Thread: LDs and psychedelics

This guy.... Talk about unresolved issues. Leave if you want Sageous, one less naysayer. I can't speak for the other two, but I do think it would be a good idea for you to abandon this thread, as it seems you really can't teach an old dog new tricks.

You want to come to a forum that is labeled LUCID DREAMING AND PSYCHEDELICS and I defend the perfect item for this topic of discussion, and you respond by filling your reply with subtle backhanded comments. Same as your last. Even your very last sentence is meant to be an insult, but in it, you reveal how you truly think, you dismiss DMT.

I will continue down this road, because I see where yours took you and I don't care much for it. You decide to leave this thread after a few messages, instead of discussing this. Drugs are bad for you Sageous, stay away. Leave them to the true Psychonauts.

^^ Wow.

PlanesWalker, how about you have a look through your own posts on the thread? I can assure you that you have progressed the thread just as little as you make out that sageous did.
You start out by saying this.

DMT is linked to Dreaming and Near Death Experiences. It isn't just another chemical. It's called The Spirit Molecule for a reason.

Without any explanation you just state that it is linked, can you please give us some proof?

You proceed to post.

You haven't watched it have you? Of course not. You ridicule with no knowledge

Yet you don't seem to be using logic or reason to back up your argument either. How about instead of just pissing around you and getting upset about something insignificant like an internet row, you actually give us some solid information to work on and analyze. I'd be happy to reply sensibly and properly if you can come up with a good post.
Don't link me a video, just tell me straight out why you believe DMT is related to dreams and we can go on from that.

It seems to me that a part of the motivation of the older, anti-drug people in this thread has been egotistical, and I agree that this is annoying. So apologies for our imperfections, speaking for myself anyway. But the egotism really isn't very much of where we have been coming from. Mostly our motivation has been to help, we learned something through many years of hard experience and we're trying to share that because we care about what happens to other people, especially where our friends and would-be mentors didn't care about us. We can't go back and fix our lives, but at least we can try to warn other people.

Our experience has been dismissed as ignorant and out of touch before anyone even knows what it is, as if only the experience of a current drug enthusiast is truly authentic. You're not really even arguing with us, you're apparently addressing some kind of puritanical stereotype that's at least as alien to us as it is to you.

I agree that DMT can show you things about your connection to the universe that an individual might not be able to experience otherwise. I also feel that it has a predatory side that's not immediately understood by everyone, that the pit it hopes to pull you into is very deep, and the price it hopes to extract is very, very high. I can't expect anyone to believe me though, if it doesn't fit your model of what it is or is not possible for someone else to know or care about.

[Possible clarification. I don't mean to imply that the drug itself has a will, I'm speaking metaphorically about the spirit of what it does in the long run, as I perceive it.]

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I was inquiring about your apparently sweeping characterization of alcohol users. I can see that there's a lot of different ways a person can parse that though, for instance you might consider them to be drunk idiots not because they drink to excess but because they don't use hallucinogens.

Their drunk idiots because their drunk idiots. Not because of the alcohol, but because they aren't mature and/or smart enough to drink to a normal amount. I drink on occasion myself, I don't get hammered and wake up in a field unaware of my last nights escapade.

I said that alcohol as a drug is terrible for you, which excludes anyone not using it as a drug.

Come again? The only way to use alcohol, not as a drug in my experience is to cook with it.(and other types of non-consumption alcohols) People who drink wine and beer, but not to excess are still using it as a drug...

They are just not ABUSING it.

And I furthermore said that drunks don't value their minds, which excludes anyone using alcohol temperately for a drug effect. But for any wine drinkers and beer aficionados who can be fairly characterized as "drunks", I was including them. (When I say they don't value their minds, I should qualify that by saying they don't value them with sufficient strength to stop drinking. All people are of course under a lot of different pressures, internal and external, and are all in one sense or another doing the best that they can.)

Maybe addiction is something you don't understand. I don't believe the reason alcoholics become alcoholics is because they don't value their mind, but something far more complicated.

Actually I have spent a lot of time not only with wine drinkers and beer aficionados, but with alcoholics, potheads, acid heads, and heroin users. These have been close friends and we have talked openly and extensively about our experiences.

Doesn't sound like you actively listened to anything anyone said to you.

Almost all drug users can see that other drug users are killing themselves with it, but they usually have a weird chemically fueled superiority complex where they imagine they are not like those other people.

Nothing like holding yourself in your own superiority complex where you're superiority derives from your sobriety... Because all drug users are killing themselves man... those stoners are slowly slowly eating themselves to death on snack foods and writing novels like Cosmos. MANNNN

DUDE

There are other reasons drugs are not a shortcut, like numbing of the mind, or the fact that hallucinations by definition are false, and thus aren't much of an aid to introspection.

You do realize this is all false right? So what's the difference?

Saying the majority is genuine, does not help those who get the 'minority' bad drugs. Find a reputable person? Sure, that makes sense if you happen to be well informed and part of the rainbow family, but does nothing for the random 14 year old in Kansas.

Fourteen-Year olds have no reason to be looking for drugs and I could care less about their ability to access them. And one does not need to be a member of the "rainbow family" to find high quality goods. It's really not that difficult. A fine place to start would be any music festival, ever. Or I don't know friends?

You are right that the majority of mushrooms are real (some are pcp though)

Can you explain how a mushroom becomes PCP? Do you know what PCP looks like? At some point you might want to question yourself and ask why you have some shitaki mushrooms covered in a whiteish powder.

.. will finish edit so wait

but the fact is that many various drugs get put on paper and sold as 'acid'. Acid does not always mean LSD, and who knows what the drug is.

Well seeing as how most drugs can't actually be put on paper, what you usually get is LSD..

Perhaps using a drug is not bad, but abusing it is. However, many drugs have 'abuse potential' that is off the chart. That is, if we give the drug to a bunch of people, how many will end up abusing it. Crack is a good example. It is easy to say 'just use a little' but if you gave it to primitive people, many would end up crack fiends.

Abuse potential? Just like everything in life.. Sex, food, drugs, video games, novels, movies... Do you really mean ... that just like everything else in life.. it can be overused and abused? No way man. Crack is great, I love it look at my teeth bro.. It's almost like.. this discussion was about how introspective crack makes you... I always smoke crack and contemplate the universe man.

As a society we must warn the youth of the risk drugs can pose. Only a youth (in body or mental status) would make pro-drug rants, while failing to warn of the dark side of the story. If you feel there is no dark side, then just give it some time, and you will see friends ruined or killed.

Lol what? Assumption prone are we? No one said anything of the sort. Seen more than you know.

I am assuming you are about 20 years old, give or take 3 years.

Wrong, try again.

Correct me if I am wrong. When I was that age it may have been me expressing thoughts like you have.

So even back than you didn't know what you were talking about?

