Thread: How to Prove Shared Dreaming Scientifically

It would certainly make people take notice, I won't deny that. Sorry about nitpicking--it's just that reading that sentence made me cringe. Still, getting millions of people to openly claim that they can dream share isn't exactly the most practical approach, at least not until dream sharing has either been proven or there's been some big thing (like a popular movie) to raise public awareness of it, or both.

You have the two dreamers in a lab, in separate rooms with no electronics, communication method, ect. and the scientist gives one message to a dreamer and another message to the other. After they wake up they each tell the scientist the message the other dreamer told them and if they match, then this is real.

Hell, you don't even need any scientific equipment to confirm this, it would be useful however in understanding the science behind it. I don't see what's the whole problem is trying this experiment. I do hope that this is real but I won't go around believing anything. After all, if you can carry this out and repeat it you could make history.

Hm, must I note that in dreams its difficult to remember exact words and the like? It would be set up for failure if you don't run a previous experiment to see if the LDer can communicate first with the other dreamer.

Originally Posted by Walms

Hm, must I note that in dreams its difficult to remember exact words and the like? It would be set up for failure if you don't run a previous experiment to see if the LDer can communicate first with the other dreamer.

Very true. In my experience, shared dreams are only similar to each other, not EXACTLY alike. So even if we do give a password, there's a good chance that the password will be messed up.

If you (the plural you) have not read the shared dream journal, please read some.

Originally Posted by ExitReality

You have the two dreamers in a lab, in separate rooms with no electronics, communication method, ect. and the scientist gives one message to a dreamer and another message to the other. After they wake up they each tell the scientist the message the other dreamer told them and if they match, then this is real.

I like it, simple and easy. Sure specific words might be hard to memorize, but not that hard. People often quote characters in their dreams on this site. And we'd be using experienced dreamers who know how to focus.

And they wouldn't have to get it right the very first attempt. We could give the dreamers numerous attempts with various dream locations and different secret messages.

Also, you don't really need a sleep lab, just 2 rooms with beds and a trusted third party. Could be done at any university probably. Sure sleep labs would be better to confirm both people are in rem at the same time, but that's not necessary.

Any the initial experiment if successful would gain attention and more research would follow.

Still people here aren't really interested in proving shared dreaming is real. They just want to believe that scientists are evil and everyone apart from them is closed minded and ignorant. And if they're happy interpreting their experiences as shared dreams, why bother proving it?

Only problem with that is the message would have to change, otherwise what is to keep the two from ascertaining each others' identities and pretending they did it. If you use people from the same community (like from this forum) and allowed any contact between candidates during off time then the results would be skewed.

And if they're happy interpreting their experiences as shared dreams, why bother proving it?

Good point. Dreaming is funny, and I believe all kinds of crazy things are possible, but some of the shared dream experiences read like a fantasy serial and involve a regular cast of dreamers reporting it happening regularly. I hate to say I'm a skeptic when it comes to this, but I think majority of the shared dreams reported are manufactured. Not saying I don't believe in it entirely, just that it seems people like to embellish experiences when it comes to things like this. I tried an experiment when I was much younger where I would tell my girlfriend, who was also (supposedly) a lucid dreamer that I would bring her a gift in her dreams. I would tell her to let me know if she got it. I also did this with a friend as well. Some days they would both thank me for bringing them things I had not. Other nights I would dream about them in a lucid fashion but to no positive result. I would also overhear them fabricating these grand stories of their nightly adventures together and attempt to include me, as if it was a given I was in what I thought of as 'The Dream Team' sarcastically in secret. I think they dreamed of me from time to time and I know I did them, but there was no dream sharing, only made up stories of mid-night adventures that never happened quite the way they ended up being spun to the listener. They fed off of each other and relied on each telling a bit of the story at a time to help flesh it out as if they were collaborating on the spot. I know when I be into write my dreams, vivid images often come flooding back from forgotten areas of my brain, but this was bit different.
The one time I did share a dream it was with someone very far away and neither had expected it. I called my sister the next day to tell her about my odd dream and before I was even finished saying hello she recounted the dream I had, only from her perspective. It was short, strange and fairly ordinary. Not an epic vision quest to say the least.
I'm sure that shared dreaming,like LD, is something that can be cultivated, but I think many people will recount false experiences for the same reason it happens surrounding UFO sightings etc. There will be people who actually believe what they saw constitutes X and then the myriad others who will just say they saw x to be a part of something. I believe it happen even for things as silly as reporting to the ToTM/ ToTY threads in this forum. People will say a lot of things to gain respect and attention, even internet respect in the form of scripting.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling anyone out here. As long as people are enjoying themselves. Just sayin' .

