Thread: AstronomyDomine's Workbook

yeah,lucid dream is natural to me.sorry for that sinus infection.

Welcome to the DILD workbooks Paul!

I will quote you to help me not miss anything that I want to cover.

Originally Posted by AstronomyDomine

I've had pretty good success thus far: averaging about 3 a month (that's great for me!), but I'd like to get to the place where I'm having at least 3-4 per week.

I am very confident that you can achieve this goal! I like stats and have some to give you an idea of my progression but don't see these as a cap - you can do better than I did if you want). I had some LDs as a child but I stopped paying attention to dreams until decades later (got back into it 4 years ago) and I am of a similar age to you.

LD Count Total at each anniversary + % increase to rate of LDs
2/1/14 @103 total LDs
2/1/15 @274 +66% rate of LDs by end of year two
2/1/16 @441 -2% temporary plateau through year three
2/1/17 @655 +28% improving LD rate again through year four
(I am starting this February slow…not a lot of pep in my step.)

I'm a big book person, and I've read the obligatory ETWOLD by LaBerge, as well as the phase stuff by Raduga. I've also read Waggoner & McCready and Yuschak.

Very nice, that is a good amount of material covered!

Out of curiosity I developed a sort of "lucid dreaming vision board" for my own use in aiding me on my journey to intentional lucidity. I figured that since creative visualization was so successful in helping me achieve goals in WL, it was certainly worth exploring its effectiveness in the realm of dreamscape. And it worked for me very well.

Anyone else reading: he made a thread on this vision board method which I think is worth checking out. (DV navigation tool: Click on username, choose profile and see the member's started threads on left side of profile.)

I feel now like I have to start all over.

No worries, you will have it back in no time...it's definitely not like starting over completely.

In the past, my efforts in WILDing have yielded only 1 LD -- and it was more of an OBE than anything else: The sitting up in my dream body, rolling out of bed and flying off into the night kind of dream. All the other WILD attempts gave me insomnia. Other than that WILD, all my other LDs have been via DILDs.

You are in the right place with the DILD workbooks then. You can always revisit WILDs later if you decide to but it seems like WILDs are not the best place to focus your efforts at this time, as you are eluding to.

It just seems I have to work so hard to achieve simple awareness in my dreams. Please don't get me wrong: the effort is wholly worth it. But I can't help but wonder: does it get any easier?

Yes, but it hasn't become effortless for me yet.

I think back to when I was 14 and learning how to play the guitar. It was very difficult at first, learning all the different chord patterns and fingering exercises. But now I am an accomplished classical guitarist and can sight read and play J.S. Bach fluently. Will lucid dreaming become sort of like that if I dedicate myself to all the hard work now? I hope so

You might ask Sensei the same question, although he is only something like 5 years into his practice. I have read other people's accounts of having been practicing longer where it seems almost like riding a bike perhaps. I am just not there to speak from first hand experience yet.

The biggest helper to have more lucid dreams is WBTB, IMO.

I am very confident that you can achieve this goal! I like stats and have some to give you an idea of my progression but don't see these as a cap - you can do better than I did if you want). I had some LDs as a child but I stopped paying attention to dreams until decades later (got back into it 4 years ago) and I am of a similar age to you.

LD Count Total at each anniversary + % increase to rate of LDs
2/1/14 @103 total LDs
2/1/15 @274 +66% rate of LDs by end of year two
2/1/16 @441 -2% temporary plateau through year three
2/1/17 @655 +28% improving LD rate again through year four
(I am starting this February slow…not a lot of pep in my step.)

Thank you so much for the wonderfully thoughtful and thorough reply! I sense that you really are dedicated to seeing others succeed in this area, and I count myself so fortunate to sit under your tutelage and encouragement! Seeing your stats really gave me great hope.

