Thread: Perception of Time experiments.

Originally Posted by Dowzen

post.
body's going to be a lot more efficient in sleep and dreams. There's no way we can assume that a dreaming body burns calories at the same rate that it does when awake. I don't think the calorie argument is very strong...

LaBerge's time dream experiment was in 1985 I think, that's a long time ago and a lot could've changed since then.

I defiantly agree with you here. I highly doubt one would burn that amount of calories during a dream. One has to remember that there body is laying in there bed not moving at all. The dream is all in ones mind, so I dont think its burning to many calories. I think the body uses the same amount of calories it would during a normal nights rest.

Originally Posted by carwashguy

A person's "judgment" of time may be a better way to phrase it than to say his "perception" of time. When you ask two people how long they've been on lunch break, one might say an hour while another might say an hour and a half. This doesn't necessarily mean that the second person perceived an extra thirty minutes in the sense that he experienced the same lunch-eating phenomenon but at a 150% rate of slowdown. It may be that they both perceived the same amount of time and one may've simply misjudged how long it took.

For this reason, I like the way Laberge put it when he compared dream time with a movie. In the movie The Godfather, one scene we see Michael in Italy and the next time we see him, he has returned home. We don't actually see him take the bus to Pisa, then the train to Paris (and see him watch all the houses as he goes by), then the flight to America. We just fill in that stuff and assumed it happened. Should that happen in a dream, the dreamer might fill it in the same way and assume he spent days of travel between two separate dream events. He perceived thirty minutes, but judged far more than that.

As for these extreme year-to-hour anecdotes, they create some problems when you break it all down. According to Popular Science, your brain needs 0.1 calories per minute to stay alive. When you think harder, it'll burn 1.5 calories per minute. So, when a person says they spent a year in a dream, they're claiming they experienced a year's worth of perception--a years worth of utilizing their brain's resources to make sense of the dream around them, to move around it, to think about it, and to just live in it. They are claiming to have fit 8760 hours of mental processes into one hour. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they've only burnt the minimum of .1 calories per minute. In the alleged one year of dream time, their brain has burnt up (60m*24h*365d)*.1 = 52,560 calories! There's an estimated 3500 calories in a pound, so after one hour they've lost 15 pounds at a minimum (hell of a weight loss plan). That kind of rapid weight loss sounds dangerous, not to mention absurd. Do these dreamers wake up emaciated?

That doesn't even mention how your eye movements in REM sleep likely matches how your "dream eyes" move, as is alluded to in EWLD. If your dream eye movements match your real eye movements, then one cannot move slow while the other moves fast. In other words, you couldn't fit in twice the number of "left-right" eye movements in a dream without moving your real eyes, too. Wouldn't year's worth of eye movements crammed into one hour likely cause damage if not blindness (not to mention more calories)? This alone should be enough reason for skepticism. But really, just look at the evidence. I'm not saying it's impossible, but right now we have Laberge's experiments and anecdotal evidence in favor of equal time perception, but only anecdotal evidence in favor of distorted time perception. Believe me. I'll be the first one celebrating if one day we find out it's possible, but that doesn't mean I'm going to throw all rational thinking aside in the meanwhile.

I dont know if I quit agree with the calorie theory there. About the time in dreams, people have sworn that time dialation works to lengthen the dream and I'm sure you know enough about that topic to see how that would help people create longer dreams. Put that together with other ways to change ones perception of dream time, and one could possibly have what seems like an extremely long dream.

Originally Posted by tigerstar186

I can see your point, but as earlier stated I have also had week to two month lucids normally now.

Oh, I forgot about that, sorry! In that case, maybe you could answer Dowzen's questions again, but with the lucid time dilation dreams in mind? Okay if you don't; I'm just curious!

Originally Posted by NrElAx

I defiantly agree with you here. I highly doubt one would burn that amount of calories during a dream. One has to remember that there body is laying in there bed not moving at all. The dream is all in ones mind, so I dont think its burning to many calories. I think the body uses the same amount of calories it would during a normal nights rest.

Uh, the article stated that any less than .1 calories per minute and you die. When thinking harder, it can bump up to 15 times that number. I specifically used the minimum as a preemptive counter to the argument that the brain might work more efficiently. The brain just ain't gonna work at all if you go any lower, since it'll die.

Originally Posted by NrElAx

I dont know if I quit agree with the calorie theory there. About the time in dreams, people have sworn that time dialation works to lengthen the dream and I'm sure you know enough about that topic to see how that would help people create longer dreams. Put that together with other ways to change ones perception of dream time, and one could possibly have what seems like an extremely long dream.

