Alyzarin

Yeah, no kidding on "Almost like a lucid". Pretty cool that you think to go for stuff like possession and time manipulation in an NLD. (And pull them off, no less!)

And dude. You had to be super, super close to crossing over in "Lucid Dreaming Tutorial".

So you hit 10 mg of melatonin when you want the super vivid dreams? Hmm, maybe I'm underdoing it then. I've never gone over 6mg, and that was only when I was trying to achieve (what I thought would be) bone-crushing levels of REM rebound. Now I feel like kind of a wuss.

I wonder if it's because of the way I try to drop awareness in lucids anyway and just run with it; maybe I simply recognize the similar state of mind and use it without acknowledging what it implies?

That seems like a good explanation to me. Normally I'd say that it's simply because you're spending lots of time thinking about lucid dreaming, but that doesn't seem to really be the case for you right now (at least not to the extent some of us can get obsessed with LD!)

Above all, I think that it illustrates a certain mental liberation that pays off in a variety of ways. Think how much easier dream control becomes when these are things that you do without making effort of any kind! While my dream scenarios are often unrealistic, my capabilities tend to be things that I can do IWL (or if I'm lucky, have maybe done in a video game recently.) That mental flexibility is great.

Yeah, no kidding on "Almost like a lucid". Pretty cool that you think to go for stuff like possession and time manipulation in an NLD. (And pull them off, no less!)

And dude. You had to be super, super close to crossing over in "Lucid Dreaming Tutorial".

So you hit 10 mg of melatonin when you want the super vivid dreams? Hmm, maybe I'm underdoing it then. I've never gone over 6mg, and that was only when I was trying to achieve (what I thought would be) bone-crushing levels of REM rebound. Now I feel like kind of a wuss.

Hehe, do you ever use powers in non-lucids? They actually often tend to work better for me than they do in lucids. Maybe because they're not questioned in any way? But I was definitely happy about them, I usually don't use that many all at once.

And if I was paying attention at all I'll bet I could've become lucid in that one, I was just distracted I guess. And while I was doing it I just had this attitude of "Really, do I have to do this right now? Alright then...." I think I am just starting to get used to the fact that powers are possible in dreams, it's becoming dull. XD

Heh heh heh.... Oh yeah, you should definitely take those doses higher. 10 mg is all I use anymore, though admittedly on those nights I was mostly taking it to be able to sleep easily. But that is the dream enhancement dose I use. Buuuuuut, if you really want to be crazy, you can always experiment even more.

---> I wish I could've tried that candy.... - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views <---

^^ One of my first DJ entries here. I took 50 mg that night and it was fairly trippy. ^_^

That seems like a good explanation to me. Normally I'd say that it's simply because you're spending lots of time thinking about lucid dreaming, but that doesn't seem to really be the case for you right now (at least not to the extent some of us can get obsessed with LD!)

Above all, I think that it illustrates a certain mental liberation that pays off in a variety of ways. Think how much easier dream control becomes when these are things that you do without making effort of any kind! While my dream scenarios are often unrealistic, my capabilities tend to be things that I can do IWL (or if I'm lucky, have maybe done in a video game recently.) That mental flexibility is great.

Haha, yeah, I'm not nearly as obsessed about lucids as I used to be. It'll come back though, it hits in waves!

It definitely does make things easier, being able to do them while non-lucid. It builds up confidence, I think. I've even had something happen where I was in a superpower-themed dream and I had the power to absorb other powers, and after taking a freezing power I became lucid and still knew how to do it correctly. I haven't used it since then, but the memory is pretty clear. I should try to remember to work on that more. >.>

I'm sure you'll get to the point of being able to do all kinds of unrealistic things though, just give it some time! And definitely take any chance you can to experiment with the things that dream has already created for you, that always helped me see things from new perspectives. =)



By the way, I'm definitely getting to that PM and DJ comment, they're just so long and I've been really busy. X)

Yeah, that's just it... it is exceedingly rare for me to demonstrate any kind of powers in an NLD! The closest I can recall is a pseudo-lucid that wound up turning into a lucid. Just thinking about dream powers makes my heart pound... the fact that you've done so much of that stuff that it's dull to you...!