Last night I had an extremely vivid non lucid and woke up at around 1:30. After getting up to record it I went back to bed, doing a bit of the SSILD (first concentrating briefly on sight, hearing and then sensation) with my eyes closed. I noticed soon enough however that my mind was becoming more and more alert. Not good! To avoid full-blown insomnia, I immediately stopped my efforts and just tried to fall back asleep. I tossed and turned for roughly 30-45 minutes before falling back asleep (I was fortunate!). During that time, I observed plenty of vivid HH, but none of it led to dream awareness. I just floated off eventually into oblivious dream land. I was kind of bummed out when I woke up. It seems like there are so many occasions every night where I am presented with a springboard to launch into an LD, but my mind hardly ever seems to catch it. It's all so elusive!

I am normally able to fall back asleep after WBTB, but only if I don't overdo the mantras or visualizing or SSILD or FILD stuff. There's a very thin line I traverse when I do these things after WBTB and if not careful I can easily sabotage 3-4 hours of sleep with insomnia. I'm trying to find the right balance. It seems you have found it! That's great! Four years ago when you started this journey, did you struggle with the same issues we as beginners have? Can you give me some pointers at this stage in my journey? Thanks!

Thank you much for saying so! I do truly want to see as many people as possible be able to find the joy in lucid dreaming as often as they want to.

If you want a fairly lengthy write up of what I've done over the 4 years, it is found in the bio tab under my member profile, but I can't remember how much detail I went into regarding you question:

Originally Posted by AstronomyDomine

Four years ago when you started this journey, did you struggle with the same issues we as beginners have? Can you give me some pointers at this stage in my journey? Thanks!

I think I forget sometimes that I did have some issues with insomnia early on, but it seems like I resolved it before too long not giving me a ton of experience with combatting insomnia. The way I approached it was to continue doing the practices at WBTB that were often leading to insomnia (only counting insomnia episodes ranging from perhaps 20 minutes of trying to get to sleep up to around 1.5 hours...it rarely went anything above that range) - but only on nights when I could sleep in like the weekends or days off. That gave me the chance to experiment with falling asleep more easily without the stress of worrying about whether or not I would get to sleep. That worry or stress seems to compound the effect of insomnia so by keeping it to the weekends I was able to eliminate most of that worry or stress knowing I could sleep in to get all the sleep I needed.

SSILD and WBTB were huge helpers for me. I think WBTB helps almost anyone, and SSILD may be more up for debate as to what percentage of people it is ideal for. Almost all of my early LD's for maybe the first 1.5-2 years(??) were achieved after performing WBTB and then SSILD. I now mix in MILD maybe 50/50 with SSILD.

Let me know if you have any questions.

How exactly do you do your SSILD now, and have you tweaked it any since your beginning efforts? I tried it the night before last after a WBTB and I still didn't go lucid.

Just to clarify I am not saying that I got an LD every time I did WBTB + SSILD, just that almost all of the LDs I had were after performing WBTB + SSILD for the first 1.5 to 2 years. As requested, I found a previous description I wrote up for how I do SSILD:

"My variation with the cycles is to do two breaths focusing on the backs of my eyelids, two breaths focusing on hearing and then two breaths focusing a tactile feeling (I use the pressure that I can feel in my sternum area when laying on my back). This "warm-up" reminds me of how to focus on each of the 3 senses that make up SSILD and takes however long it takes to take 6 total breaths unless I start over due to feeling too sleepy to get the three points of focus correct. Then I combine the 3 senses into each breath. I focus on vision as I start to breathe in. I focus on hearing as I am at the transition from breathing in to breathing out. I focus on feeling as I am breathing out. When I am trying to DILD I will do this for 2-3 minutes and then attempt to fall asleep. Not being able to fall asleep on occasion is when I started experimenting with WILDs, sometimes with my sole intention being just to get to sleep but then when noticing the HH's I would remember various things I read about WILDing and experiment with them. Sometimes I would just fall asleep but more and more I was starting to succeed at WILDs. I found that my SSILD variation helps my WILDs in two ways. The first is that it does seem to create a bit of a trance like state which seems to help keep my mind from getting too active with "the noise" as Sageous says. The other way I feel it helps is like a WILD anchor, it is something to keep my intention in place while helping to create the fine line between just enough consciousness needed to become lucid and not so much consciousness that you stay awake. When trying to WILD I will do more repetitions of the combined cycles in each breath than when trying to DILD, but I may stop for a while especially if HHs occur. I may go back and do the combined cycles a few more breaths depending on if it feels right or if nothing seems to be happening. A few times I gave up, rolled over and only then did I quickly start to transition into a dream."

