Thread: Perception of Time experiments.

Originally Posted by ThePieMan

At that point, reality wouldn't be enough to satisfy us. (Thats from inception). So under no circumstances should you have a lucid dream for that long, if it is even possible.

in any case i think the dreamer would recognize the consequences and force himself/herself to wake up... at least i would

I thought about this right after watching Inception. It would be awesome to spend a week or two in a dream, I'm definitely going to try the portal method in my next lucid dream

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

Those experiments were done with lucid dreams. Also, if it FEELS like hours and hours, who's to say that it isn't? Doesn't matter how long it actually lasts, rather, how long it feels. The PERCEPTION of time in dreams is the topic, not the REALITY of time in dreams

Indeed. The important part need not be the technical "This dream lasted exactly 15 minutes IRL and in the dream and therefore..." but rather the "this dream may have only lasted 15 minutes, but it felt like an hour" aspect.
It's all perception. Time passes much faster when I play Portal compared to when I stare at clocks.

I hope that robot butler post in this thread. He gives the best example of dream time perception I have heard.

I dont know why. You guys give me this feeling of ignorance. a lucid dream, can not, and will not feel years longer than it was.

It might feel minutes more at most. Maybe 10 if your lucky.

It has pretty much been proven by LaBerge that dream time is almost exactly the same as real time.

Yet people still bring up this topic. Astounding.

Laberge may be a respected pioneer but he doesn't have the last word on all things in the Dreamworld. Einstein's theories are always being refined, challenged and refuted. Early maps were inaccurate. Why should the science of dreams be any different?

A quick web search showed that in 'The New Science of Dreaming', LaBerge accepts that time dilation can occur under certain circumstances.

*

I've heard plenty of stories of extreme time dilation, so I'm sure it's possible. This is one of the most interesting aspects of the dream plane.

Well, sorry for taking a long time to get back to you all...but anyways. I've made my dreams seem longer and longer successfully making lucids up to about a month at a time. A weird side effect has occcured that I didn't even think about, it's making my nonlucids longer as well. Now, on to answering some questions. Yes, I have gotten better at elongating dreams by practicing it. Yes, I do enjoy it even though some people say they find the aspects of long dreams scary, and about that...if it was a long nonlucid, nonlucid you wouldn't care, you just might wake up a bit stumbled, and if it's lucid, you either control it well right away and it's pure bliss, or it starts off hard to control but becomes easier, and is still quite fun. On to a note that others may find more disturbing though...as SergSG and ThePieMan said, you do start to find real life more boring. Not consciously mostly, but I find if I look at a clock I think 'oh it's so long before I get to dream again.' People say there would be no point in living at all, but I see it as a great opportunity because I believ shared dreaming is possible and in that way you could possibly live awhile with someone from entirely different area of the world at no cost, instead of just a quick chat. Heck, maybe we could get all of dreamviews to make a village and live together for a month or so xD...Either way, if you're Scared, don't be. It's a dream, and amazing.

ok, so say you could live for what feels like a year (or even a life time) in a dream, couldnt that lead to some rather detrimental mental side affects on wakeing? for example, if you managed to achieve all your lifetime goals in a huge lucid dream, then whats the point in wakeing up? On the other hand, it could be said that time perception to this extent could be used as a form of escapism from live.
"F*** this, im going back to the dream world! *10 mins later* zzzZZZ"

following what someone here said earlier, dream events are not quite as clear as real life events, so they happen faster and with less detail. the movie reference was good.
however, we still just dont know for sure. for all we know, it could be exactly like inception, where 5 hours in a lucid dream is 5 minutes in the real world, but we cant remember everything that happened in those 5 hours so it doesnt feel like it was that long.

i know that this is quite an impossible conception to take in, but think for a while- so is the entire concept of lucid dreaming, but it was proven. eventually, we'll learn, whether by tests with "dream machines" or whatever lies ahead in the future.

Originally Posted by Dowzen

Laberge may be a respected pioneer but he doesn't have the last word on all things in the Dreamworld. Einstein's theories are always being refined, challenged and refuted. Early maps were inaccurate. Why should the science of dreams be any different?

Early maps were guesses. Einsteins theories were theories (they weren't laws. So were not 100% proven) and laberge proved his finding over and over. Meaning it's backed my the scientific theory.

Originally Posted by Dowzen

A quick web search showed that in 'The New Science of Dreaming', LaBerge accepts that time dilation can occur under certain circumstances

I did that search just now. And nothing came up. Except a book that laberge didn't even get involved in. Nice lie.

Originally Posted by Dowzen

I've heard plenty of stories of extreme time dilation, so I'm sure it's possible. This is one of the most interesting aspects of the dream plane.

You shouldn't believe everything that's told to you.