Cooooool, I will double up that melatonin then. Melatonin is truly one of the few substances I'm not that nervous about taking. I remember reading that they'd never even been able to find a melatonin LD50 for mice. I have vague worries about the effects of chronic high doses on tolerance, testosterone, etc. but all in all, an amazingly safe little LD supplement.

And LOL @ 50 mg melatonin! I will definitely check that out! Great thoughts on powers as well. I did some truly crazy stuff in my first few LDs when I thought that was what you were supposed to do in LDs. Sort of the comic book version of what I thought an LD was supposed to be. I should rediscover that mindset!

By the way, I'm definitely getting to that PM and DJ comment, they're just so long and I've been really busy. X)

Ha! Come on, don't worry about any of that stuff! I know that I've got a VM discussion with you and at least one DJ comment thread that I've left totally hanging, so don't sweat it for a second. Besides, it's 100x more important for you to kick ass in school (and keep up your new-found DJ dilligence!) We can get back to trying to break the North American record for PM size when you've got more time on your hands.

Hehe, don't worry, you'll get used to it eventually. It's amazing the kind of things that can begin to seem ordinary. But I still feel like I novice compared to some people, honestly. When I first started hanging around here I talked to people who were much further along than I am now, people who considered giving birth to a planet and fast-forwarding through time to watch inhabitants come to life and evolve on it something rather mundane, because they've already done it tons of times and much more. I'm not quite there yet myself, I've still got a lot to learn. But I'm working on it.

Yeah, melatonin is absurdly safe lol. I wouldn't be surprised if it just doesn't ever become toxic before the doses become so large that the body just excretes it as is, and therefore you couldn't really ever take too much. Don't hold me too that, I just wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. X) I'm thinking about that a lot too, getting back that excitement that comes with first getting lucid. It's crazy what you can do when you're just willing to go for it, and you have no idea at all what will or won't work. That's why I think novelty is really helpful in dreams though too, just messing with what you've got like I said before. Keeps things fresh and interesting, you know?

Ha! Come on, don't worry about any of that stuff! I know that I've got a VM discussion with you and at least one DJ comment thread that I've left totally hanging, so don't sweat it for a second. Besides, it's 100x more important for you to kick ass in school (and keep up your new-found DJ dilligence!) We can get back to trying to break the North American record for PM size when you've got more time on your hands.

Hehe, alright, I'll try not to worry too much about it in the future. But it's about to be your turn to deal with it, I've already been typing for hours and I'm still done. XP

When I first started hanging around here I talked to people who were much further along than I am now, people who considered giving birth to a planet and fast-forwarding through time to watch inhabitants come to life and evolve on it something rather mundane, because they've already done it tons of times and much more.

Ha! Those are actually some of my most advanced LD goals. (From playing too much Civ, I guess?) It makes you wonder what people at that level are doing so they won't be bored by such unambitious dream tasks. I guess, when you move beyond that kind of stuff, you probably also move a bit beyond the ability to describe your experiences in terms that people at my level can comprehend. =) The idea of these experiences becoming mundane... honestly, it's inconceivable to me. Even basic skills like flight (and lucidity itself) still make me so damn happy.

I'm thinking about that a lot too, getting back that excitement that comes with first getting lucid. It's crazy what you can do when you're just willing to go for it, and you have no idea at all what will or won't work. That's why I think novelty is really helpful in dreams though too, just messing with what you've got like I said before. Keeps things fresh and interesting, you know?

That's so right. It reminds me of the way that kids view the world vs. the way that adults do. What I notice when observing my kids is how much of the world they pick up on, question, and examine when I'm stuck in some old groove that I wore into my life as part of "growing up". Like you said, novelty is very important for keeping yourself motivated and engaged in anything. Kids are experts at making their own novelty out of what they see around them.

I've wondered from time to time why most people are far better dreamers when they're children than when they're adults. A lot of kids will incubate dreams and even lucid dream without anyone even telling them that it's a thing. They're fortunate enough to have never picked up on the bad attitudes that adults develop about dreams and to hell with anyone who tries to tell them they can't fly. =)

Hehe, alright, I'll try not to worry too much about it in the future. But it's about to be your turn to deal with it, I've already been typing for hours and I'm still done. XP

Yeah, I was most impressed!! That kept me occupied for my entire WBTB. Great stuff, and an excellent segue into the LD I had later that morning. I'm 100% sure this is why you and some other DV folks popped up in that LD. That was a first for me!