If you want to see some of the back and forth clarification I went through with that member's workbook you can find it by using control-f (find) with the search term cycle on this specific page: http://www.dreamviews.com/dild/14763...orkbook-3.html

Hi, Paul, and welcome to the DILD class! You've gotten a great start here with fogelbise, I'll just add a few things:

Since you like to read, I heartily encourage you to look into mindfulness and the dream yoga literature. My go-to works that I think give the most bang for the buck:

I believe every serious lucid dreaming practitioner should study these books:

+ "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep" by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. Particularly the short introductory chapter to the practice portion of the book is perhaps the most important writing on the relationship between awareness, mindfulness, lucidity and dreaming, ever! Here's a link

General mindfulness: "Wherever You Go, There You Are: Mindfulness Meditation In Everyday Life" by Jon Kabat-Zinn

Mindfulness and focus on lucid dreaming: "Dream Yoga: Illuminating Your Life Through Lucid Dreaming and the Tibetan Yogas of Sleep" by Andrew Holecek

These tomes resonated deeply with me, maybe they will with you, too.

I just came across this and really like it, I agree with just about everything he writes: Ian Wilson's Progressive Guide To Lucid Dreaming

The practice always takes effort. However, benefits do come with experience, practice, and time: increased results. Your baseline recall and vividness of the average dream will skyrocket with time. Lucidity for me rarely comes without several days of very focused intent. I can get onto a "hot streak" that way of several lucids per week, even several per night. Key is consistency of effort, and finding a way to work it into your everyday life, so that you're always doing some form of the practice. To do this you must find approaches that you enjoy to ensure that you do it regularly.

Positive outlook is very important. Do not equate a night without lucids as "failure." Celebrate recall and your dream experiences. Build a close relationship with your dreams, and the experiences will just keep getting better and better.

Hi Fogelbise and Fryingman.

Fryingman, you wrote this on another workbook I was reading: "I believe the best and most fruitful path forwards for dreaming and lucid dreaming is a holistic approach where we work in mindfulness to our everyday lives. When we learn to continually wake up to the present moment during the day, we'll begin doing the same in dreams. Your task is to find out just what way this will work best for you." Can you please elaborate on this a bit. What are some of the ways I can 'wake up to the present moment'? Is this different from doing a standard RC?

Also, how important are scheduled RCs in your opinion (this is for Fogelbise to chime in as well, btw)? I would do them all the time, but I found the occasion to use them for lucidity never seemed to come up in my dreams; when I would have a DILD I would just notice the aberration or dreamsign and then look at my hands or something and go lucid, but never the opposite. There was always something to first spur the RC I guess is what I'm trying to say. The reason I ask is I have an LD app on my phone that reminds me to do an RC at different times throughout the day, when there's nothing going on out of the ordinary. I just wondering how effective this practice really is.

Originally Posted by AstronomyDomine

Hi Fogelbise and Fryingman.

Fryingman, you wrote this on another workbook I was reading: "I believe the best and most fruitful path forwards for dreaming and lucid dreaming is a holistic approach where we work in mindfulness to our everyday lives. When we learn to continually wake up to the present moment during the day, we'll begin doing the same in dreams. Your task is to find out just what way this will work best for you." Can you please elaborate on this a bit. What are some of the ways I can 'wake up to the present moment'? Is this different from doing a standard RC?