Originally Posted by monkeyking

Good point. Dreaming is funny, and I believe all kinds of crazy things are possible, but some of the shared dream experiences read like a fantasy serial and involve a regular cast of dreamers reporting it happening regularly. I hate to say I'm a skeptic when it comes to this, but I think majority of the shared dreams reported are manufactured. Not saying I don't believe in it entirely, just that it seems people like to embellish experiences when it comes to things like this. I tried an experiment when I was much younger where I would tell my girlfriend, who was also (supposedly) a lucid dreamer that I would bring her a gift in her dreams. I would tell her to let me know if she got it. I also did this with a friend as well. Some days they would both thank me for bringing them things I had not. Other nights I would dream about them in a lucid fashion but to no positive result. I would also overhear them fabricating these grand stories of their nightly adventures together and attempt to include me, as if it was a given I was in what I thought of as 'The Dream Team' sarcastically in secret. I think they dreamed of me from time to time and I know I did them, but there was no dream sharing, only made up stories of mid-night adventures that never happened quite the way they ended up being spun to the listener. They fed off of each other and relied on each telling a bit of the story at a time to help flesh it out as if they were collaborating on the spot. I know when I be into write my dreams, vivid images often come flooding back from forgotten areas of my brain, but this was bit different.
The one time I did share a dream it was with someone very far away and neither had expected it. I called my sister the next day to tell her about my odd dream and before I was even finished saying hello she recounted the dream I had, only from her perspective. It was short, strange and fairly ordinary. Not an epic vision quest to say the least.
I'm sure that shared dreaming,like LD, is something that can be cultivated, but I think many people will recount false experiences for the same reason it happens surrounding UFO sightings etc. There will be people who actually believe what they saw constitutes X and then the myriad others who will just say they saw x to be a part of something. I believe it happen even for things as silly as reporting to the ToTM/ ToTY threads in this forum. People will say a lot of things to gain respect and attention, even internet respect in the form of scripting.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling anyone out here. As long as people are enjoying themselves. Just sayin' .

Interesting, yet sad story, but this doesn't really have anything to do with the topic of how to prove shared dreaming scientifically.

Hey, anyone thought on the lie detector idea?
Come on, even if people are experienced dreamers, like me, there is no solid proof that a password would be successfully conveyed. Want an example? Take a look at Nomad's signature. ^ Two EXTREMELY similar quotes, but they are not exact.
As an interesting side fact, I came to know that if you plant the idea in someone's mind that you WILL come to his dreams tonight, and if he really believes it, you might find yourself, perhaps unwillingly, in his dream. Kind of like invading someone's dream, by making him unconsciously summon you into his dream. Believe me, it worked.

I'm always a skeptic, but I like to remain open minded simulatenously. I believe that the password idea would work fine, with the example of the quotes, they are so similar, that say the password was hedgehog, and the other came up with porcupine, and it was found that information was not exact, but rather related in some closish way. One word may be too tricky so a sentence may work better? I think that an experiment should certainly be carried out, as a positive result would have massive implications on how the human mind works and what we are capable of.

Lie detectors are generally unreliable, you can bypass the results in numerous ways, a couple are, to be a good lier, to cause yourself pain (bit ott though) or apparently clenching your anus or something, I remember from QI

Originally Posted by Jonnyj

apparently clenching your anus or something

Just laughed out so hard tears came to my eyes!!! LMFAO!!!

Scientists like hard cold facts. If they were to prove something like this,theyd need someone like you who claims to know how to do shared dreaming, and then they would select random people from all different backgrounds to be the people your supposed to deliver the password to. presuming they dont think your looney and shun you when you try to chat with them about the possibility of shared dreaming.

Originally Posted by Skydreamer707

Scientists like hard cold facts. If they were to prove something like this,theyd need someone like you who claims to know how to do shared dreaming, and then they would select random people from all different backgrounds to be the people your supposed to deliver the password to. presuming they dont think your looney and shun you when you try to chat with them about the possibility of shared dreaming.

Um, I live in Saudi Arabia. There are no sleep labs here, and my trips to Canada aren't that long for a thorough experiment.
By the way, your avatar is really cool. I love it. First time I am liking someone's avatar so much.

presuming they dont think your looney and shun you when you try to chat with them about the possibility of shared dreaming.

Now that's just unscientific.

But scientists are so skeptical that the scenario is not entirely impossible.
I mean, scientifically speaking, how in the world would two people going to sleep at different times thousands of miles apart have similar mental images? Kinda makes sense, but those who have experienced it cannot deny it.

But scientists are so skeptical that the scenario is not entirely impossible.
I mean, scientifically speaking, how in the world would two people going to sleep at different times thousands of miles apart have similar mental images? Kinda makes sense, but those who have experienced it cannot deny it.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Enough for who? For the scientific community? Hardly. Unfortunately, it will be a very long time before the scientific community would accept that something such as shared dreaming exists. Sure some labs might discover reason to believe that the phenomena is real and publish their research. But it would get ripped apart by their peers in the scientific community and the credibility of the experiments and the scientists involved in them will be completely destroyed and dragged through the mud by skeptics.

