Thread: Toltec way of life (Dreaming, Stalking, etc.)

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Sorry for bumping this old thread, but it has been a great read. I felt that a few things have yet to be worked out here. Now I am no expert on Toltec Sorcery as a system, but I can relate from personal experience to some of the stuff spoken of here.

Firstly, many of us have preconceived notions of what "spirituality" means. Religions are belief systems, with morals, etc.... Sorcery is a path or a technique to achieve control of the energy body. Science is also a technique or method and is not concerned with morals. Many eastern religions speak of enlightenment, but this is not a concept that is shared with all cultures. Many so-called "enlightened" people do not have full control of their energy bodies. It is easy to speak of peace and love, but the battle with the self to achieve impeccability is anything but peaceful and lovely. One must be ruthless with oneself if one is to get over one's self importance. This requires energy and a dedicated effort of will and most often the help of a benefactor or an ally. These concepts may seem alien or impersonal to someone familiar with the Eastern teachings. But remember this: the Eastern teachings like Buddhism also seem alien and impersonal to many people who don't understand them. They might think that Buddhism says that "Nothing is real, nothing matters, everything is suffering, the only way out is to become one with nothingness." This is a misunderstanding of Buddhism, it is not the Buddha's fault or lack of insight into reality. The teachings to be ruthless with yourself and others who are on the path of self knowledge is necessary because there are obstacles that have to be dealt with. It is not a search for power for power's sake, it is not to be cruel or emotionless, but dedicated. Sorcerers are nice people, authentic ones anyway, but they are not nice to injustice, self-importance, lies, etc...

Another point I would like to make is that Carlos was not entirely honest, and he did misrepresent the teachings. He did give in to self importance and he didn't have a thorough understanding of what he was talking about. He was ultimately destroyed because of this, and he didn't complete his mission. The problems some may have with Carlos is not to be mistaken for problems with Toltec Sorcery.

To say that Buddhism is more enlightened than Toltec sorcery is to use a Buddhist concept to judge Toltec sorcery. Just because a method doesn't use the concept of enlightenment doesn't mean that it is less than a method that does. Sorcery definitely travels over just as much terrain.

If we have personal problems with a teaching, but are curious to understand it more, then perhaps we can synthesize it with something we prefer. For example: if you like Buddhism, and are curious about sorcery, remember that Tibetan Buddhism is a synthesis of Tibetan Bon sorcery and the teachings of the Buddha. Just because you don't see the peace and love and enlightenment in the Toltec sorcery doesn't mean you have to give all that up to pursue sorcery. Just add the 4 noble truths and the 8fold path to sorcery. This will be seen as redundant by sorcerers, but if it is who you are then it is impeccable.

Another point: enlightenment doesn't mean that you know how the world works. If anything, a sorcerer would know more about how the world works. Or a scientist. I would ask an enlightened person how to be happy, how to heal karmaic anguish in my heart, how to make peace with death, how to be free, etc.... And they would tell me to meditate and maybe chant. Any method that they would give me that works would be sorcery. But most "enlightened" people seem impotent as far as helping other people. Except for rare ones like the Buddha, or Padmasambhava, etc in history. It is more like a cult of personality, and there are always skeletons in the closet.

Many "enlightened" people are actually sorcerers. We think of sorcerers as people who do witchcraft or spells but a true sorcerer's ambition is just as great as a soon-to-be Buddha.

All paths that pursue that the desire for knowledge ultimately lead to the spirit. It always leads back to the source.

The two mains sides of humanity either exist in a desire for self importance and greed or a pursuit for the spirit. If we pursue the spirit we ultimately come to the realization that everything is a part of god. We are parts of god. God is everything. We realize that everything deserves unconditional love because we are all a apart of god. We are god. We see from the perspective of god. We are looking at god. When we see through gods eyes we feel nothing truly exists. Everything has already happened. Everything is a part of a divine plan. Everything is happening now exactly as its supposed to happen. It has always been this way and always will be.