Also, how important are scheduled RCs in your opinion (this is for Fogelbise to chime in as well, btw)? I would do them all the time, but I found the occasion to use them for lucidity never seemed to come up in my dreams; when I would have a DILD I would just notice the aberration or dreamsign and then look at my hands or something and go lucid, but never the opposite. There was always something to first spur the RC I guess is what I'm trying to say. The reason I ask is I have an LD app on my phone that reminds me to do an RC at different times throughout the day, when there's nothing going on out of the ordinary. I just wondering how effective this practice really is.

Hi AD: the point of awareness/mindfulness is to see through the self-imposed layers of illusion that we construct ourselves throughout our life, to penetrate to the truth of the present moment: where we are, what's happening right now, what are we thinking, how are we responding/behaving, and so on. Why is this interesting for lucid dreaming? A major part of any experience is what state we are in right now: waking or dreaming! Achieving the ability to frequently see the truth of the present moment (being mindful) means becoming lucid in dreams a lot more (in addition to a lot of waking life benefits). Being mindful means being lucid. You can read a lot more about this in the references I list in this lucid dreaming bibliography. They include "how tos" for starting to practice mindfulness (particularly "Wherever You Go, There You Are -- Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life" by Jon Kabat-Zinn, highly recommended!)

What RCs are: RCs are a very useful tool to quickly determine your state (awake or dreaming). But RCs do not themselves "raise awareness," that is a common misconception, that is not their purpose. Before you perform an RC you must feel the need to perform one. That need comes from an already heightened awareness/attention, reflection (thinking about the current present moment experience: is it dream-like? Something weird happens, etc.), and memory (both prospective [remembering to do something in the future] and retrospective [remembering the past]). Usually a combination of all of these.

Yes, you're right, there is *always* something that causes the RC. In my experience and in others I see, "random RCs" causing LDs just don't happen, or at least not very often. First comes raised awareness. The reason for doing an RC can be as simple as "hey I haven't done an RC in a while, let's check, you never know!". Because *any conscious moment* could be taking place in the dream state. Remembering this in dreams has gotten me several LDs in the past.

I believe it is best for the desire to RC to come from within. Alarms can help you to (re-) establish doing regular RCs, but it's best not to rely on them in the long-term.

Mindfulness is easy to start. Just a few times a day, just STOP what you're doing, thinking, etc., and just release all your tension, thoughts, worries, and relax completely into the present moment. Notice your breathing for 5 seconds, and let the truth of the present moment soak in. Finishing up a "stop" moment like this with an RC is a great thing to do as well. There are many great resources (see the bibliography) that teach where you can take it from there.

Okay! So, I had a VERY BRIEF LD last night, nestled between two non-lucids during a WBTB session. My last three LDs have been pretty tough for me to control once awareness kicked in. I never used to have that problem; normally my LD's were long and vivid and full of imagination and adventure. Now not so much. But I'm still celebrating! Any LD is ample cause to profusely celebrate in my book. It shows me that my mind is still able to facilitate awareness in a dream, regardless of what happens afterward.

In the dream I was travelling up and down an old concrete spiral stairwell, like in a castle turret. I could hear moaning, but wasn't sure if it was coming from me or someone else. At some point I felt myself lift off the stairs and levitate above them. Sensing this, I began to question my awareness. But it wasn't till I reached the bottom of the stairwell and tried to enter a narrow aperture in the wall that I discovered I was dreaming. I couldn't fit in it. I thought the whole ordeal was really strange, and I did a reality check. It was funny: I knew I was dreaming before I did the RC, but did it anyway just for the hell of it. My hands had mutated, my fingers were cut off and there was an intelligent green eyeball in the center of my palm blinking back at me. Yep, was dreaming lol. But as soon as I registered lucidity, I felt the dream slipping away. I was not overly excited to be in an LD (at least I didn't feel excited), yet things were beginning to fade quickly. I thought to myself stabilize quickly! but before I could take any action by spinning or rubbing my hands, I had lost control. In fact, I recall willing myself to take action with a completely calm and rational mind, but my dream body was frozen and would not comply. Apparently there was nothing I could do to keep the LD going. But, still, I am celebrating this morning!