This is an extremely important point. Even if you CAN prove it or come close to proving it with a small group of scientists, the scientific community will completely throw it out the window, because it goes against so much of what they believe is true.

It's like teaching someone all of the colours opposite of what they are, and telling them later in life they are really the other way around. It will unsettle their psyche so much that they deny it and deny it, like Paris Syndrome, suffered by the occasional Japanese tourist. Their entire world and everything they knew is different, which could cause major problems when it comes to maintaining any sense of order and stability.

But then again, taking science as fact is the first mistake, as all science is based on a previous theory, based on a previous theory, and so on.

The only reasonable thing right NOW would be to prove it to as many skeptics NOW as you can, and eventually it can spread.

It would be kinda hard to 'prove' it to a majority of people. They would need to experience shared dreaming themselves, as there is no other way to prove it to and external observer. (which is the point of this thread) Considering the rather tiny fraction of people who can lucid dreaming compared on a universal basis, and the number shared dreamers who also lucid dream, I think we are, unfortunately, still a long way from our destination. UNLESS, a ground-breaking new technology comes up that prjects an individual's dreams on a screen. Until then...

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

This will require the dreamers to be monitored in sleep labs. They will not be allowed any contact with each other between the time they fall asleep, and the time they write in their dream journals. Then, they dream journals will be compared.

This is the only way to prove shared dreaming.

There are very few sleep labs in the world. I think three in the US, and one in Canada, as far as North America goes.

I have made every possible effort to contact scientists that study sleep and dreams.

***

If you have any other ideas how to prove shared dreaming scientifically, please suggest your ideas.

Anything like sharing passwords would not work, because we would not have third party verification to prove the dreamers are not communicating while awake.

I created this thread to clear up the post-clutter from the Shared Dreaming Tutorial. I created that thread to teach people how to share dreams, not to discuss the scientific experiments.

Looking forward to the discussion.

There are a couple things I would like to add:

The dreamers should be given tasks to accomplish by the scientists.

This is a skill, and the dreamers must be skilled shared lucid dreamers with high dream control. This skill is beyond lucid dreaming.

Before further posting:

Please read the shared dream DJ's: (for anecdotal evidence, and to see why passwords are not necessary)

Also, please learn about what the scientific method is, and what this means: double blind peer reviewed study published in a reputable journal.

Well proving shared dreaming scientifically is actually quiet simple. First, take two Dreamers who claim they can share a dream, i.e. WakingNomad and RavenNight. Then of course, put them in a dreem lab and let them share dreams. I don't like the idea of a password though...why take a single word when instead you could take several things that should match up. That gives more validity. If I were the researcher, I'd give one of the dreamers a quest to go on together with the other. That way they couldn't lie about a shared adventure since they both didn't know what the quest was in the first place.

I believe, that if one was to test this, it would have to be in a sleep lab with a secret code told to the dreamer(s) before going to sleep, and so that neither hears the other persons code

Originally Posted by Hukif

Hm, must I note that in dreams its difficult to remember exact words and the like? It would be set up for failure if you don't run a previous experiment to see if the LDer can communicate first with the other dreamer.

A code would not have to be a word, necessarily. What if you are commanded to perform a simple set of movements to perform to the other dreamer, instead of the password? It would be complex enough for a few successfull tests to be worth considering already, and it'd probably be easier to remember once you arrive in dream OR wake up than a word.

Originally Posted by JussiKala

I believe, that if one was to test this, it would have to be in a sleep lab with a secret code told to the dreamer(s) before going to sleep, and so that neither hears the other persons code

A code would not have to be a word, necessarily. What if you are commanded to perform a simple set of movements to perform to the other dreamer, instead of the password? It would be complex enough for a few successfull tests to be worth considering already, and it'd probably be easier to remember once you arrive in dream OR wake up than a word.

See my last post.

Originally Posted by Marsupilama

Well proving shared dreaming scientifically is actually quiet simple. First, take two Dreamers who claim they can share a dream, i.e. WakingNomad and RavenNight. Then of course, put them in a dreem lab and let them share dreams. I don't like the idea of a password though...why take a single word when instead you could take several things that should match up. That gives more validity. If I were the researcher, I'd give one of the dreamers a quest to go on together with the other. That way they couldn't lie about a shared adventure since they both didn't know what the quest was in the first place.

Yes. Agreed. "Shared adventure." I like that phrase. well said.

Shared adventure... Unless these two people are completely stranger to each other, this presents an issue, since they could have talked about it before the test and agreed to tell the researchers something.

A code told to one of the dreamers just before going to sleep would be much more reliable, or just having two random people, though I don't know how you guys see shared dreaming, and if doing it with complete strangers'd be possible.