Ha! Those are actually some of my most advanced LD goals. (From playing too much Civ, I guess?) It makes you wonder what people at that level are doing so they won't be bored by such unambitious dream tasks. I guess, when you move beyond that kind of stuff, you probably also move a bit beyond the ability to describe your experiences in terms that people at my level can comprehend. =) The idea of these experiences becoming mundane... honestly, it's inconceivable to me. Even basic skills like flight (and lucidity itself) still make me so damn happy.

Civ? I'm not familiar with it. :O Well, one person I know like that mostly has sex in their dreams now. Or at least last I saw, they haven't updated in a long time now. But you can tell when people are really far into it, because those people generally have stable recurring DCs with fully developed personalities and stuff like that. A lot of those kinds of dreams I've read are much more aware and involving actual life contemplation or working out emotional issues than a regular lucid dreamer's dreams. Which makes sense I guess, because isn't that where we're all headed? But I'm sure they can also do all kinds of stuff that, as you say, they just can't put into words. I can only imagine it, I hope to be there some day. I may be used to some things already, but I'm still pretty excited about lucids overall, so I understand where you're coming from.

That's so right. It reminds me of the way that kids view the world vs. the way that adults do. What I notice when observing my kids is how much of the world they pick up on, question, and examine when I'm stuck in some old groove that I wore into my life as part of "growing up". Like you said, novelty is very important for keeping yourself motivated and engaged in anything. Kids are experts at making their own novelty out of what they see around them.

I've wondered from time to time why most people are far better dreamers when they're children than when they're adults. A lot of kids will incubate dreams and even lucid dream without anyone even telling them that it's a thing. They're fortunate enough to have never picked up on the bad attitudes that adults develop about dreams and to hell with anyone who tries to tell them they can't fly. =)

Definitely, kids have it good! I'm always jealous when I hear about someone here who was doing that stuff when they were young, especially this incubation "wheel" that seems to be a surprisingly common method. Imagine how good we could be at all this if we'd been doing it since childhood!

Yeah, I was most impressed!! That kept me occupied for my entire WBTB. Great stuff, and an excellent segue into the LD I had later that morning. I'm 100% sure this is why you and some other DV folks popped up in that LD. That was a first for me!

Glad I could help! I'm still envious of that, I really want that to happen to me! I really just want to see what kinds of crazy stuff people will say. X)

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

Civ? I'm not familiar with it. :O

Oops, fell into shorthand there. "Civ" is short for the "Civilization" series of turn-based strategy games where you control the growth, development, and fate of a civilization. You start with a small, nomadic band of tribespeople, pick a spot to settle, and try to grow an empire over thousands of years. The classic paths to victory are to either wipe out everybody else on the planet or build an interstellar spaceship and fly to colonize Alpha Centauri. =) Fun games, but complex, engrossing, and time-consuming almost to a fault!

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

But you can tell when people are really far into it, because those people generally have stable recurring DCs with fully developed personalities and stuff like that. A lot of those kinds of dreams I've read are much more aware and involving actual life contemplation or working out emotional issues than a regular lucid dreamer's dreams. Which makes sense I guess, because isn't that where we're all headed? But I'm sure they can also do all kinds of stuff that, as you say, they just can't put into words. I can only imagine it, I hope to be there some day. I may be used to some things already, but I'm still pretty excited about lucids overall, so I understand where you're coming from.

Interesting... stable recurring DCs that are entirely fictitious, then? My wife and kids have very robust, well-developed DCs (as do several friends, though to a lesser extent.) But I have yet to encounter any persistent fictional DCs. That has to be really fascinating, especially if you're someone who is interested in creating fiction or any other kind of art. Being able to actually interact with a character that you're creating in a story or inhabit the setting of a story, see a civilization you imagine grow from its birth... So exciting...

Wow, I was heading for a major sidebar there. Kinda had to stop myself. Anyway, I'd never thought about lucid introspection and thinking about personal issues (beyond interacting with the DCs of lost loved ones.) Lucid dreaming provides such unimaginably high levels of play and creativity that the idea of moving beyond that seems alien to me. I quite literally feel like I could fill thousands of years of dreaming with the range of things that I'd want to do. I'm the type, though, that never really gets bored. (I prefer the terms "creative and curious" to "easily amused". )

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

Definitely, kids have it good! I'm always jealous when I hear about someone here who was doing that stuff when they were young, especially this incubation "wheel" that seems to be a surprisingly common method. Imagine how good we could be at all this if we'd been doing it since childhood!