The main problem I have with this book is that it has created many casteneda dreaming fanatics. I don't seek to dream with inorganic being but this book causes many people to think that you can't travel out of body without kissing the IBs ass. A dream and and astral body is a god given thing at birth. I've argued with a few of these fanatics that have told, even after I've showed them my shared and other psychic dreams... that they are just normal in body dreams just because I didn't use inorganic beings.

Yes I can definitely agree with that. Inorganic beings or basically any soul that does not incarnate in the physical that is not weak definitely can help you to up your dreaming skills, and to bring you to places you would not be otherwise able to reach. although this is not necessary it can help. You can learn all these things on your own. It definitely is not necessary you need to make friends with ibs to learn how to do epic stuff in dreams. I did not. Later on though I did. They taught me many things that helped me grow and become more of a warrior. You probably will meet other spirits as you progress in dreaming that is pretty much inevitable. As you progress they can help you to learn more and to guide you. But you must be aware of what side they choose, the path of self importance or the spirit. Demons or shadow beings are weak. They choose the path of self importance.

I woke about an hour ago from a dream.

I was working in big warehouses then morning tea break happened. Sat with 4 work mates on table in work cafeteria. Was handed pay-check in form of moderate Lotto winnings check.

Got up to quickly visit work mates that had nipped home for smoke-o.

"NOW, HERE'S THE INORGANIC BEING BIT" maybe.

I became aware of holding a small med-to-dark green pillow case. Something moved inside. I opened the top a bit and the mid-to-light blue ... ummm ... spinning ball on top of a medium-to light green cylinder talked to me.

I can't remember the exact words "it" said but it was mine and "it" wanted me to "sort-of" define "it", give it a name.

I answered and called it "my god".

"it" said "O" but seemed to want more definition.

I then said "faith".

I closed the green pillow case.

Next I was walking on tingley, tender, bare-feet walking down the bitumen back to work in the big warehouses.

Then I was awake.

I read page one of this thread yesterday. I tried to post about a guy I knew 35 years ago who was "way into" CarlosCastanedo. Briefly, he told my mum that for years he had gone deep into the Kuranda rain forest, stripped-off, covered his eye then, at first, walked, then run, then run very fast.

He was training himself to perceive his environment without eyes.

He told mum that for a long time he would have weeks off between practices to recover from his injuries. It also took him weeks to pluck up the courage to have another go.

He told mum that he shared this with very few. Then one night he took mum to his sacred clearing in the Kuranda rainforest to demonstrate what he does. Mum was scared for him cos he really ran, jumping and swerving, like a mad man. But, he didn't hit anything.

He was a dedicated, follower of Carlos C.

He was 50+ at the time (1975). He was known on the mountain, among the hippies as King John (real name John King) King of Kuranda (meeting place of the spirits)

Dear cachero,

ChaybaChayba, Schmaven, High Hunter, The Cusp, Vortex, Man of Shred, juroara, Oneiro, mthed, Neeros, Naiya, saxonharp, Robot_Butler, Dannon Oneironaut, kenietz and Waking Nomad, (18 contributors in all)

I am rereading this thread while I copy each of the 54 posts to a Word Document to save and print out

Anyway

About that Toltec guy, "King of Kuranda".

He told mum the reason for his dedication to his painful practices.

He said that after a few bum-runs where nothing spiritual (psychic) happened and he was thinking of quitting this dangerous activity ...

It was very dangerous cos he never told anyone where he was and if he broke a leg or got fatally bitten by something while in his sacred clearing, deep in the mountainous and wild, Kuranda Rainforest, he would die.

Anyway

On about his third attempt to walk, naked and blindfolded, at midnight, something powerful happened.

As he was focused (with fear) and walking, he got a quick inner image of a tree.

You guessed it.

Right in front of him was "that" tree.

After more practices this inner-vision stuff became more and more frequent. Till, years later, he could RUN FLAT OUT and the root-ruts, rocks and trees would communicate directly, to his inner-vision, and he could jump and weave (in an ecstatic-wild dance) and never get injured.