At that age neither of my two best friend had yet ended up in prison, my first girlfriend had not yet smashed up someones car with a hammer. One of my best friends had not yet gone baserck in a coffee house and been subdued by a swat team. Give it time and it will show a dark side.

Will you please give your speeches to someone who isn't approaching his 30's, K thanks. I know what DRUG ABUSE can do, thank you.. Which is why I.. I started this discussion with the difference between USE and ABUSE.. something most of the public, yourself included have trouble grasping.

Ask why anyone would proclaim pro-drug retoric? Another thing you learn with time and after meeting enough A.A or N.A. people is the idea of 'defending the stash' where you have a knee jerk reaction to any one saying anything that may imply you should not use the drug.

I have an alcoholic ex-best friend, thanks. Why would anyone proclaim pro-drug speech, I don't know maybe because they know how to use their cognitive functions to think for themselves instead of relying on the 40+ years of misinformation and paranoia surrounding drugs, where we pretend that Marijuana is more dangerous than Heroin.

Another thing you apparently don't learn with time.. is that assumptions make you look stupid. Yep.

Nothing like out of touch people......

When I was that age... Even though I have no fucking clue what age you are because.. I never asked.. but instead of assuming your pushing your 30's I'll assume your fresh out of high school, cause god forbid anyone made it through adolescence without a hatred for substances... because of peoples mistakes.



/Sarcasm Throughout.


Only youth, in body or spirit, soul or otherwise.. would make an anti-drug rant.... Because with true experience and many soul incarnations, you start to realize that life, the universe and everything isn't a black and white canvas, but one of colors and many greys. All drugs are not the same and can not be discussed, intelligently when they are all classified as simply drugs. Marijuana is not crack. With true experience and contemplation one can begin to understand the heart of the matter lies in the individual, not in the substance. Good luck on your journey, you're gonna need it.

Probably seen more peoples lives ruined than you ever have, but hey.. lets be all high and mighty.

-Minus the high, don't want to be stoned and possibly enjoying yourself after all.. Addicts must mean everyone has a drug problem.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Abuse potential? Just like everything in life.. Sex, food, drugs, video games, novels, movies... Do you really mean ... that just like everything else in life.. it can be overused and abused? No way man. Crack is great, I love it look at my teeth bro.. It's almost like.. this discussion was about how introspective crack makes you... I always smoke crack and contemplate the universe man.

This is probably the only thing I disagree with out of everything you said. I don't think its wise to compare the addictive potential of drugs to daily affairs. You don't get life threatening withdrawal symptoms from quitting World of Warcraft.

There are chemically addictive properties associated with some of these drugs that make your body physically & mentally dependent. Even if you have the will to stop using or abusing the drug, it isn't so simple that you just stop. Granted, this does not apply to all drugs.

He has a point that some drugs have ridiculous abuse potential. However, I don't agree with his point that if for example all drugs were made legal in the US, this would mean we would have a huge influx of heroin and crack addicts. Personally I believe the exact opposite would occur, we would see a decrease in abuse overall.

Originally Posted by Oros

Do you mean they screw up the cognitive abilities during the trip or in the long run? I'm not saying this is wrong, but I never heard of that. Where do you hear it from?

I am saying that 'while' tripping balls, you obviously will have impaired cognitive skill. That sounds so obvious, you must wonder why I even said it? At least two people have tried to say it does not impair cognitive abilty. One who said it, just mentioned it seperates you from your body; no, that would not be an impairment to say, putting together a puzzle, or untying a knot in your shoelace, would it?

Originally Posted by sivason

I am saying that 'while' tripping balls, you obviously will have impaired cognitive skill. That sounds so obvious, you must wonder why I even said it? At least two people have tried to say it does not impair cognitive abilty. One who said it, just mentioned it seperates you from your body; no, that would not be an impairment to say, putting together a puzzle, or untying a knot in your shoelace, would it?

Oh, I see. Thought you means in the long run. Have never felt any cognitive differences after the trip

Originally Posted by BossMan

This is probably the only thing I disagree with out of everything you said. I don't think its wise to compare the addictive potential of drugs to daily affairs. You don't get life threatening withdrawal symptoms from quitting World of Warcraft.

There are chemically addictive properties associated with some of these drugs that make your body physically & mentally dependent. Even if you have the will to stop using or abusing the drug, it isn't so simple that you just stop. Granted, this does not apply to all drugs.

He has a point that some drugs have ridiculous abuse potential. However, I don't agree with his point that if for example all drugs were made legal in the US, this would mean we would have a huge influx of heroin and crack addicts. Personally I believe the exact opposite would occur, we would see a decrease in abuse overall.

Maybe not wise but, their are most certainly many many.. more people in this country that eat.. and they cost our healthcare system far more than heroin or crack heads.

You may not have withdrawal symptoms from trying to eat less, but it sure seems like it's a difficult thing for many people... And you might not get life threatening withdrawal symptoms from quitting World Of Warcraft.. but their are people whose lives are consumed and ruined because of overplaying... it's not even necessary for a violent withdrawal for something to ruin your life.

My point, everyone's own personal vices can destroy them with or without drugs.

Am I right?

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Maybe not wise but, their are most certainly many many.. more people in this country that eat.. and they cost our healthcare system far more than heroin or crack heads.

You may not have withdrawal symptoms from trying to eat less, but it sure seems like it's a difficult thing for many people... And you might not get life threatening withdrawal symptoms from quitting World Of Warcraft.. but their are people whose lives are consumed and ruined because of overplaying... it's not even necessary for a violent withdrawal for something to ruin your life.

My point, everyone's own personal vices can destroy them with or without drugs.

Am I right?

I think you are right. Vices in general can destroy certain predisposed people. While I have been able to get crazy drunk at some parties, and enjoy say a 24 oz beer with dinner, and have never had any ill effect from drinking on my life, we all know others who have a virtual curse when it comes to them and alcohol. It can be a genetic thing, and does not mean that person is in general less disciplined than any one else; for their bodies alcohol is allways going to lead to tragic ends.

The topic of this thread however has strayed, and I admit to a part in that. The general theme is not supposed to be about drugs in general, my point about crack was simply to show, because it is so obvious with crack, that how a person handles a drug, and if they abuse the drug, has something to do with the drug itself.

I am 41 by the way, and have had friends and family deeply caught up in the drug scene for longer than my memories go back. No one here has attacked hallucinogens or implied anyone who does them is crazy. Instead what you seem upset about is that 3 men who are older and lived through a time when LSD cost 2-4 dollars and was sold in every local park, have expressed views of caution. I know all three of us have stated that some form of intense introspective or euphoric experience expanding event can occur, so it is not like we said they have no value in exploration of your minds odder aspects. What has been said is that nothing hands you enlightment, and that people can have accidents, and that the unaware have no way to confirm what drug they are about to receive, and that the long term path of drug use has many down sides. Not one of those statements is contriversial or debatable, except whether they can grant true enlightenment, and I am totally ok with anyone who wants to discuss how they feel this is not true.