I am not too familiar with the incubation "wheel". Is that a particular incubation approach? I'm intrigued because my incubation abilities are a bit spotty. I used to be a pretty good dream incubator when I was a kid but like so often happens, I "grew up" and let the skill atrophy long ago. I think that's the story with a lot of people. You have to wonder where we'd be if we'd only kept it up.

Oops, fell into shorthand there. "Civ" is short for the "Civilization" series of turn-based strategy games where you control the growth, development, and fate of a civilization. You start with a small, nomadic band of tribespeople, pick a spot to settle, and try to grow an empire over thousands of years. The classic paths to victory are to either wipe out everybody else on the planet or build an interstellar spaceship and fly to colonize Alpha Centauri. =) Fun games, but complex, engrossing, and time-consuming almost to a fault!

That does sound pretty fun! I don't play many games of that type, but I can certainly understand the draw.

Interesting... stable recurring DCs that are entirely fictitious, then? My wife and kids have very robust, well-developed DCs (as do several friends, though to a lesser extent.) But I have yet to encounter any persistent fictional DCs. That has to be really fascinating, especially if you're someone who is interested in creating fiction or any other kind of art. Being able to actually interact with a character that you're creating in a story or inhabit the setting of a story, see a civilization you imagine grow from its birth... So exciting...

Yeah, like people you don't even know in waking life, or sometimes not even people at all. It would be pretty great to be able to do that, I've often thought of trying to create an entire city or life that's stable in the dream world and just seeing the same DCs over and over again.... I've actually heard of really skilled lucid dreamers doing that kind of thing. I tend to think that it runs on the same function as creating a tulpa. It's really crazy what the mind can do, but I think that dream guides are this same kind of thing as well. The only DC I can ever recall seeing twice actually had a lot of power too, so it's an interesting thought.... The first time she used super speed and strength, and the second time she was able to multiply herself and control more than one body at once. (A personal goal!) I've always wanted to come across her again since then, but I never have. I wonder if I could incubate a meeting with her....

Wow, I was heading for a major sidebar there. Kinda had to stop myself. Anyway, I'd never thought about lucid introspection and thinking about personal issues (beyond interacting with the DCs of lost loved ones.) Lucid dreaming provides such unimaginably high levels of play and creativity that the idea of moving beyond that seems alien to me. I quite literally feel like I could fill thousands of years of dreaming with the range of things that I'd want to do. I'm the type, though, that never really gets bored. (I prefer the terms "creative and curious" to "easily amused".)

Haha, it's understandable. But I do think that anyone who sticks with lucid dreaming long enough will reach that point. I don't think it's so much that you run out of ideas but that the theme of your ideas change over time as you become more and more accustomed to the dream world, particularly the more psychedelic aspects of it. And this is just a personal thought, but I believe that the more you engage your mind in a lucid dream the more you'll see how much more incredible it can be than when you just chase your desires. Keep in mind that when I say that they use it for introspection, I mean they're still having crazier lucid dreams than I ever do. For example, I once was talking to someone about a dream they had where they were sitting in front of a wall of TV screens that each displayed different possible futures for their lives following different paths they could take, and they just sat there considering each screen one at a time and then watching them play out as a whole. That's just using their lucids for introspection and self-improvement, but it's still more incredible than my experiences!

I am not too familiar with the incubation "wheel". Is that a particular incubation approach? I'm intrigued because my incubation abilities are a bit spotty. I used to be a pretty good dream incubator when I was a kid but like so often happens, I "grew up" and let the skill atrophy long ago. I think that's the story with a lot of people. You have to wonder where we'd be if we'd only kept it up.

The wheel is a method that I've heard many people say they used as a kid, one that just came to them naturally. It would be like several different incubation scenarios would flash by on a wheel in their mind, and when they found one they liked they would just latch on to it and then that dream would happen. Totally unconnected people have reported this, I've seen it a pretty good number of times. I don't really know how one would go about pulling it off, other than just the obvious method of trying to visualize that word for word. I wish I knew more!