And he let my mum see it happen.

@debrajane:
i try to walk with my eyes closed and keep a straight line trying not to hit something on the way. the most difficult is to overcome is the fear from not seeing.once i manage to do that i can keep walking for a while. the problem is that i do that on the street and that is a bit dangerous. the interesting thing is that sometimes when i do that i can see in my inner vision something like guidelines. some brights points which i somehow knew i can use like a guide.i dunno how to describe it better. when i do that exercise i spread a bit my arms with palms pointing downwards so i can feel the connection to earth and then i suppose my inner vision is showing me the power of my palms.so when i move the lights move too and i know which direction i am going.

Originally Posted by debrajane

Dear cachero,

ChaybaChayba, Schmaven, High Hunter, The Cusp, Vortex, Man of Shred, juroara, Oneiro, mthed, Neeros, Naiya, saxonharp, Robot_Butler, Dannon Oneironaut, kenietz and Waking Nomad, (18 contributors in all)

I am rereading this thread while I copy each of the 54 posts to a Word Document to save and print out

Anyway

About that Toltec guy, "King of Kuranda".

He told mum the reason for his dedication to his painful practices.

He said that after a few bum-runs where nothing spiritual (psychic) happened and he was thinking of quitting this dangerous activity ...

It was very dangerous cos he never told anyone where he was and if he broke a leg or got fatally bitten by something while in his sacred clearing, deep in the mountainous and wild, Kuranda Rainforest, he would die.

Anyway

On about his third attempt to walk, naked and blindfolded, at midnight, something powerful happened.

As he was focused (with fear) and walking, he got a quick inner image of a tree.

You guessed it.

Right in front of him was "that" tree.

After more practices this inner-vision stuff became more and more frequent. Till, years later, he could RUN FLAT OUT and the root-ruts, rocks and trees would communicate directly, to his inner-vision, and he could jump and weave (in an ecstatic-wild dance) and never get injured.

And he let my mum see it happen.

Cool! Put it on youtube. Just kidding. I am sure it's true, but you don't have to follow Castaneda to do such things. You just have to practice. I sometimes close my eyes and walk down the sidewalk for a bit just to see how long I can do it for. Anyway... here's what don Juan told me about Castaneda:

Dreamviews Lucid Dreaming Community & Resource - The Nomad Chronicles - Dream Journals

excerpt:

Don Juan opens a portal, and jumps through. I follow him. We are in a dungeon. There is a man being tortured. It's me. He is being whipped, chained to a stone wall. The man with the whip has the head of a bull on. I kick him in the back, breaking his spine, and the bull head flies off. The man is me.

I shoot astral tentacles at both me's. I absorb them into me.

That's not what you are supposed to do!

I am tired of your shit, shaman! All your puzzles and riddles and crazy games, all your bullshit. I am all done with you! Fed up! Stop trying to make me doubt my actions. I don't care if I am not aware of the physical state, or if you are some type of dream guide or some awesome dead guy blah blah blah.... I only had those stupid IB dreams when guess what? I had them when I was reading your book.

You think you know everything about dreaming.

That would be Carlos that thinks he knows everything about dreaming. You see he took what I said, and expounded upon it, and perceived me in his own way. What he did not realize was that I was referencing a very specific world that is not universal to all dreaming, but it is a path that he had chosen for himself. Just as hallucinogens were necessary for one such as him to be inducted into the wayless path, his perception of the dream plane, a very abstract one was necessary for him to understand dreaming. But, what he did not understand was I was teaching him a perception that was to be for him alone. Other may perceive it similarly, but not so universally as he so egotistically thought. Carlos was always fascinated by a new experience, even if it was an old experience forgotten, but never understood the true purpose which is to perceive energy not as its truest form, but it's purest form, which is this:

Everything changes into colored energy.