At this point many are just debating and refuse to back down because they enjoy a fight or being difficult. Here is an example of me 'backing down', LSD and mushrooms have allmost no addictive quality, so refering to crack was overly dramatic. Also, I HAVE gained interesting experience widening events many times on either of them. But, I have actually said both things earier. It is like you want to fight against anyone expressing true doubts or cautions to the young readers. You say it does not matter because a 14 year old has no buisness, but many of our members are teens. You say that people can go to a music festival and find a reputable dealer, but that is risky for legal reasons, and no guarentee that the drugs are what he claims. Here is the short of it, all 3 of us older ex-hippyish types want to let teens know true things we feel we know aboout the whole thing, and that seems to piss you off, even though we pretty much all admit the addictive potential is low and that people can have intense thought provoking experiences. So what are you arguing about. I assume it is that you feel the public should let each individual try not to abuse anything while allowing open access to all? I do not think any of us said that is not one way that our culture could be, and no one said the individual does not have the right to do as they wish with their own bodies, so why the objections to some honest words of caution? Children are reading every word we write, and giving them a fair and balanced amount of info seems like a good idea. How do you know a half dozen 14 year olds will not go take acid because people say it expands the mind? Fine if they choose to do that, it is their own responsability to not abuse drugs, but what harm comes from old guys sharing the experience they feel they have?



Here are two points that are not meant to be mean, but does show that you perhaps have only a basic knowledge of the drug trade.


You act like it is foolish to say some mushrooms are pcp. You asked how anyone could not see it was a shitake covered in powder. They either use standard pizza mushrooms and dry them out, to fake liberty caps, or they can use the hay maker mushrooms that grow on lawns to fake true psilocybin. They disolve the drug like pcp in acetone which will absorb evenly into all the flesh, and then for good measure they add a touch of purple food color lightly injected into some of the stems with an insulin needle. Why would anyone do that? PCP is cheap to make and hard to sell, while mushrooms are fairly time consuming to make, but sell in unlimited quantities. Like I said, a dishonest drug dealer. Here is a link, EMCDDA | Hallucinogenic mushrooms
Here is the relevant part ....""Reports from the United States suggest that often mushrooms sold as hallucinogenic mushrooms prove to be normal grocery-bought mushrooms laced with LSD, PCP (phencyclidine) or other substances. In an 11-year study, 886 samples that were said to be psilocybin were analysed. Only 28 percent of these were hallucinogenic mushrooms, while 35 percent were other drugs, mostly LSD or PCP, and 37 percent contained no drug at all."".... So, perhaps there are some things you do not realize? It actually sounds like less than half of the magic mushrooms actually are what people claim.

Also, you state that acid is LSD as other drugs are not put on paper. Again showing that you do not have a very keen knowledge of the drug trade. What you are doing is trying to promote these drugs by dissing on any cautions we have offered, despite many of them being valid. But talk is cheap so lets look at facts. Here is a link, Erowid DOB Vault : LSD or DOB?
Here is the part that makes my case very clear,..."""Another hallucinogen is purveyed in blotter paper units. That agent is 4-bromo-2,5-dimethoxyamphetamine, known frequently in laboratory studies as DOB but also as bromo-DMA (1). According to 19 anonymous brief notations in the Drug Enforcement Administration bulletin Microgram (vols. VI-XIV, 1973-1981), since 1972 DOB has repeatedly been found sold in blotter paper doses in the United States, New Zealand, Australia, the United Kingdom, West Germany, and Greece. Extractable drug averaged .93-2.8 mg per dosage unit for analyses from the United States. Delliou (1) found individual squares to contain 1.4-4.6 mg. In most sales of DOB on blotter paper, it was being misrepresented as LSD (caveat emptor!), to which it is unrelated chemically....""
From W. Marvin Davis, PhD
Vol 139, Dec, 1982, 1649
American Journal of Psychiatry

Originally Posted by sivason

I think you are right. Vices in general can destroy certain predisposed people. While I have been able to get crazy drunk at some parties, and enjoy say a 24 oz beer with dinner, and have never had any ill effect from drinking on my life, we all know others who have a virtual curse when it comes to them and alcohol. It can be a genetic thing, and does not mean that person is in general less disciplined than any one else; for their bodies alcohol is allways going to lead to tragic ends.

The science on addiction is pretty weak all around.

The topic of this thread however has strayed, and I admit to a part in that. The general theme is not supposed to be about drugs in general, my point about crack was simply to show, because it is so obvious with crack, that how a person handles a drug, and if they abuse the drug, has something to do with the drug itself.

Crack and cocaine are basically similar, people can use them responsibly.. It's rare. It's still not the drug, but the person using it.. the person who wants to use crack is generally not the type of person who chooses to smoke or take hallucinogens.. Blaming any substance is nonsensical, it doesn't make you take it. You take it.

I am 41 by the way, and have had friends and family deeply caught up in the drug scene for longer than my memories go back. No one here has attacked hallucinogens or implied anyone who does them is crazy. Instead what you seem upset about is that 3 men who are older and lived through a time when LSD cost 2-4 dollars and was sold in every local park, have expressed views of caution.

Caution is not the same thing as denouncing.

I know all three of us have stated that some form of intense introspective or euphoric experience expanding event can occur, so it is not like we said they have no value in exploration of your minds odder aspects. What has been said is that nothing hands you enlightment, and that people can have accidents, and that the unaware have no way to confirm what drug they are about to receive, and that the long term path of drug use has many down sides. Not one of those statements is contriversial or debatable, except whether they can grant true enlightenment, and I am totally ok with anyone who wants to discuss how they feel this is not true.

Most of your previous posts have been fearmongering. As you admit below by your bringing up of crack...

At this point many are just debating and refuse to back down because they enjoy a fight or being difficult. Here is an example of me 'backing down', LSD and mushrooms have allmost no addictive quality, so refering to crack was overly dramatic. Also, I HAVE gained interesting experience widening events many times on either of them. But, I have actually said both things earier. It is like you want to fight against anyone expressing true doubts or cautions to the young readers. You say it does not matter because a 14 year old has no buisness, but many of our members are teens.

I want nothing but the truth to be told, I've not said that drugs are harmless without danger or should be consumed by everyone. It's a personal choice and not something I believe is being handled well by prohibition. Young readers can figure for themselves what is the right decision and what is the wrong decision for themselves, thanks to the internet this information is widely available in places like erowid. I would not recommend anyone under that age of 18 to partake in any hallucinogenics and I'd never recommend anyone take up smoking tobacco, slamming heroin, or smoking crack..

You say that people can go to a music festival and find a reputable dealer, but that is risky for legal reasons

And what form of finding and procuring illegal drugs isn't risky????? lol

That's the risk you take in a society that tries to enforce their morality on it's citizens.

and no guarentee that the drugs are what he claims.

