychedelics (which I only meant to mention in passing) frustrates me.

Lol, dodging questions? The questions posed in your last post were a fucking joke. Of course I don't believe the government's involved in some 'Illuminati'-controlled conspiracy. No need to "dodge" a ridiculous question like that; I simply didn't answer it and instead focused on how ridiculous you sound.

You should do some scientific research on the effects of psychedelics. I'm not, "tripping balls" all day every day, but shrooms are WAY more of an enlightening and life changing experience than getting drunk ever will be. I'm just sayin'

Psychedelics. They make you trip balls and taste colors. I'd hardly call that an "enlightening" experience as opposed to a recreational one. Regardless of the emotional profoundness of the experience, the government isn't trying to enslave your mind by outlawing shrooms.

The comedian and entertainer, George Carlin called them, "Values Changing Drugs." (You'll never look at the world the same again.) The late Bill Hicks said taking shrooms was like applying a squeegee to your third eye. Joe Roegan, the host from Fear Factor, discussed how the world unraveled because of where these naturally growing substances took him in his mind both in and out of body. Simply put, all these things do is make you realize that every rule, law, and system is imaginary and there really are no rules or rights. Discovering and understanding there are only a few in power that control the entire world isn't rocket science if you do a little bit of research. All 3 of these men among numerous others displayed their distaste for the elite few in power who were controlling the mindless masses. They did it because it's fact, not because it's some sorta crazy science-fiction hokey pokey.

Yes, there are a relatively few number of greedy people in power. They call most of the shots. I don't need to drop acid to realize that. However, we do have rules in society for a reason. We need them to maintain a stable society and continue our productive growth. If there were no law and order, anybody could get away with raping, killing and stealing. If there were no legal system in place, there would be nobody to call if somebody kidnapped your daughter. Would you want that?

You don't have to believe any of this shit man... buy ya know, for the sake of debate, it might be better to address the questions asked rather than facepalm and throw out red herrings in the form of insults. You're debasing your own intelligence as much as you claim mine already is by taking these ideas and over simplifying them.

What questions? The questions about whether or not I believe in the Illuminati? I can't even take you seriously when you ask those kinds of questions. Anyway, I think the answer is already apparent.

It's honestly, very, VERY clear you know nothing about these topics by your almost hostile reaction to me bringing them up in an innocent light. We can debate about dreams and the afterlife all day till we're blue in the face, but there's plenty of meat and potatoes, "evidence" when it comes to who is really running the country and most of the world.

I may have been blunt in responding to your last post, but your last post sounded fucking ridiculous. I offer my condolences if I offended. That aside, there is no conspiracy in place to enslave the masses. The people in charge are simply selfish and do not have our best interests at heart. I think that's quite obvious. However, your assertion that the only reason why psychedelic drugs are outlawed is to keep people from realizing this, well, that's utter bullshit. People already know that our government officials are corrupted. There are other reasons for outlawing psychedelics, such as the dangerous nature of these drugs. I personally would prefer it if all non-harmful drugs were legal since I value personal freedoms, but in no way do I think there is a conspiracy behind their legal status.

P.S.

Have you smoked pot or done shrooms before? I seriously hope you're talking about things you've experienced if you're going to deliver *that* level of ridicule against them.

Here's a short list of the drugs I've done: Pot, DXM, Ecstasy (god knows what all that was laced with), Adderall, Alcohol, Codeine and Vicodin. I most likely forgot about a few. But I have been around the block in that respect. However I wasn't ridiculing drugs; I was simply ridiculing your beliefs. I don't have anything against drugs for the purposes of this discussion.

P.P.S. Why is that non-"druggies" think that if we tried shrooms once we're tripping balls in our room 24/7 and not being productive members of society otherwise? You have a fucking experience. You go, "Ohhh... okay!" And then you come back and talk about it. Pretty simple formula.

Mainly because that's pretty much all you talk about, along with Astral Projection and all that other crap. Personally, I think you could be doing something better with your time.

Lol, dodging questions? The questions posed in your last post were a fucking joke. Of course I don't believe the government's involved in some 'Illuminati'-controlled conspiracy. No need to "dodge" a ridiculous question like that; I simply didn't answer it and instead focused on how ridiculous you sound.

Your loss. Someday you might see it my way, though. I wonder then how you'll feel about your previous statement.

YouTube - George Carlin - It's a big club and you ain't in it

there is no conspiracy in place to enslave the masses.

And that's exactly what they want you to think. I am sorry to hear you are another victim of their game. It does, however, put everything else you've said about your opinions on science and others issues in place in my mind.

Good luck to you. Hopefully once you begin to see the illusion that is our government/the world it might change your perspective on other issues as well. Science is advancing but the agenda is always, to an extent, rigged.

Mainly because that's pretty much all you talk about, along with Astral Projection and all that other crap. Personally, I think you could be doing something better with your time.

In one thread on one message board at my own pace? You've got a excellent knack for assuming things based on a limited amount of evidence.

Peace out.

-K