Originally Posted by Raish

following what someone here said earlier, dream events are not quite as clear as real life events, so they happen faster and with less detail.

You have had one lucid dream. How can you know the potential vividness of a lucid dream?

Originally Posted by Raish

however, we still just dont know for sure. for all we know, it could be exactly like inception, where 5 hours in a lucid dream is 5 minutes in the real world, but we cant remember everything that happened in those 5 hours so it doesnt feel like it was that long.

We DO know for sure. And no that's not how it works. Five minutes real time is five minutes dream time.

@Dakotahnok Dude whats with all the negativity? We DON'T actually know anything for sure, unless you have done some experiments for yourself to back your claims up. And just like you said, don't believe everything you're told.

Originally Posted by SergSG

@Dakotahnok Dude whats with all the negativity? We DON'T actually know anything for sure, unless you have done some experiments for yourself to back your claims up. And just like you said, don't believe everything you're told.

you dont think that i have done any type of experiment?

also i DO believe in what science tells me. if there are repeated experiments showing that dream time is the same as real time then i believe it.

I did that search just now. And nothing came up. Except a book that laberge didn't even get involved in. Nice lie.

Thanks! I put a lot of effort into my lies, and it's always nice when someone notices. I didn't link the site with the quote about LaBerge because I can't post links as a newb. Second, I though it'd be out of order to reference another forum on this board.

Here's the exact search I used. Works for me:

'The New Science of Dreaming', LaBerge Time Dilation

NOTE: I did another search. Yes, The New Science Of Dreaming wasn't written by LaBerge. Maybe he was quoted in it, or maybe the guy posting about it was plain wrong. I have no idea.

***

The Dreamworld is vast and there are many levels. Maybe there are sections that some people have access to and other don't. We all have different skill levels.

1. The best way to find out what LaBerge thinks at the moment would be to email him.

2. We could sit here debating and slinging studies at each other all day. In the end it doesn't matter, each of us is involved in his/her personal exploration of the dreamworld.

3. One constant about science is that facts and laws are being discarded and renewed over and over.

Here's a page full of quotes by respected scientists. You can't just say "Science says so, so there." Our understanding of the universe is constantly changing.

"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895)

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." (Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943)

"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home." (Ken Olsen, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,
1977)

"The telephone has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." (Western Union internal memo, 1876)

"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." (Marshal Ferdinand Foch, French commander of Allied forces during the closing months of World War I, 1918)

"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" (David Sarnoff's associates, in response to his urgings for investment in radio in the 1920's)

"Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." (New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket work, 1921)

"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" (Harry M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927)

"Everything that can be invented has been invented." (Charles H. Duell, commissioner, US Office of Patents, 1899)

"The [flying] machine will eventually be fast; they will be used in sport, but they are not to be thought of as commercial carriers." --Octave Chanute, aviation pioneer, 1904.

"The ordinary 'horseless carriage' is at present a luxury for the wealthy; and although its price will probably fall in the future, it will never come into as common use as the bicycle." --The Literary Digest, 1889.

"[It] is, of course, altogether valueless.... Ours has been the first, and will doubtless be the last, party of whites to visit this profitless locality." --Lt. Joseph D. Ives, Corps of Topographical Engineers, 1861, on the Grand Canyon.

"Landing and moving around on the moon offer so many serious problems for human beings that it may take science another 200 years to lick them." --Science Digest, August, 1948.

"X rays are a hoax." "Aircraft flight is impossible." "Radio has no future." --Physicist and mathematician Lord Kelvin (1824-1907)

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." --Thomas Watson, Chairman, IBM, 1943.

"The bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives." --Adm. William Leahy, U.S. Atomic Energy Project, 1945.

"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." --Popular Mechanics, 1949.

"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." --Decca Recording Co., in rejecting the Beatles, 1962

.

Originally Posted by Dowzen

Here's a page full of quotes by respected scientists. You can't just say "Science says so, so there." Our understanding of the universe is constantly changing.

.

all you just did was give me a shit ton of scientists opinions. just because a scientist says something doesnt make it science. laberge didnt say that real time and dream time are the same. he proved it multiple times. and THATS science.

Yea I reckon it all comes down to the way we perceive it.
But I think that since our brain processes our thoughts etc etc etc within really small time periods, I think that it would be possible for our brain to idk, slow this down, so that we are doing something longer than we are..
Kinda confusing, but makes sense in my head... haha

Dakotahnok, may I have a link to these experiments LaBerge has done and proven?

Originally Posted by tigerstar186

Dakotahnok, may I have a link to these experiments LaBerge has done and proven?

They are in his book. And someone quoted it on this thread. If you really can't find it I guess I have to get you some links.

Originally Posted by Dowzen

Laberge may be a respected..