The youth already have their connections.

Here is the short of it, all 3 of us older ex-hippyish types want to let teens know true things we feel we know aboout the whole thing, and that seems to piss you off, even though we pretty much all admit the addictive potential is low and that people can have intense thought provoking experiences. So what are you arguing about. I assume it is that you feel the public should let each individual try not to abuse anything while allowing open access to all?

The seeming ignorance and your obvious lack of modern experience with the drug trade, procuring, and quality of drugs is seething at the edges. Basically anyone with any modern experience can tell your clueless. I'm sorry I had to be the one to inform you that being an ex-hippy, means that you are an ex.. and no longer part of the community, and thus... completely clueless. But I see you can source old studies from the 80's, gratuitous.

I do not think any of us said that is not one way that our culture could be, and no one said the individual does not have the right to do as they wish with their own bodies, so why the objections to some honest words of caution? Children are reading every word we write, and giving them a fair and balanced amount of info seems like a good idea. How do you know a half dozen 14 year olds will not go take acid because people say it expands the mind? Fine if they choose to do that, it is their own responsability to not abuse drugs, but what harm comes from old guys sharing the experience they feel they have?

Your experiences are dated. And out of touch with the reality of the modern world.

Fair and balanced... Here you go. A quote by you.

Originally Posted by sivason

In general "drugs are bad....MmmK?"

I guess you get your use of Fair and Balanced from the Fox News Corp...

Here are two points that are not meant to be mean, but does show that you perhaps have only a basic knowledge of the drug trade.

Oh yes.. Old documents.. Your knowledge of the drug trade comes from old studies? Hmmmmmmmmm

You act like it is foolish to say some mushrooms are pcp. You asked how anyone could not see it was a shitake covered in powder. They either use standard pizza mushrooms and dry them out, to fake liberty caps, or they can use the hay maker mushrooms that grow on lawns to fake true psilocybin. They disolve the drug like pcp in acetone which will absorb evenly into all the flesh, and then for good measure they add a touch of purple food color lightly injected into some of the stems with an insulin needle. Why would anyone do that? PCP is cheap to make and hard to sell, while mushrooms are fairly time consuming to make, but sell in unlimited quantities. Like I said, a dishonest drug dealer. Here is a link, EMCDDA | Hallucinogenic mushrooms
Here is the relevant part ....""Reports from the United States suggest that often mushrooms sold as hallucinogenic mushrooms prove to be normal grocery-bought mushrooms laced with LSD, PCP (phencyclidine) or other substances. In an 11-year study, 886 samples that were said to be psilocybin were analysed. Only 28 percent of these were hallucinogenic mushrooms, while 35 percent were other drugs, mostly LSD or PCP, and 37 percent contained no drug at all."".... So, perhaps there are some things you do not realize? It actually sounds like less than half of the magic mushrooms actually are what people claim.

It's foolish to believe every anti-drug study put out. That's the whole point. Propaganda is not a new technique in the information war. Want mushrooms? Find a grower. It's not that hard. You can order kits online and have them shipped to your door, it's that easy.

I've never ever ever gotten PCP mushrooms, trust me I'd notice the difference. Not just from the completely different feeling between psilocybin and a diss-associative experience of PCP... but from the fact that I eat mushrooms from grocery stores, and I know they don't look anything like the mushrooms picked or grown to get high on, it's called mycology.. look it up.

Also, you state that acid is LSD as other drugs are not put on paper. Again showing that you do not have a very keen knowledge of the drug trade. What you are doing is trying to promote these drugs by dissing on any cautions we have offered, despite many of them being valid. But talk is cheap so lets look at facts. Here is a link, Erowid DOB Vault : LSD or DOB?
Here is the part that makes my case very clear,..."""Another hallucinogen is purveyed in blotter paper units. That agent is 4-bromo-2,5-dimethoxyamphetamine, known frequently in laboratory studies as DOB but also as bromo-DMA (1). According to 19 anonymous brief notations in the Drug Enforcement Administration bulletin Microgram (vols. VI-XIV, 1973-1981), since 1972 DOB has repeatedly been found sold in blotter paper doses in the United States, New Zealand, Australia, the United Kingdom, West Germany, and Greece. Extractable drug averaged .93-2.8 mg per dosage unit for analyses from the United States. Delliou (1) found individual squares to contain 1.4-4.6 mg. In most sales of DOB on blotter paper, it was being misrepresented as LSD (caveat emptor!), to which it is unrelated chemically....""
From W. Marvin Davis, PhD
Vol 139, Dec, 1982, 1649
American Journal of Psychiatry

Didn't say it wasn't possible. Theirs always fakes and stuff that is similar.. same with MDMA and MDA... Though getting either one of those isn't much more than a lesser experience...

Talk is cheap, and when your talking it's apparently extremely dated information on what's available in the market.

You do realize the problem with citing studies that are pushed by drug enforcement agencies right?

LSD is not in heavy demand in comparison to MDMA.... and generally when it's around, it's legit. So let's legalize all drugs, and than quantity and quality is guaranteed.. You know about as much as any other industry.. so not that much.

And once again.. it's not the 1980's anymore. You realize it's 2013 right?

Death cell:

Drug use proponents have been calling non-drug users "out of touch" since at least the 1960's, this isn't a 1980's vs 2010's kind of thing. Its a matter of you defining healthy behavior in terms of yourself and you own circle of friends, then pretending that anyone who is different from you has something wrong with them. This is a narrow, bullying attitude. We have been presenting an argument for a possible lifestyle choice, and stating our perceptions in support of that. Criticizing our viewpoints, arguments, and personal choices with rational arguments is perfectly legitimate, and I would be happy to speak to those criticisms. But for the most part your criticisms are based on straw men: you're assigning beliefs and lifestyle habits to us that we don't have and attacking us for those. For instance, nobody here is saying that marijuana is even remotely as bad as heroin, much less "worse".

The reason Sivason assumed you're younger than you, if I may presume that for him, is he gave you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that your cavalier attitude towards the suffering of addicts and LSD-'fried' people is due to lack of experience, as opposed to having a hard heart. You can do as much acid as you want and I have no problem with that, and I'll support you if you try to change the laws to gain more freedom in that regard. But I'm not going to stay silent while you try to influence other people with claims that I perceive to be misleading and dangerous to people's health. My friend was a math major, and he had to drop out after doing too much LSD because he couldn't do the higher level math any more. I care about that. Even if you don't care about that, or if I'm somehow wrong about it, I still have an obligation to people like him to say what I see. This is not entirely unlike how you are moved say something when other people make arguments that appear contrary to what what you believe and value. A difference here is that Sivason, and Sageous, and myself care very much about the mental and physical health of possible future drug users. I'm not seeing that you do, or you wouldn't be so antagonistic about what we're saying. You'd just be agreeing with us in spirit and making distinctions between your views and ours, much how I have been doing with Sivason. If you don't care about them that's fine, or if you do care in a way that isn't obvious to us, that's fine too. I'm just trying to be clear about what we're trying to say, since you have been systematically mischaracterizing it.

