Thread: Michael Raduga's The Phase?

Yes, It felt just like if I rolled out of bed and fell to the floor. But after awakening, I realized that the room I found myself in after getting up was not my room - it was very different. So, why should I assume I was in another real room and not a dream one ? - mine was not for sure!

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

room I found myself in after getting up was not my room - it was very different.

Cause it's the bloody Real-Time Zone.
Nevermind..

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Yes, It felt just like if I rolled out of bed and fell to the floor. But after awakening, I realized that the room I found myself in after getting up was not my room - it was very different. So, why should I assume I was in another real room and not a dream one ? - mine was not for sure!

Well, as mimihigurashi said:

Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

Cause it's the bloody Real-Time Zone.
Nevermind..

LOL

I wouldn't assume you were in a "real" room, but I also wouldn't automatically assume that you were in a "dream" room. It is possible that you projected into the astral dimension. The farther from the physical dimension you shift into the astral, the less like the physical world the environment is. Many times I project into astral versions of my old room of my old house, or my old room of my grandparent's house, these being in totally different spacial locations than the physical place of projection. There are differences between lucid dreaming and astral projection experiences that allow the projector to roughly distinguish which experience one is having after a sufficient degree of insight is attained, including differences in exit sensations, levels of lucidity and awareness, the ability to navigate one's environment, the stability of one's environment, the ability to manifest one's experience, the strength of one's perceptual senses, etc.

I initially doubted my own OBEs as well. I suppose the particular label that we give these experiences is of little value, but rather it is what we do with these experiences that counts.

Take care

Since Astral plan existence is only a supposition that has never been proved (and I don't see how it could be), and the fact that the brain is absolutely able to build the so called astral projections is a simpler and non the less valid explanation, I don't see why people continue to use affirmations beginning by "Astral projection is ....".

So when the room is 100% matching the real one, we go to the "out of body" hypothesis, and when something doesn't matche, "oh, well, it is an astral projection".... this sounds a little bit ...easy and brainless to me...

I have experimented LD, SP and OBE's and however real like and brainstorming these experiences are, I really don't see how I could honestly affirm that OBEs (and so called AP) are anything else than an alternative kind of LD, like sleep paralysis are, and everything Raduga calls "the phase".
A hallucinated experience that the brain is clearly able to produce... it really sounds useless to look for other fantasy-like explanations... which will never be proved by anyone since it is 100% based on non physical and non verifiable hypothesis.. especially Astral projection.
The "out of the body but in the real world" hypothesis could be investigated by bringing back verifiable data but you can not exclude that the informations seen during the OBE come from other explanations (subconscious knowing, remote viewing, intuition, luck...) and that they are integrated in the Dream scenario.
But Astral Projection, really.... is only based on real-like and strong experience + belief, nothing more.

Originally Posted by VinceField

Well, as mimihigurashi said:



LOL

I wouldn't assume you were in a "real" room, but I also wouldn't automatically assume that you were in a "dream" room. It is possible that you projected into the astral dimension. The farther from the physical dimension you shift into the astral, the less like the physical world the environment is. Many times I project into astral versions of my old room of my old house, or my old room of my grandparent's house, these being in totally different spacial locations than the physical place of projection. There are differences between lucid dreaming and astral projection experiences that allow the projector to roughly distinguish which experience one is having after a sufficient degree of insight is attained, including differences in exit sensations, levels of lucidity and awareness, the ability to navigate one's environment, the stability of one's environment, the ability to manifest one's experience, the strength of one's perceptual senses, etc.

I initially doubted my own OBEs as well. I suppose the particular label that we give these experiences is of little value, but rather it is what we do with these experiences that counts.

Take care

Indeed. Are you familiar with frequency, Vince?

In response to Kaan, there probably are ways to verify this--they just have not been developed yet. However, it was not very long ago that we did not have a scientific basis for lucid dreaming. Tibetan yogis have discussed using the "special dream body" to travel out of body for at least 1000 years. I think there is something here, but it is certainly a subjective business of judging one's experience (either in retrospect or in the moment).

Tibetan yogis have discussed using the "special dream body" to travel out of body for at least 1000 years.

I don't know if Tibetan yogis really did this or if this is a kind of urban myth, but if they did, they could have been thinking for centuries that they travel somewhere while they simply dream and experiment the phase I still don't see how we could know what really happens.