We have to be weary of anecdotal evidence. If someone experiences something interesting, I'm all for talking about it and seeing if other people can replicate that experience. However, it's too easy to just give into something we would like to believe just because it's attractive or popular, despite what scientific evidence we have towards the contrary. Just look at what's recently happened with the vaccine/autism scare. You're free to believe whatever you like, and I hope you prove me wrong some day, but this all sounds a lot like subjective validation to me.

Alright, this is reanswering Dowzen'ss questions for the longer lucids.

1. Never slept, at all, but I probably could've tried and it would make me have a false awakening, that's what's happened to me in shorter dreams before.
2. It was just a basic town, so definitely. Real life.
3. No, it was clear. All my lucids are.
4. Nope, eventually I just did.
5. They never brought it up to me but I brought it up to a group of friends once and a random DC once. The group of friends was mostly a lot of laughs, and 'yeah right!'s except one looked at me oddly, it was close to when I woke up though so I never got to ask him about it. When I told the random dream character, he glared at me and ran away.
6. Nope, I never use anything to enhance it other than sleep.

Time dilation is real. It happens everyday. When time goes by slow at work or school and fast at a party, time dilation is in effect. Im just saying that if someone has what they believe to be a week long dream, or a month, I dont think they'd use up so many calories. I wasn't disagreeing that people dont burn calories while they sleep. I believe that you use the same amount of brain energy as one would if they are having regular dream. The longest one can dream I believe is around almost two hours, or maybe less. So during that time, one could use time dilation to make the dream a lot longer feeling.
If i remember correctly, i dont know for sure, LaBerge stated that lucid dreaming doesn't affect the mind any differently than any other dream. Now, I can't say its not totally different, because the frontal libe is active during a lucid dream. I just dont agree that someone who has what they believe to be a year long dream, would lose as much calories as you stated. Most of these long dreams occur because of time dilation and like you said, missing fragments of time, which occur in movies( A person goes to bed, and then 3 seconds later it morning). We as an audience know that the person has fallen asleep and know many hours hate gone by, yet it was only three seconds. We accept that all the time has gone by is a better way to put it. I agree with what you stated about that.
I've had some pretty long dreams in my life, that seemed like days, but I woke up weighing the same

Originally Posted by NonConformist

A fellow dreamviewer has already done this. Here's what he said.
So... Yeah.

This^
And I believe it was AL3ZAY^_^
edit: corrected myself

Here are Tigerstar's answers together with my questions for easier reading.

Dowzen
Tigerstar

1. When you were there did you sleep? And did you dream, or were you awake the whole time?

1. Never slept, at all, but I probably could've tried and it would make me have a false awakening, that's what's happened to me in shorter dreams before.

2. Can you return to the realm you visited or was it just a one off visit?

2. It was just a basic town, so definitely. Real life.

3. Did this area have the normal qualities of an average dream (things chaning all the time, nothing too solid) or did it feel more concrete and objective?

3. No, it was clear. All my lucids are.

4. Did you ever feel in danger of waking up, or changing to a different dream, or any other instability?

4. Nope, eventually I just did.

5. Did the other people in this place know that you were dreaming? Did you ever talk about dreams to them?

5. They never brought it up to me but I brought it up to a group of friends once and a random DC once. The group of friends was mostly a lot of laughs, and 'yeah right!'s except one looked at me oddly, it was close to when I woke up though so I never got to ask him about it. When I told the random dream character, he glared at me and ran away.


6. What method did you use to get there? Did you take any Galantamine?

6. Nope, I never use anything to enhance it other than sleep.

When I told the random dream character, he glared at me and ran away.

lol.

I just wondered what's the difference between friends and a random dream character?

Friends are ones who naturally walk up and talk to me, so if I wasn't lucid we would be 'friends' and a random DC is just someone on the street I pull over

I think it would be quite interesting to prolong your dream to several years, so that you may take on the role of the main character in your favourite trilogy. For instance, take on the role of Frodo in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and allow your subconcious (which no doubt remembers the whole story!) to fill in all of the intertwining plotlines and such. Even add new twists or change parts of the story which you think ought to be changed. Of course I wouldn't do this without telling Sam to continually remind me that I am dreaming, and that I am not Frodo, in fact. I think that an excursion like this would really teach you not to take everything you have for granted, as you will face so many hardships upon your journey... I think that I shall experiment around and try this one out

^I wouldn't do that.