When I was 20 I was working to pay for college. When other people complained about how hard it is to work and go to school, without help from parents, I didn't have any sympathy for them. It wasn't any problem for me, and I was too stupid to recognize that other people aren't all like me and can't be 'responsible' in quite my manner even if they wanted to. Your attitude towards drug abusers is very similar. Since you are so far able to stay in control, you view it as their failing if they have problems, and view responsibility for that failing to be separable from the characteristics of the drugs. At least that's what it looks to everyone like you're saying. But other people aren't like you, and you're going to change too. Ten or twenty years from now you might no longer be able to stay in control. Clearly you accept that risk, and that's fine. But its wrong to imply that other people can all just do what you do if they want to, and its no concern to us if they don't or can't. And there is also the issue of subtle adverse effects of drugs besides addiction and overdose. We haven't said a lot to support our views on those, but for the most part you haven't been open to that, you've just ridiculed whatever we have said as hopelessly ill-informed and bogged the discussion down with criticisms of things we are not saying.

Sivason: I don't think I can be reasonably characterized as an old or ex-hippie unless having had Hendrix painted on my jacket and having attended a relatively recent Tool concert qualifies me, which I doubt. I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to simplify the situation by pointing that out, lest someone else try to attribute my anti-drug arguments to you and Sageous.

Its true that I'm a bore at a party, unless its a party where people attempt to share their transcendent experiences, sober, and argue about Patanjali or Laotse. I didn't ask to be invited to any parties though. I just expressed a wistful desire to be able to share what I care about with people who's intuitions and reasoning abilities aren't degraded by drug use. If anyone contends that their drug use is compatible with such explorations, then bring it on, show me. If you value what I value, to anything like the same extent, you can't help but hope to give something of what you have learned to others, if you're reasonably comfortable they won't abuse it. We can share dreams. We can talk about our experiences. We can speculate about big questions. If you're not interested in doing any of this in an internet forum, we can even do it telepathetically instead, within limits.

If you're not interested in any of that, or can't do it, that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. There's no reason that my interests and understanding should measure what is meaningful to someone else. But then that just confirms part of what I was alleging about hallucinogen use, that people who are doing hallucinogens do not seem to be developing much in the 'spiritual growth' areas that I'm interested in, or concerned about it, and instead they're doing something else.

I'm actually extremely busy right now, trying to help my wife and kids move 2000 miles while I work somewhere else. I've posted to try to support Sageous and Sivason only because I care about what they're trying to say, and my perspective might add something since its a little bit different than theirs. And I'm always willing to try to make room to talk 'personal growth', if we can find any common ground for that. But if everybody is pretty happy with the approach they've been taking to the conversation, and doesn't think that anything is going to come of it except hurled insults, then like Sageous I've said what I have to say and would rather not be involved further.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Death cell:

Drug use proponents have been calling non-drug users "out of touch" since at least the 1960's, this isn't a 1980's vs 2010's kind of thing.

I'm not a drug use or not drug use proponent. I'm a legality proponent because it should be up to the individual. I'm saying he's out of touch, because as a non-drug user; he has no direct experience with the market.. And it's not the 1980's, crack cocaine is not the hottest item on the streets.

Its a matter of you defining healthy behavior in terms of yourself and you own circle of friends, then pretending that anyone who is different from you has something wrong with them.

No it's not about being different, it's about fearmongering and hilarity of those who really don't know what their talking about.

This is a narrow, bullying attitude. We have been presenting an argument for a possible lifestyle choice, and stating our perceptions in support of that. Criticizing our viewpoints, arguments, and personal choices with rational arguments is perfectly legitimate, and I would be happy to speak to those criticisms. But for the most part your criticisms are based on straw men: you're assigning beliefs and lifestyle habits to us that we don't have and attacking us for those. For instance, nobody here is saying that marijuana is even remotely as bad as heroin, much less "worse".

I don't care about your personal choices, I care about your lack of knowledge on the subject and your pretending like your some sort of expert on the subject.. because for instance I can google some old studies saying some things about drugs in the 80's. Of course that wasn't you.

The reason Sivason assumed you're younger than you, if I may presume that for him, is he gave you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that your cavalier attitude towards the suffering of addicts and LSD-'fried' people is due to lack of experience, as opposed to having a hard heart.

Yeah.. theirs just so many acid fried people now-a-days.. you seem em all over he place. Addicts need to help themselves, I am not their custodian, master or keeper.

You can do as much acid as you want and I have no problem with that, and I'll support you if you try to change the laws to gain more freedom in that regard. But I'm not going to stay silent while you try to influence other people with claims that I perceive to be misleading and dangerous to people's health.

None of my claims are misleading or dangerous to people's health, so it looks like you can stay silent.

My friend was a math major, and he had to drop out after doing too much LSD because he couldn't do the higher level math any more. I care about that.

Oh yeah? He couldn't do higher level math any more? Than stop taking the acid. Or.. wait.. is this story completely made up? It is the internet after all.

Even if you don't care about that, or if I'm somehow wrong about it, I still have an obligation to people like him to say what I see.

And I have the obligation to tell people what I see, the same propaganda that has been spilled out of the governments mouths for years. Don't do acid, your brain will be like a fried egg. Delicious. If you take acid you won't forget how to do math, you just can't take the acid every day.. that's called stupid.

his is not entirely unlike how you are moved say something when other people make arguments that appear contrary to what what you believe and value. A difference here is that Sivason, and Sageous, and myself care very much about the mental and physical health of possible future drug users.

I say simply do your own research, and don't trust a bunch of old men on a forum.

I'm not seeing that you do, or you wouldn't be so antagonistic about what we're saying. You'd just be agreeing with us in spirit and making distinctions between your views and ours, much how I have been doing with Sivason. If you don't care about them that's fine, or if you do care in a way that isn't obvious to us, that's fine too. I'm just trying to be clear about what we're trying to say, since you have been systematically mischaracterizing it.

Not at all actually. I don't agree with anyone in spirit when what they say is false. I don't agree with lies.

When I was 20 I was working to pay for college. When other people complained about how hard it is to work and go to school, without help from parents, I didn't have any sympathy for them. It wasn't any problem for me, and I was too stupid to recognize that other people aren't all like me and can't be 'responsible' in quite my manner even if they wanted to. Your attitude towards drug abusers is very similar. Since you are so far able to stay in control, you view it as their failing if they have problems, and view responsibility for that failing to be separable from the characteristics of the drugs.