Lucid dreaming is something technically easy to scientifically demonstrate because of the eye movements and recent EEG.
A lucid Dreamer can send clues to the external world by the use of a code with his moving eyes and prove that he is dreaming and that he is conscious that he is dreaming.

Astral travel is based on alternative realities that are not physically connected to our waking realm.
It is like trying to explain what this blue balloon is doing in the middle of the corridor.
In the one hand there are children on the other room that could have played with it and let it there.
In the other hand, we can not 100% exclude the hypothesis that this balloon comes from a parallel reality, because of some kind of quantum jump.

The Astral hypothesis is like choosing the second explanation in this example while the first one (children that simply forgot the balloon) can perfectly explain how this balloon did arrive in the corridor...

I don't know if I am clear in what I try to explain.
I just want to explain that we should be more prudent when we are talking about AP because it is only an hypothesis and that simpler and maybe more accurate hypothesis can explain this subjective experiences.

Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

Cause it's the bloody Real-Time Zone.
Nevermind..

Yes, I do mind - I just din't have time yesterday to answer.
That was not the case.
What is the Real-time zone?
Coined by Robert Bruce (I've read the book - but dint have any success before Raduga), is a dream like, but perfect replica of the real world, superimposed over the real one. So, you are there, when you are in your room or some other place known to you or objectively verifiable. You move there and you see known and familiar things - that's the real time zone. He says that everything should be as you know it from your waking life, except for a few details (eg a misplaced window) , as this zone can be thought responsive (reality fluctuations).
Now, even in Bruce's view, this zone is a dream-like recreation of a known place...
I have experienced about 15 OBE-like exits and about 80 normal lucid dreams. In my experience, lucids and OBEs-Astrals are about the same thing - the difference is only the initiation (feeling of separation or just beginning of a dream) but appart from that, no real difference...

Originally Posted by VinceField

There are differences between lucid dreaming and astral projection ... including differences in exit sensations, levels of lucidity and awareness, the ability to navigate one's environment, the stability of one's environment, the ability to manifest one's experience, the strength of one's perceptual senses, etc.

Can we look into these differences more?
Do they prove that these are really distinct experiences?

Exit sensations: OBEs begin with separation but in lucids you are right in a dream. Well, WILDs can begin with separation too and are considered dreams...
Levels of lucidity: OBEs have better clarity? In my experience, I had both clear and dull lucids and clear and dull OBE-like experiences...
Navigation? In my experience it was about the same.
Stability? No difference in my experience - even the last time that I rolled out of bed, I dissolved the ceiling and made the night, day...
But if anyone has a different experience, I would love to know. I mean being in a stable place - where reality checks like reading something would be negative - steady, same text, steady objects not changing according to will...
In OBEs you perceive unknown real data? - in dreams you can too (shard dreams, precognitive dreams etch). Also, with remote viewing as Kaan pointed, you can also perceive remote data without leaving your body. So, why should we suggest that in an OBE you do leave your body?
The only objective method that I see to verify that you indeed leave your body (and would satisfy anyone including Kaan ), is the one Bruce suggests: a trained individual, while awake, perceiving a projector when he comes near him - and afterwards independently reporting the same details as the projector does - under controlled laboratory conditions. Something like this, but in a controlled environment:

Spoiler for OBE Verification:

... A few days before he was due to leave, while meditating late at night, I clearly saw Matt's projected real-time double float through the wall and come into the room I was sitting in. He waved cheerfully at me and I slowly waved back at him, without breaking my entranced state — no mean feat in itself — immensely pleased that Matt had finally managed to get out of his body. Matt floated about the room, seemingly having some difficulty with movement and directional control, but apparently thoroughly enjoying himself. He soon floated out of my sight and that was the last I saw of him that night.

Another possibility would be if the projector could somehow interact with the real world and leave some clue to be later found - eg. move a little bit a predetermined very light, but sealed object.
Now, about the astral plane, as Kaan said - and illustrated well with the balloon analogy - there is no way to verify its existence - up to now - so everyone can have his view on this - mine being that it's the same as the dream realm - if it's a real place, so is dreamland...

Originally Posted by VinceField

... I suppose the particular label that we give these experiences is of little value, but rather it is what we do with these experiences that counts.

Yes, that's the important part - but seeking the truth is not bad either

Originally Posted by Kaan

Since Astral plan existence is only a supposition that has never been proved (and I don't see how it could be), and the fact that the brain is absolutely able to build the so called astral projections is a simpler and non the less valid explanation, I don't see why people continue to use affirmations beginning by "Astral projection is ....".