I'd rather create my own world and starting setting. Then I'd pop in there and see where it goes. If I knew how to. :p

Only problem is, it wouldn't actually have hardships. You're lucid, and I doubt you'd have the patience to not skip the hardships with lucidity, and if you did you probably wouldn't needs to learn from the hardships in the first place.

Originally Posted by tigerstar186

Only problem is, it wouldn't actually have hardships. You're lucid, and I doubt you'd have the patience to not skip the hardships with lucidity, and if you did you probably wouldn't needs to learn from the hardships in the first place.

Well if someone really wants to follow the plot of the story, they could possibly go through the hardships. It just depends on the persons willpower and how badly they want to keep to the story line. But i can see what your saying. If someone already knows what difficult parts are going to happen, they might find and easy way out, thus not staying on track with the plot. Its an interesting idea, and I've always wanted to do it myself, but never been able to stay lucid long enough. I'd probably think of my own story line and then let my subconscious take me on well hell of a ride lol.

Video games and lucid dreams go so well together in metaphors.

Let me use a video game metaphor. I've played countless games where I knew the cheats before playing, and while I was playing. Does that mean I can't refrain myself from using them? The whole experience is that much worse if you're not willing to sit through it all. I don't want it all to be as easy as flicking a switch.

Originally Posted by JussiKala

Video games and lucid dreams go so well together in metaphors.

Let me use a video game metaphor. I've played countless games where I knew the cheats before playing, and while I was playing. Does that mean I can't refrain myself from using them? The whole experience is that much worse if you're not willing to sit through it all. I don't want it all to be as easy as flicking a switch.

I get what your saying. So is that why you'd want to create your own storyline. That way, your subconscious will give you surprises at every moment, and you wont know what's going to happen next. Its like a little surprise around every corner.

Originally Posted by JussiKala

Video games and lucid dreams go so well together in metaphors.

Let me use a video game metaphor. I've played countless games where I knew the cheats before playing, and while I was playing. Does that mean I can't refrain myself from using them? The whole experience is that much worse if you're not willing to sit through it all. I don't want it all to be as easy as flicking a switch.

This sounds awesome.

Oh man I want to do this so bad. Though LDing for a "year" and forgetting everything probably wouldn't be so beneficial for my life, it'd certainly be interesting to observe the effects afterwards.

Originally Posted by NrElAx

I get what your saying. So is that why you'd want to create your own storyline. That way, your subconscious will give you surprises at every moment, and you wont know what's going to happen next. Its like a little surprise around every corner.

That, and it'd be an extraordinary experience to be in another world, so to speak, while still being familiar with that world.

True say about the skipping past the hardships. And I really do like that idea of having your mind create a story for you as you go along. I will definitely muck around with these ideas a bit, and I'll let you guys know if it really is worthwhile.

Originally Posted by JussiKala

That, and it'd be an extraordinary experience to be in another world, so to speak, while still being familiar with that world.

ok, gotcha. Yea that sounds amazing. Dont you just love lucid dreaming. So many possibilities. My friends and family talk shit about it, but they can think what they want. But its them in the end that are missing out on all the experiences while asleep. Always remember, you sleep 1/3 of your life, and you can spend most of that time being conscious in your dreams. Alright, back to movies, I dont want to hijack this thread lol. Right now I'm watching Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps. I think that's the name hahah. Its the fourth time I've seen it, but I fell asleep the first two times I saw it. I actually really like it and I love the soundtrack. I also watched the zodiac earlier which I've also seen a few time. Also a very good movie but I've only seen the end once. The other night i watched My Babysitters a Vampire on Disney. It was ok, but its a Disney movie, so what do you expect. Im not bashing on Disney movies though. I actually watch Disney channel everyday because it reminds me of all the good times i had as a kid. That and Selina Gomez is hella hott. she's turning nineteen three days after me too, so she's legal for me. Im gonna be 22 on the 20th of this month, Yay. Im getting a 5.56mm AR 15 assault rifle. Im paying for half because its gonna be $1300.

Something rather odd happened last night, Sannet was in a dream but I had absolutely no control over her. I could still bend the world and other DCs but not her, anyone else had something like this happen? o.o

Something rather odd happened last night, Sannet was in a dream but I had absolutely no control over her. I could still bend the world and other DCs but not her, anyone else had something like this happen? o.o

Some people think that lucid dreams are just messing around in your personal subconscious. Others think that you are entering real energetic worlds with objective entities that are independent separate from you.

Each side will never convince the other. Each to his own. It's up to everyone to make their own personal exploration....

Moved to Beyond Dreaming...


other DGs, if this is an incorrect move, move back