Yeah.. man I'm able to stay in control, you guys really are a hoot.. In George W Bush voice.. I'm just trying to worry about your healths and stuffs hehehehehe

It's amazing I can stay in control, that mary jane hasn't led me into a pit of nothingness..

No good for nothings like Carl Sagan.. how did they stay in control their entire lives? I don't get it.. Because drugs are bad mmmkaayy.

I don't need to recognize that other people are addicts, other people are stupid as well, that's life.

At least that's what it looks to everyone like you're saying. But other people aren't like you, and you're going to change too. Ten or twenty years from now you might no longer be able to stay in control.

There it is man.. I might just lose control man.. and smoke weed all day and quit my job man.. because drugs are bad mmmkayy..

Like I said.. you guys are fake. You're pretending like you understand drugs, but don't understand that the majority of people who use drugs.. DON'T EVER HAVE A PROBLEM.

How many people drink alcohol? How many people are alcoholics?

In ten or twenty years.. my internment ... maybe once a year use of hallucinogenics and consistent cannabis consumption will turn me into a no-good pot addict, scrapping my bowl late into the night looking for that little piece of resin!!!

And than I'll have the gall to watch an entertaining show and eat a sandwich..

I could become a couch potato...

OMG.

Clearly you accept that risk, and that's fine.

There is no risk. My family does not have a history of schizophrenia or other mental issues. The MOST risk I have is procuring illegal things. That's the cruel fact about most of these illegal drugs, you're more likely to get fucked legally, than any health issues.

Doing ACID or other harder hallucinogenics is something that is meant to be done on occasion, it's not I repeat not expected to be a daily, weekly, or even monthly ritual. People that do these drugs consistently for extended periods of time, are morons.

But its wrong to imply that other people can all just do what you do if they want to, and its no concern to us if they don't or can't.

Of course it's not. That's the whole point of a free-society.. Unless what someone is doing is affecting me or someone else, it really isn't any of mine or yours business. That's why violent crimes, I'm against.

And there is also the issue of subtle adverse effects of drugs besides addiction and overdose. We haven't said a lot to support our views on those, but for the most part you haven't been open to that, you've just ridiculed whatever we have said as hopelessly ill-informed and bogged the discussion down with criticisms of things we are not saying.

It's called reading between the lines, I can smell when someone is just bsing. You are saying them, your trying to veil and mask them behind a wall of no .. we aren't against that we just think all drugs are bad mmkay. These are things you are saying, I know it hurts. Things like (I'll eventually lose control in the future) show your true lack of understanding or any positive opinion on drugs.. It's only negative to you, but you've been associated with enough people that you grin and smile while thinking, druggie. You're the kind of guy I wouldn't enjoy being around, there's nothing worse than a guy who thinks he's better than you.

Its true that I'm a bore at a party, unless its a party where people attempt to share their transcendent experiences, sober, and argue about Patanjali or Laotse.

Do you not know what a party is? You want a meeting of the minds, a party is a social function meant for joviality and entertainment. Sober parties are possible with games and other things.. but never is a party meant as a place to share transcendent experiences and argue about obscure topics.

I didn't ask to be invited to any parties though. I just expressed a wistful desire to be able to share what I care about with people who's intuitions and reasoning abilities aren't degraded by drug use. If anyone contends that their drug use is compatible with such explorations, then bring it on, show me. If you value what I value, to anything like the same extent, you can't help but hope to give something of what you have learned to others, if you're reasonably comfortable they won't abuse it. We can share dreams. We can talk about our experiences. We can speculate about big questions. If you're not interested in doing any of this in an internet forum, we can even do it telepathetically instead, within limits.

Great but when do you live? Between all the desire for knowledge, a neverending quest is a lofty.. to ignore the call of the Aquarian age... The mere use of substances, alcohol, marijuana, other is an experience and an exploration; you can't discuss a drug experience you actually have to experience it.

If you're not interested in any of that, or can't do it, that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. There's no reason that my interests and understanding should measure what is meaningful to someone else. But then that just confirms part of what I was alleging about hallucinogen use, that people who are doing hallucinogens do not seem to be developing much in the 'spiritual growth' areas that I'm interested in, or concerned about it, and instead they're doing something else.

Blah blah meaning.. There is no meaning. That is the point. Meaning is for the building of cultures and civilizations, but life itself has no meaning. It's the journey and nothing but. The "spiritual growth" area's that you may be interested in, may not have any relevance. You can learn from other people, people are doing something else, because that's the individual experience but you seem to want to miss out on it because it's not what you want to do.. that's how you miss out on experiences.. You'll be nothing but who you always are if you don't open yourself up to other peoples experiences, and to follow them on their journeys at certain points.. a life of a singular goal is one life less experiences.. knowledge is merely one part of your existence.

I'm actually extremely busy right now, trying to help my wife and kids move 2000 miles while I work somewhere else. I've posted to try to support Sageous and Sivason only because I care about what they're trying to say, and my perspective might add something since its a little bit different than theirs. And I'm always willing to try to make room to talk 'personal growth', if we can find any common ground for that. But if everybody is pretty happy with the approach they've been taking to the conversation, and doesn't think that anything is going to come of it except hurled insults, then like Sageous I've said what I have to say and would rather not be involved further.

When you come into a discussion and assume that if your not an addict now, eventually you will be.. than you come into the discussion with an extreme bias that is unforgivable and clearly obvious to anyone who can read beyond the surface of someones words.

Deathcell, By this point I am taking it that the fact "Drugs are bad, MMMkay?" was a joke has gone straight over your head, perhaps becaause when you watched South Park, you were too stoned to remember what you saw. It was the catch phrase for the school counseler Mr. Mackie. I use it as a joke, when i have said anything that could be taken as pro-drug, I throw in that comment, because it is silly. It has been fun watching you totally miss the common reference and make a big deal of it.


Oh, you will hate this,,, My family smoked pot before I was able to walk, so all of my friends had to be children of other stoners. Logically we all started smoking pot between 12 and 14. I had heard what sounded like BS propaganda about it being a 'gateway' drug. Guess what? Every one of us got into acid, then eventually 3/4 of us (not me) got into meth. So, from observation, maybe it is a gate way drug.

Of the origional crowd of about a dozen, I am the only one who achoplished anything in my life. Of the 5 closest friends I still know of, they all built lives based around smoking pot. The other drugs may come and go, but every day of their lives they smoked pot. Two are now in prison, and 3 are unemployed. One of the guys who went to prison, spent over 2 years living in his car, but would still spend every dime he could find to stay supplied with pot. So, now, please entertain us, let's see what you say now. How about "you are probably making that up, because you are now part of the machine set upon ruining the dream of a world where LSD is sold from vending machines?"

Originally Posted by sivason

Sageous, Shadowofwind, others, are we all finding this guy entertaining? I think we are all on the edge of our seats to see how many silly things we can get this guy to spout.

Yes and yes!