Now you see me for what I am, a dream character of Carlos Castaneda. It is true that I am real. It is also true he met me in waking life. But, I have no physical form. He was awake when we met because of the hallucinogens he took. He had many dreams and many drug trips that were so real, they were memories to him, which of course, they are. He had dreams taking drugs, and when he was on a drug, he would take another drug in his head, in the drug trip. I am at once a sentient entity, a collection of thoughts and projections based on plant experiences and the energy of a multitude of dreamers. But, at my core I am a creation of Carlos Castaneda, yet I am real.

Originally Posted by cachero

Well, There are a few things that don't add up in his books, and he's been discredited. BUT! I'm not saying that the principles in his book are not good, nor am I saying that his ideas about dreaming are not good, because I think they are great! I just think some of the story line is made up. Example: La Gorda, Nester, Pablito, Dona Soledad etc.

I think he used those characters to teach his ideas. Kinda like the bible?

Speaking of dreaming entities; allies, inorganic beings, I have been reading TAOD and read about the dreaming emissary. I awoke from an afternoon nap today after hearing a deep mans voice, (i was the only man in the house) saying something to me. He said only 1 word, and I'm not exactly sure what he said, it was like "go" "listen" or something. Has anyone else had this experience?

(I did read about the dream emissary the night before though.)

I have read all of CC's books, some a few times and will probably read them all again down the road. It is sometimes hard to tell with certainty what is real and what may not be but there is valuable info in all of his books regardless. It is also important to remember that CC was in and out of the second attention, among numerous other states of consciousness, some drug induced throughout his entire journey making it (probably) difficult to be 100% accurate with time frames.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Cool! Put it on youtube. Just kidding. I am sure it's true, but you don't have to follow Castaneda to do such things. You just have to practice. I sometimes close my eyes and walk down the sidewalk for a bit just to see how long I can do it for. Anyway... here's what don Juan told me about Castaneda:

Dreamviews Lucid Dreaming Community & Resource - The Nomad Chronicles - Dream Journals

excerpt:

Don Juan opens a portal, and jumps through. I follow him. We are in a dungeon. There is a man being tortured. It's me. He is being whipped, chained to a stone wall. The man with the whip has the head of a bull on. I kick him in the back, breaking his spine, and the bull head flies off. The man is me.

I shoot astral tentacles at both me's. I absorb them into me.

That's not what you are supposed to do!

I am tired of your shit, shaman! All your puzzles and riddles and crazy games, all your bullshit. I am all done with you! Fed up! Stop trying to make me doubt my actions. I don't care if I am not aware of the physical state, or if you are some type of dream guide or some awesome dead guy blah blah blah.... I only had those stupid IB dreams when guess what? I had them when I was reading your book.

You think you know everything about dreaming.

That would be Carlos that thinks he knows everything about dreaming. You see he took what I said, and expounded upon it, and perceived me in his own way. What he did not realize was that I was referencing a very specific world that is not universal to all dreaming, but it is a path that he had chosen for himself. Just as hallucinogens were necessary for one such as him to be inducted into the wayless path, his perception of the dream plane, a very abstract one was necessary for him to understand dreaming. But, what he did not understand was I was teaching him a perception that was to be for him alone. Other may perceive it similarly, but not so universally as he so egotistically thought. Carlos was always fascinated by a new experience, even if it was an old experience forgotten, but never understood the true purpose which is to perceive energy not as its truest form, but it's purest form, which is this:

Everything changes into colored energy.

Now you see me for what I am, a dream character of Carlos Castaneda. It is true that I am real. It is also true he met me in waking life. But, I have no physical form. He was awake when we met because of the hallucinogens he took. He had many dreams and many drug trips that were so real, they were memories to him, which of course, they are. He had dreams taking drugs, and when he was on a drug, he would take another drug in his head, in the drug trip. I am at once a sentient entity, a collection of thoughts and projections based on plant experiences and the energy of a multitude of dreamers. But, at my core I am a creation of Carlos Castaneda, yet I am real.

Great post as always. Very interesting!