Not in my house he's not.. stole it all from Celia Green and then didn't give her any due, pseudo-scientist that he is. Check out her 1968 book "Lucid Dreaming" and then tell me I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Dowzen

..pioneer..

My arse.. he's a johnny-come-lately who sequestered previous research and set himself up as a new age pseudo scientist, conning gullible teenagers and others into believing his own self-aggrandising hype. IMO.

BTW Dowzen.. you've got some nous.. bear in mind that this site is overrun with teenagers.

Originally Posted by Oneiro

Not in my house he's not.. stole it all from Celia Green and then didn't give her any due, pseudo-scientist that he is. Check out her 1968 book "Lucid Dreaming" and then tell me I'm wrong.



My arse.. he's a johnny-come-lately who sequestered previous research and set himself up as a new age pseudo scientist, conning gullible teenagers and others into believing his own self-aggrandising hype. IMO.

BTW Dowzen.. you've got some nous.. bear in mind that this site is overrun with teenagers.

I have to agree with you that a lot of laberge's researches is based off of or taken from Celia green. But that doesn't make it false. Laberge is the one that took lucid dreaming to a higher publicity.

And I hope the teenager remark wasn't directed at me. Because I'm pretty sure I know more knowledge on lucid dreaming then most adults on this site. I can also top them In number of lucids.

Originally Posted by Oneiro

.. bear in mind that this site is overrun with teenagers.

..who can b.s. 'til the cows come home..

Originally Posted by Oneiro

..who can b.s. 'til the cows come home..

Yep, I'm completely full of bull shit. I've never even had a lucid dream

You make such reasonable arguments. Why can't anybody take you seriously?

Here’re a couple of wrenches to toss into the Dakotahnok/Dowzen deathmatch:

First, I’ve listened directly to Dr. LaBerge speak about his time-comparison experiments, and he did indeed find that, scientifically, perception of time is essentially the same in a dream as it is in reality. His experiment was elegantly simple, and relied on input from lucid dreamers. That said, when I discussed the question with him later, he did seem quite open to the idea that other experiments might be done to prove otherwise…I think he was troubled that a dreamer going to sleep with the intent of measuring the time of his dream might wind up actually trying to measure accurately, rather than try to make the dream last a long time…of course, that is just my opinion! So the science definitely exists, but the grand poobas of lucid dream research who performed the experiment was a bit hesitant.

Next, my own philosophical bent: what if you considered that there is actually no such thing as time? After all, the only reason time exists is so that people can make sense of reality, and the mathematicians can fill in the blanks of their Standard Model of physics. There are no time particles, or time waves, or anything else to make it a physical thing -- it’s just a tool for understanding our physical universe. Now let’s say for the sake of argument that the physical universe in an individual’s dream is far different than that of the waking universe -- couldn’t the rules of time actually be different there? Indeed, if you the lucid dreamer is creating an entire universe from pure thought energy whenever you dream, why couldn’t you be able to change the rules as needed?

I love arguments like this, because you are both absolutely right! Although, you both might have noticed that pretty much none of those quotes Dowsen listed were actually made by scientists…

Originally Posted by tigerstar186

Well, sorry for taking a long time to get back to you all...but anyways. I've made my dreams seem longer and longer successfully making lucids up to about a month at a time. A weird side effect has occured that I didn't even think about, it's making my nonlucids longer as well. Now, on to answering some questions. Yes, I have gotten better at elongating dreams by practicing it. Yes, I do enjoy it even though some people say they find the aspects of long dreams scary, and about that...if it was a long nonlucid, nonlucid you wouldn't care, you just might wake up a bit stumbled, and if it's lucid, you either control it well right away and it's pure bliss, or it starts off hard to control but becomes easier, and is still quite fun. On to a note that others may find more disturbing though...as SergSG and ThePieMan said, you do start to find real life more boring. Not consciously mostly, but I find if I look at a clock I think 'oh it's so long before I get to dream again.' People say there would be no point in living at all, but I see it as a great opportunity because I believ shared dreaming is possible and in that way you could possibly live awhile with someone from entirely different area of the world at no cost, instead of just a quick chat. Heck, maybe we could get all of dreamviews to make a village and live together for a month or so xD...Either way, if you're Scared, don't be. It's a dream, and amazing.

Great stuff, Tigerstar. Could you maybe be a little more specific about how your dreams seem to last so long? I think this is important, because the dreaming mind is a helluva thing, and there is a chance that you literally -- and quite honestly -- remember, upon waking, that your dream felt like a month, or your dreaming mind has given you a plot line with enough twists and references to time passing that it really seems like much time has passed.

Both of those things have happened to me many times, so I thought it might be worth asking -- in the hopes that you found a way to do this, and can show us how...