I'm guessing the next response will be something like, "Yeah, well clearly everything you say is a lie. I know that because I've read between your lines and am therefore able to judge you at will!" Pretty silly indeed...

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

PlanesWalker, how about you have a look through your own posts on the thread? I can assure you that you have progressed the thread just as little as you make out that sageous did.
You start out by saying this.

Without any explanation you just state that it is linked, can you please give us some proof?

You proceed to post.

Yet you don't seem to be using logic or reason to back up your argument either. How about instead of just pissing around you and getting upset about something insignificant like an internet row, you actually give us some solid information to work on and analyze. I'd be happy to reply sensibly and properly if you can come up with a good post.
Don't link me a video, just tell me straight out why you believe DMT is related to dreams and we can go on from that.

Holy hell man, you too huh. It's called research man, do some. You really believe I would just state something blatantly like that huh.

I'm going to say it as simple as i can. There is evidence that links elevated levels of DMT to the moments before a person dies, OBEs, Meditation, when your Dreaming, and is created naturally by your freakin brain everyday. Even other animals and a lot of plants produce DMT. Why? I can only speculate.

I didn't realize I was supposed to be teaching you. You all speak with such conviction I naturally assumed you had the knowledge to speak about DMT. I have said what I need to. I seek to discuss, not educate. Hit me up when you get your head out of the sand.

Summarizing: Our views and attitudes are arrogant and uninformed, but they are not in any case our real views and attitudes, and the experiences we say inform them are likely not our real experiences. We do all this because we have a hidden agenda to take away DeathCell's drugs, but he can see through it.

No, I don't find it funny, I'm not that mean spirited. But think I understand why you're saying that. Its hard to know how to answer someone who invents your own thoughts for you, and you're just trying to find a way around the barrier.

PlanesWalker:

The dreams on DMT web sites appear to be remarkably similar to how I experience reality, much more so than what people relate from other drugs. Since much of my experience is gained empathetically, I can't know for certain how much of what I feel and seem to understand would be possible if other people weren't doing DMT. But there also seems to me to be a "prying open my third eye" sort of brutality with the DMT use, and I'd gladly give up my unusual experiences if that were the result of other people stepping away from the drug.

Alcohol of course is also a natural molecule, essential to the self-regulation of the body. I don't think it follows from that though that consuming more of it than the body manufactures for itself is necessarily a good idea. Likewise with DMT. In any case its not what I choose. But from where I stand its true as you say that the drug produces an enhanced dream experience, whatever the other downsides may or may not be. Its not reasonable in my view to dismiss the stated experiences of users, even if a person thinks that their interpretations of those experiences are often highly doubtful.

Ok, that takes us back in the direction of being on topic. Can anyone give personal examples of how they feel hallucinogens made them experience something helpful. Herminehess did, so now I will, but I hope we can stay tuned to this idea.

One thing I gained from my experiences was insight into how my thought are controlled and regulated. This came from having the whole nerve system going haywire. I got to observe whatemtal acts were needed ti focus and preform basic acts. Normally we do not need to struggle to say undo your fly and pee without doing it wrong. In having to observe why I could not function I got insight into the daily process involved in NOT peeing on myself. I do not mean the steps like stand in front of the toilet. I mean what happens that lets you stand up and not fall over, what process goes into staying focused enough to remember not to get distracted midstream.


Next? Seriously, chime in if you feel any experience was thought provoking or spiritual. We have already gone over the "drugs are bad, Mmmkay?" angle, so lets share what has been experienced so everyone can get an idea, without needing to do it themselves.

Originally Posted by sivason

Sageous, Shadowofwind, others, are we all finding this guy entertaining? I think we are all on the edge of our seats to see how many silly things we can get this guy to spout. How about another go at? Wait and see, this should be good...

Glad you find the truth entertaining.

Deathcell, By this point I am taking it that the fact "Drugs are bad, MMMkay?" was a joke has gone straight over your head, perhaps becaause when you watched South Park, you were too stoned to remember what you saw. It was the catch phrase for the school counseler Mr. Mackie. I use it as a joke, when i have said anything that could be taken as pro-drug, I throw in that comment, because it is silly. It has been fun watching you totally miss the common reference and make a big deal of it.

You're not funny. Generally when people use jokes, they use them in a way that provides entertainment.. But seeing as how your uptight, all you manage to do is come off as some burnout from the 80's.

I didn't miss the common reference, but you just aren't very good at delivery.. Good luck on that comedy career.

Oh, you will hate this,,, My family smoked pot before I was able to walk, so all of my friends had to be children of other stoners. Logically we all started smoking pot between 12 and 14. I had heard what sounded like BS propaganda about it being a 'gateway' drug. Guess what? Every one of us got into acid, then eventually 3/4 of us (not me) got into meth. So, from observation, maybe it is a gate way drug.

Like I said earlier, you're just a propaganda believer masquerading as something else. You believe what the gubernment tells you.. I bet you all had caffeine before anything else.. so it looks like we found the real gateway drug.. Anyone who says they believe in the gateway drug bs is obviously not one who thinks for himself, their is zero scientific evidence supporting this idea, and it's nothing but Reagans drug war propaganda, to scare people. If you believe that? Why should I believe anything you say, your clearly easy to trick.



LOL

Of the origional crowd of about a dozen, I am the only one who achoplished anything in my life.

And I'm betting your socio-economic status growing up had a thousand times more to do with where your friends ended up than any substance.

Of the 5 closest friends I still know of, they all built lives based around smoking pot. The other drugs may come and go, but every day of their lives they smoked pot. Two are now in prison, and 3 are unemployed. One of the guys who went to prison, spent over 2 years living in his car, but would still spend every dime he could find to stay supplied with pot. So, now, please entertain us, let's see what you say now. How about "you are probably making that up, because you are now part of the machine set upon ruining the dream of a world where LSD is sold from vending machines?"

LOL OMG You are a hoot. I know lots of people who go to prison from smoking pot... OMG.. You are hilarious.. Those stoners who only smoke pot and live in their cars.. omg... It's the pot I tell you, the pot!

Does it hurt when you lie?

Let's see.. I know about a hundred regular pot smokers.... The only ones who are "unemployed" are retired. Some of the hardest working folks I know, smoke. From construction, tree work, to owning their own business that runs a particular sector in my area of the state.. it's the GO TO PLACE for this type of auto service, holding an entire cities contract.

You're clueless, if you were raised in poor communities, your chances of success are far less than if you grew up in middle america, it's not the substance.. it's so many other factors.

I'm guessing the next response will be something like, "Yeah, well clearly everything you say is a lie. I know that because I've read between your lines and am therefore able to judge you at will!" Pretty silly indeed...

Well this is the internet and it's pretty fucking easy to lie.. and when people say ridiculous things about people who only smoked pot going to prison.. it's either A. A lie.. or B. Stretching of the truth. Their is obviously A LOT more going on in anyone's life than just pot smoking if their homeless or in prison. It's not my fault he's twisting a possibly real situation that he knows of by leaving out facts that are key and important to the discussion so it can benefit his argument.