My ultimate goal as soon as I am able to stabilize and have a healthy and prolonged LD again is to ask myself a series of questions which pertain to me in WL: My wife's name and birthdate. My SSN. My driver license #. My kids' names and birthdays. My anniversary date. My address and cell phone #, etc. From what I understand, this is a very powerful and efficacious thing to do in an LD which promotes an erosion in the wall of awareness separating waking life and dream lucidity.

Btw, I ordered "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep" by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. Looking forward to digging in! Thanks for everything guys!

Congrats on the LD! Yes that's the right way: celebrate all forms of success. Dreams are delicate and different every time and highly dependent on our state at the moment of the dream, and our state is always in flux, we can't expect that they will be identical every single time. The adventurous and long LDs will return, be sure of that. Continue to celebrate and enjoy all your dreams, non-lucid and lucid alike.

I think reaching for waking memory is a good thing. But note that prolonged inner "contemplation," seeking waking memories, and so forth, pull your attention away from the dream environment. I recommend maintaining at least partial focus on the dream scene and your dream body. Keep your glance moving around the dream scene smoothly, and keep your dream body in motion at least a little. Then work in the reaching for waking memory little by little. I think this would be best for maintaining the dream.

Enjoy the book, it's awesome, especially the practice section. When you finish it I also recommend the Holecek (and all the books in the bibliography post in the DILD class sticky posts) book which has a similar yet different in some ways with different kinds of insights and information.

I recommend maintaining at least partial focus on the dream scene and your dream body. Keep your glance moving around the dream scene smoothly, and keep your dream body in motion at least a little. Then work in the reaching for waking memory little by little. I think this would be best for maintaining the dream.

Very good advice, and one I'll definitely adhere to. I remember reading about people not being able to continue an LD once awareness kicked in, usually due to overexcitement or something that jolts them back to wakefulness. I've never had to worry about that problem. Once I entered an LD, I just instinctively knew what to do and could always make the adventure last. Now, I'm having trouble keeping them. It seems like I start losing it as soon as I notice the failed RC. Anyone else encounter this? On one hand I'm happy to have an LD; on the other, though it can be a little dismaying to have all these "still births" lol. Any tricks of the trade to share?

Also, I think there are diminishing returns for extended periods of time stabilizing. In fact, once I lost a LD *while* stabilizing, which I did, not because of any issue with the dream, but just because I thought "it's a good thing to do." I think the best stabilization is just going about your business in the dream and having a really good time. I think 15-20 seconds is enough to go through a quick ritual then get down to business. Of course, if that contemplation *is* what you like doing best in a dream, by all means, go for it. I've also read reports that people who meditate in a dream have astonishing experiences.

Originally Posted by AstronomyDomine

Once I entered an LD, I just instinctively knew what to do and could always make the adventure last. Now, I'm having trouble keeping them. It seems like I start losing it as soon as I notice the failed RC. Anyone else encounter this? On one hand I'm happy to have an LD; on the other, though it can be a little dismaying to have all these "still births" lol. Any tricks of the trade to share?

Can you think of anything you are doing differently? Different techniques perhaps? My FA's tend to be shorter and if you are getting more FA's (realized FA's or not...a good clue is that you are close to home or a bedroom setting of some kind even if you can't recall all the way back to the mundane waking part), that could play a factor in getting more LDs but increasing the percentage that are shorter.

I am starting to put real effort into maintaining a sense of mindfulness/awareness/vigilance during the day. It really is astonishing how unruly my thoughts are, and in general how challenging it is to keep a cohesive, lucid mindset for more than 5 minutes. If my rate of WL mindfulness were a circle, only 2% of it would be illuminated and the remaining 98% dark lol. It's akin to setting a new work-out regiment at the gym. Everything in you screams out in protest. The Dzogchen Buddhists talk about doing forced "Zhine" whereby the mind is eventually stilled via object-fixated meditation. Perhaps this is the missing key: It's something I'm currently not doing.