Us humans have a tendency to try to understand our experiences, and part of this understanding is labeling, classifying, and categorizing information according to our working conceptual framework.

So when the room is 100% matching the real one, we go to the "out of body" hypothesis, and when something doesn't matche, "oh, well, it is an astral projection".... this sounds a little bit ...easy and brainless to me...

You caught us. We're brainless!

As I have said, there are distinct differences between LDs and OBEs/APs which are evidence to these being somewhat different levels of experience.

I have experimented LD, SP and OBE's and however real like and brainstorming these experiences are, I really don't see how I could honestly affirm that OBEs (and so called AP) are anything else than an alternative kind of LD, like sleep paralysis are, and everything Raduga calls "the phase".

If you do not have the experiential insight to suggest that OBEs and LDs are different types of experiences, then I agree with you- you don't have the personal evidence to honestly affirm that there is a difference. Others, myself included, do have this insight. It doesn't come with just a few of each type of experience- it comes after countless experiences and experiments in various modes of projected consciousness. Of course, the best we can really do is create a working hypothesis, as the true nature of these experiences is elusive to our limited human minds, so any kind of absolute truth regarding these concepts is probably out of reach.

A hallucinated experience that the brain is clearly able to produce... it really sounds useless to look for other fantasy-like explanations... which will never be proved by anyone since it is 100% based on non physical and non verifiable hypothesis.. especially Astral projection.

The term "astral projection" is simply a label given to a particular type of nonphysical experience that has been found to be worthy of it's own classification separate from lucid dreaming. It seems that lucid dreams are experiences of the "mental body," whereas astral projections are experiences of the "astral body." These two subtle energy bodies have demonstrated different qualities and characteristics which, again, justify different labels.

The "out of the body but in the real world" hypothesis could be investigated by bringing back verifiable data but you can not exclude that the informations seen during the OBE come from other explanations (subconscious knowing, remote viewing, intuition, luck...) and that they are integrated in the Dream scenario.

I agree. It is always best to keep an open mind and not blindly rule out any possibilities.

But Astral Projection, really.... is only based on real-like and strong experience + belief, nothing more.

Isn't every experience, both in and out of the body? We have an experience, and then we try to understand it and classify it in line with our beliefs. To use my favorite example, we could all be brains sitting in vats hooked up to a matrix holographic reality, falsely believing that our bodies and our world are "real." But even though this is a possibility, it does not justify rejecting our current physical experience or abandoning the labels that we use to understand it.

Take care

Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

Indeed. Are you familiar with frequency, Vince?

Yes, in fact, I am frequency.

the fact is that we are talking about the technique elaborated by M. Raduga's who puts LD, OBE, AP, and SP (including alien abduction experiences) on one unique concept / state of mind that he calls "the phase".

Despite these experiences are different by some aspects, they don't need to be something else than alternative forms of the one global state of consciousness that his technique allows to trigger.

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Can we look into these differences more?
Do they prove that these are really distinct experiences?

They don't prove anything, although they certainly indicate that they are different.


OBEs are often accompanied by vibrations and other sensations that are not normally present during WILDs and DEILDs. After a great deal of experience APing, it becomes clear that the strength of vibrations and the presence of other exit sensations directly correlate with the frequency of the energy body and nonphysical dimension that are projected into. Stronger exit sensations seem to be a product of denser and less refined subtle energy body projection, usually resulting in a real-time-zone projection. These vibrations naturally begin to lessen with experience and development, and this correlates with an experience of higher vibratory dimensions of the "astral" and a more refined subtle energy body projection.

I can't recall ever experiencing vibrations during a WILD. This is because a WILD/LDing is a projection of the Mental body, essentially a pure-mind projection. The body in these experiences is created by the mind rather than being a product of a tangible energetic structure linked to the physical body, as is the case in OBEs.

Interestingly, the nonphysical dimensions experienced in LDs are the same as the dimensions experienced in AP, but simply experienced from a different perceptual frequency. It is one energetic structure, but there are different ways of perceiving it depending on one's reference point. Essentially, the mental and astral bodies are connected in a gradient, and many LDs and APs are actually experienced with a combination of aspects of both bodies, or an experience of one body can easily shift to an experience of another body in the same experience.