Summarizing: Our views and attitudes are arrogant and uninformed, but they are not in any case our real views and attitudes, and the experiences we say inform them are likely not our real experiences. We do all this because we have a hidden agenda to take away DeathCell's drugs, but he can see through it.

No, I don't find it funny, I'm not that mean spirited. But think I understand why you're saying that. Its hard to know how to answer someone who invents your own thoughts for you, and you're just trying to find a way around the barrier.

Summarizing the Summarize: Sivason and shadowofwind both have attitudes of people who don't have any clue what they are talking about but want to pretend that they do. Because drugs are bad, mmkay. I know people they smoked weed and now they are in jail and homeless.. True story bro. Throw in horror story and old statistics.And.. yourself shadow when your claiming that

Almost all drug users can see that other drug users are killing themselves with it, but they usually have a weird chemically fueled superiority complex where they imagine they are not like those other people.

Shows that your just another drone, because obviously all drug users are killing themselves.. Like Carl Sagan.. it's amazing he lived as long as he did, and did some important scientific work.... With that cheeba smoking, he should have been in jail.

If your anecdotes and stories weren't so obviously fake or just wrong, I wouldn't have to call you out..


Trying to understand the experience of drugs without taking them is like trying to have someone explain to you how a roller coaster feels. It's all like wooosh man.

You don't have to love me, but you will respect me

Originally Posted by PlanesWalker

Holy hell man, you too huh. It's called research man, do some. You really believe I would just state something blatantly like that huh.

Unfortunately this is the internet, so I don't believe the first thing that anyone says because there are alot of blind followers around.

Originally Posted by PlanesWalker

I didn't realize I was supposed to be teaching you. I naturally assumed you had the knowledge to speak about DMT. I have said what I need to. I seek to discuss, not educate. Hit me up when you get your head out of the sand.

This is by far the most unlogical statement on this thread so far. I asked you kindly to have a discussion with me, but since you seem to do anything but actually discuss DMT you just go on into a full on assault. I don't know what kind of problem you have with me but it seems like you think I'm some kind of 5th grade bully provoking you. You do realise that none of us know you and we are not trying to insult your intelligence. If you are going to keep replying like that maybe this forum isn't for you.
As I said earlier, I try not to retain any bad feelings of other members so I'd still be happy to discuss if you are willing to.
I truly hope we can just progress normally on from now without having any more arguments, agreed?

Sivason, what you're doing seems over the top to me, I don't understand it.

Originally Posted by sivason

Sageous, Shadowofwind, others, are we all finding this guy entertaining? I think we are all on the edge of our seats to see how many silly things we can get this guy to spout. How about another go at? Wait and see, this should be good...


Deathcell, By this point I am taking it that the fact "Drugs are bad, MMMkay?" was a joke has gone straight over your head, perhaps becaause when you watched South Park, you were too stoned to remember what you saw. It was the catch phrase for the school counseler Mr. Mackie. I use it as a joke, when i have said anything that could be taken as pro-drug, I throw in that comment, because it is silly. It has been fun watching you totally miss the common reference and make a big deal of it.


Oh, you will hate this,,, My family smoked pot before I was able to walk, so all of my friends had to be children of other stoners. Logically we all started smoking pot between 12 and 14. I had heard what sounded like BS propaganda about it being a 'gateway' drug. Guess what? Every one of us got into acid, then eventually 3/4 of us (not me) got into meth. So, from observation, maybe it is a gate way drug.

Of the origional crowd of about a dozen, I am the only one who achoplished anything in my life. Of the 5 closest friends I still know of, they all built lives based around smoking pot. The other drugs may come and go, but every day of their lives they smoked pot. Two are now in prison, and 3 are unemployed. One of the guys who went to prison, spent over 2 years living in his car, but would still spend every dime he could find to stay supplied with pot. So, now, please entertain us, let's see what you say now. How about "you are probably making that up, because you are now part of the machine set upon ruining the dream of a world where LSD is sold from vending machines?"

I personally think this guy (DeathCell) has a point. Shadowofwind, aren't you as guilty of what you are saying DeathCell is doing yourself? After all, you are: "[d]efining healthy behavior in terms of yourself and you[r] own circle of friends, then pretending that anyone who is different from you has something wrong with them." Drug users, in terms of yourself and your circle of friends are doing something unhealthy. To him and his friends, they are potentially doing something healthy (if, for isntance, they claimed gaining insight from acid was healthy or something). How is it wrong for him to believe that? If it is, it is because you are defining what is healthy behaviour based on YOU and YOUR group of friends. If you are going to criticize someone for something so specific you should at least try and not be guilty of it yourself.

Another thing, the mere fact that marijuana use preceded your acid use speaks nothing of its gateway potential, at least not alone in a statement like that. You most likely took tylenol, advil, caffeine, and many more drugs before you took acid or smoked pot, and obviously it would be silly to claim that those drugs had a gateway effect and led to you go on to try harder things. There is nothing about marijuana use that compels you to try harder drugs. Hell, if marijuana were legal to use, I would have never used any of the other drugs I have used. I would have been perfectly content with just toking along, all safe from the law and enjoying life. Either the crowd you were hanging with, the lifestyle you began living after smoking pot, or the dealers you got it from exposed you to the harder drugs and you made the conscious and personal decision to try something different on your own. To say it's marijuana's fault is bullshit and a cop out to avoid any sort of personal responsibility for the decisions you have made in your life. Another big point about your friends in prison--how many of them are there on drug charges? If drugs weren't illegal I'm willing to bet most, if not all of those friends would be out of jail right now. Guess what? Out of my group of friends, only a small portion used drugs and 90% of them still have accomplished nothing with their lives. In fact, out of my two best friends, me and one of them were major stoners and we are both fairly successful and have careers, whereas our buddy who is straightedge (other than alcohol from time to time) is working a factory job and is stuck in our shitty, Podunk town.

Drug use can be unhealthy, even extremely unhealthy. However, your arguments so far have been god awful, and there are many behaviours society looks upon with no problem at all that are similarly unhealthy, if not more so. Good for you if you do not do drugs, and good for you if you try and convince someone without a solid opinion on them that they shouldn't use them. Just make sure not to judge those that do use them and similarly try and convince someone to use them for their possible benefits (of which they are probably more aware of than you). Treat others like you'd have them treat you

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Sivason, what you're doing seems over the top to me, I don't understand it.

I kind of agree, Sivason; sometimes it's better just to ignore, or keep up the struggle to get back on topic if it's important enough to, or both. Yours and Dutchraptor's were valiant if fruitless efforts, BTW.

For what it's worth though, I did "like" DeathCell on another thread, because I thought he deserved it -- does that count?