The only DC I can ever recall seeing twice actually had a lot of power too, so it's an interesting thought.... The first time she used super speed and strength, and the second time she was able to multiply herself and control more than one body at once. (A personal goal!) I've always wanted to come across her again since then, but I never have. I wonder if I could incubate a meeting with her....

Oh, now she sounds cool! The fact that she possessed all of these skills that interested makes her very intriguing. Maybe it's fanciful, but you can't help but wonder if she could somehow walk you through this stuff. I had a short lucid fragment where a DC was teaching me short-range teleportation, and it was oddly motivating!

Whatever your interest, I'll bet that surely you could arrange a meeting if you wanted one. I have high hopes for the "look-away-then-handshake" trick that I used last time to call Xanous, although the "the person is already right behind me, and I now I will turn around" technique seems to be pretty good too.

For example, I once was talking to someone about a dream they had where they were sitting in front of a wall of TV screens that each displayed different possible futures for their lives following different paths they could take, and they just sat there considering each screen one at a time and then watching them play out as a whole. That's just using their lucids for introspection and self-improvement, but it's still more incredible than my experiences!

Now that is a stunning image! Okay, you're right, it's clearly got nothing to do with being out of ideas. I guess it's about growing powerful enough to confront your own depth and complexity. I'm only powerful enough to play. Ah, but I love it so!

The wheel is a method that I've heard many people say they used as a kid, one that just came to them naturally. It would be like several different incubation scenarios would flash by on a wheel in their mind, and when they found one they liked they would just latch on to it and then that dream would happen. Totally unconnected people have reported this, I've seen it a pretty good number of times. I don't really know how one would go about pulling it off, other than just the obvious method of trying to visualize that word for word. I wish I knew more!

Very cool, thank you! So it's something that pops up naturally for a lot of young dream incubators but isn't well-studied or necessarily named... it's so similar to the cycles of hypnagogic imagery you get heading into a WILD. They just sort of flicker by until you finally latch on to one well enough to follow it under w/ your awareness intact. G+C seems to intensify this process (at least in my experience.) I wonder if it is the same/similar or a totally different experience compared to the wheel. Very intriguing...

Oh, now she sounds cool! The fact that she possessed all of these skills that interested makes her very intriguing. Maybe it's fanciful, but you can't help but wonder if she could somehow walk you through this stuff. I had a short lucid fragment where a DC was teaching me short-range teleportation, and it was oddly motivating!

Whatever your interest, I'll bet that surely you could arrange a meeting if you wanted one. I have high hopes for the "look-away-then-handshake" trick that I used last time to call Xanous, although the "the person is already right behind me, and I now I will turn around" technique seems to be pretty good too.

I actually would like to run into her again so that I could talk to her about those powers, it seems like as good a place as any to start working on them. Given how odd it must be to control two bodies at once, I could sure use any help I could get! Though, I'm actually already pretty sure I know how to do it... but knowing it and pulling it off smoothly are two different things lol. I always thought that getting advice from a DC would be a great way to force the expectation into your subconscious, as you seem to know already! I mean, what better way to learn than from your subconscious?

I've honestly never really had trouble summoning anyone, except for the first and maybe second time I tried (but even then it sort of worked, they were just blurry), these days I generally just turn to face them as if they were already there, and there they are. It's not even really conscious, I just know that they're back there so I need to look at them. The real issue is that I just never think of her while lucid.... It might just be because I haven't seen her in a long time, though. Maybe if I started trying to incubate her?

Now that is a stunning image! Okay, you're right, it's clearly got nothing to do with being out of ideas. I guess it's about growing powerful enough to confront your own depth and complexity. I'm only powerful enough to play. Ah, but I love it so!

Hehe, well I can't blame you for that. I'm not quite there yet either, I'm still having my fun.

Very cool, thank you! So it's something that pops up naturally for a lot of young dream incubators but isn't well-studied or necessarily named... it's so similar to the cycles of hypnagogic imagery you get heading into a WILD. They just sort of flicker by until you finally latch on to one well enough to follow it under w/ your awareness intact. G+C seems to intensify this process (at least in my experience.) I wonder if it is the same/similar or a totally different experience compared to the wheel. Very intriguing...

That's news to me. :O The only two WILDs I've had didn't really have any hypnagogia, they just suddenly started happening and came into full focus. What exactly is it like when you latch on to them? Is it like going from an image to a full scene?