Because the mental body is of a higher frequency than the astral body, the levels of lucidity, the ability to navigate and direct one's experience, the ability to manifest, the ability to connect with HS, etc, are all much less limited in lucid dreams and higher-level astral projections (or whatever mixture of these is experienced), as these are higher-dimensional experiences not limited by the comparatively dense real-time/lower-astral bodies.
Even movement away from the body is a challenge during some of the lower-level OBEs. I can't recall experiencing anything less than nearly complete freedom during my fully lucid LDs, whereas this is definitely not the case during OBEs.

Originally Posted by Kaan

Despite these experiences are different by some aspects, they don't need to be something else than alternative forms of the one global state of consciousness that his technique allows to trigger.

Very true, although I don't believe they have been presented as anything else. Little harm is done by classifying one's experience according to a shared system of concepts so long as it is done wisely and is grounded in knowledge and experience.

Excuse me vinceField, but all what your are saying is an kind of copy/past of all the OBE/AP books I read 20 years ago.
The fact of repeating theses beliefs like a mantra doesn't make them a solid truth base.
All the usual words are here "vibrations", "frequency", "energy" , "mental body", "energy body" "non physical dimensions" and so on...
You still start with the hypothesis that these things ARE and you arrive to the conclusions that they ARE, ignoring the simple physiological explanations.
The felt vibrations during OBE, dream body separation and other typical differences between the OBE/AP experience and LD/WILD experience, SearcherTMR and I have felt it, and we arrived to the conclusion that the dreaming brain is what produces these experiences.
There is no solid need to imagine other dimensions to explain these hallucinated feelings since the brain is ABSOLUTLY able to do it. It does it every night during dreams, and it does it in different ways when we are trying to WILD/OBE, and while astral travelers still repeat 80's concepts from monroe and others's books about astral travels, science has been able to better explain these phenomenons.

it becomes clear that the strength of vibrations and the presence of other exit sensations directly correlate with the frequency of the energy body and nonphysical dimension that are projected into. Stronger exit sensations seem to be a product of denser and less refined subtle energy body projection, usually resulting in a real-time-zone projection. These vibrations naturally begin to lessen with experience and development, and this correlates with an experience of higher vibratory dimensions of the "astral" and a more refined subtle energy body projection.

Do you have the beginning of tangible proving facts to claim that all of that "frequency, subtle energy, vibratory dimensions and so on" are anything else that repeated but never proved affirmations that you can find in all the Astral travel books from these two or tree last decades?
They are all based on subjective and wrongly understood experiences that, even if they are strong and brainstorming, are now perfectly explainable by neurosciences.
it is only a question of what you strongly WANT to believe.

The children shouldn't let their blue balloons in the middle of corridors... Adults are always blowing their minds trying to explain how the hell these objects have arrived there.

You are entitled to your beliefs, and I am fine with you presenting them as if they are superior to mine.

What I speak of I have confirmed through my own experience of countless projections of all variations.

I have no need to prove what I say to anyone, I was simply sharing my perspective.

The difference between our beliefs is that mine is backed by personal experience and insight, whereas yours is speculation. You have not experienced the fact that these sensations are simply "a hallucination of the brain and nothing more," this is an assumption you have made.

Also, the existence of a physiological event in no way negates the possibility of there being an actual correlating experience in reality. There is a physiological explanation for just about every aspect of our experience. Continuing on with this logic, one would conclude that every experience we have has humans is simply a hallucination.

To make your balloon analogy relevant, you would have to add that the person who believes the balloon came from another reality actually experienced the event of the balloon coming from another reality.

Originally Posted by VinceField

What I speak of I have confirmed through my own experience of countless projections of all variations.

VinceField! If you can really astral project as you claimed (and i believe it too) then this time, astral project into Kaan house and then report back how his house looked like. if you win this simple task, then Kaan will be your first disciple in learning Astral projection.

Originally Posted by yaya

VinceField! If you can really astral project as you claimed (and i believe it too) then this time, astral project into Kaan house and then report back how his house looked like. if you win this simple task, then Kaan will be your first disciple in learning Astral projection.

Lol, how is he supposed to know where his house is?

By plugin to my energy body frequency which is about 8,759Mhz

This night, a first failed attempt (sure, I was answering right here, ruining my WBTB), followed by a successful WILD (very long LD)
Guess what ? I felt very strong vibrations at the beginning of the WILD.

I used galantamine 8mg+choline 400mg and 600mg A-GPC.
The first choline failed, but 3 hours later, the A-GPC helped me for my success.
The trouble I have is to correctly remember the entire LD which has last about between 45 min and 60 min.
The second I wake up (trough a FA), I forget every thing, and then I struggle to find back memories and reconstruct the story.
I flew, I passed through mirrors, I played the role of SuperMan (a defy on my french LD forum that I accepted)

Doubt it's possible to "plugin" to someone, unless we're talking possession which.. who knows about.

hi sister!
according to those who claim they can astral project, they can easily teleport to every place they wish to go. i don't know if they are right or not but i give you some examples:
1 - there are Buddhist monks who can AP and see their Lama in less than some minutes. no matter where they are on the planet and without knowing the pathways in AP. in fact, the power of WILL is their way to find any place.

2- there are many stories on internet about those people who have spied their girl friends in bathroom in AP without knowing their home address.

3- some APer like Steve J.Gones claimed that he could see his grand-father house in AP and could report every details in his house and when he reported back to his grandfather what he saw, he confirmed.

i don't know they are true or false but if anyone really claims that can AP easily, then we can test him. these simple tasks like spying us in our home will be peace of cake to them. if they can't do it, then all they believe is true is not really TRUE.

so maybe that's easier to find the reality behind AP.

That's nice yaya but AP, just like LD, does take some skill and practice to be able to do those things, unless you're naturally talented. I doubt anyone who can AP can do the things Buddhist monks do.

Hey since we're at this subject, has anyone ever had weird experiences with their hearing sense while being in something like "the phase"? One morning I was in my room in bed, I was woken up by dad who was downstairs and talking relatively loudly on the phone. I was annoyed, naturally, but tried to ignore it and go back to sleep. After what seemed like less than a minute, I was close to falling back asleep, but instead of blacking out, I began hearing dad talking on the phone 50 times louder. It was EXTREMELY loud, literally like he put a megaphone right next to my ears and began shouting loudly, my ear drums really felt like they were about to explode, I actually couldn't believe they haven't exploded yet. Later I talked to dad and he said he wasn't even shouting on the phone, let alone anything close to the volume I have heard. That was odd.

Originally Posted by Kaan

... They are all based on subjective and wrongly understood experiences that, even if they are strong and brainstorming, are now perfectly explainable by neurosciences...

Well, I also try to be as objective as possible, Kaan, and not follow any belief system, but what you say here is simply not the case. Neuroscience is far from explaining many of these phenomena including precognitive or shared dreams, remote viewing etch.
Of course, experiencing something - or reading a lot of accounts - and concluding that it's true is one thing and classifying these experiences using a structured multi-level, basically unproven belief system, is another... and of course understanding biochemically and with Neuromonitoring the experience is a completely different one...

Originally Posted by yaya

VinceField! ... astral project into Kaan house and then report back how his house looked like....

No Naya, that wouldn't be proof... Even I can get accurate info from distant locations using remote viewing, while guys like him can see as if they are there without going anywhere (being perfectly within their bodies):
Remote viewing session

Originally Posted by VinceField

I can't recall ever experiencing vibrations during a WILD.

Well, as Kaan experienced again last night, vibrations are quite common in WILDS, I know that too. So, the differences are not as pronounced and depending on ones belief system there might not be any differences at all... Anyway, the only objective way to prove that OBEs involve a real projection and not just remote data acquisition, would be through a controlled experimental setup like the ones I proposed. But I don't think we can prove anything here and I also don't think that it's important. I agree with Vince in that, what we do with the experience is what matters...

Mimi, I wonder if your mind did not just recreate the sound of your dad speaking and put it on on a loop, so to speak, as part of your HH. I've had similar experiences.

Concerning AP and "urban legends" of Tibetan yogis: this is based in sacred text and is avowed by past and current practitioners alike. I agree with Vince: it is a question of experientially determining, as well as empirically, in some cases, whether or not true separation has occurred. It seems arrogant of scientistic attitudes to argue that AP isn't real simply because it can't be objectively proven. LD hasn't been objectively proven, only suggested via eye movements. Where the consciousness is or what it is experiencing is still subjective and anecdotal.

AP will probably be "discovered" at some point, I have have a feeling, and then western science will feel very special.

It seems arrogant of scientistic attitudes to argue that AP isn't real simply because it can't be objectively proven.

my point is that until it can not be proven, it can't be affirmed.
My point also is that if you admit the power of the brain for creating the dreams then you have to admit that brain is absolutely able to be the creator of the so-called AP/OBE

But you can also deny the fact that dreams results from the brain, and why not that this forum doesn't even exist.
I'm ok with this.

Affirming Astral Plans exist, that what I find arrogant and needs to be use with conditional sentences.