Question: For those of you who practice ADA or Dream Yoga or anything which promotes mindfulness or awareness during waking hours to subconsciously bleed over into dreams, do you practice zhine? Do you meditate regularly in conjunction with your ADA practice? Are there any tips to share for those who are beginning this technique? After achieving sufficient awareness/mindfulness whereby lucidity is regularly occurring for you at night, are you still doing WBTB (or any kind of MILDing at all)? Finally, how often were you being mindful during the day (IRL), before you started having the corresponding LDs? Just trying to get an idea; I'm grasping at anything to boost my confidence and to see some light at the end of the tunnel

I have practiced zhine for very short periods of time (just a handful of times). I think it does help, as does taking "mindful/lucid" walks, as does traditional mindfulness meditation. My problem with zhine is that my vision is deteriorating and I think focusing on close-up objects for extended periods of time is bad for my eyes. So I prefer "living meditation," during walks and just everyday life.

In the beginning it really takes effort because it is our nature to drift towards the mindless/automatic.

My tips:

+ realize it's more about relaxation than about hard focus. When you relax and let those never-ending thought chains quiet down and start to really notice what's going on around (and in) you. This should help also avoid becoming tired from it. Relaxation should be more rejuvenating than tiring. Yes there is mental effort involved in doing it, but not all that much IMO.

+ I have read several anecdotal reports that mindfulness meditation done within the hour before bedtime dramatically increases nighttime lucidity and vividness of dreams. I can report that those times where I'm really thinking about dreaming (writing long DJ entries, reading LD literature) right before bed has very often resulted in heightened lucidity and amazing dreams during the night.

I recommend reading "Wherever You Go, There You Are -- Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life" by Jon Kabat-Zinn. Even though it's not specifically about dreaming, I think it is the single best resource on practicing mindfulness. Particularly the introduction and first several chapters. Haven't finished it yet but I love the early part.

+ just keep doing it!

I found that within a few months of really trying to stay mindful I'd realized my dreams had become amazingly, regularly vivid. With a happy, relaxed, stress-free life and a regular sleep schedule, I was having long, vivid, "alternate life" level of dreams almost on a nightly basis. I don't think it takes the place of WBTB or MILD, to get lucid you still need strong, focused intention for lucidity in dreams.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I have practiced zhine for very short periods of time (just a handful of times). I think it does help, as does taking "mindful/lucid" walks, as does traditional mindfulness meditation. My problem with zhine is that my vision is deteriorating and I think focusing on close-up objects for extended periods of time is bad for my eyes. So I prefer "living meditation," during walks and just everyday life.

In the beginning it really takes effort because it is our nature to drift towards the mindless/automatic.

My tips:

+ realize it's more about relaxation than about hard focus. When you relax and let those never-ending thought chains quiet down and start to really notice what's going on around (and in) you. This should help also avoid becoming tired from it. Relaxation should be more rejuvenating than tiring. Yes there is mental effort involved in doing it, but not all that much IMO.

+ I have read several anecdotal reports that mindfulness meditation done within the hour before bedtime dramatically increases nighttime lucidity and vividness of dreams. I can report that those times where I'm really thinking about dreaming (writing long DJ entries, reading LD literature) right before bed has very often resulted in heightened lucidity and amazing dreams during the night.

I recommend reading "Wherever You Go, There You Are -- Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life" by Jon Kabat-Zinn. Even though it's not specifically about dreaming, I think it is the single best resource on practicing mindfulness. Particularly the introduction and first several chapters. Haven't finished it yet but I love the early part.

+ just keep doing it!

I found that within a few months of really trying to stay mindful I'd realized my dreams had become amazingly, regularly vivid. With a happy, relaxed, stress-free life and a regular sleep schedule, I was having long, vivid, "alternate life" level of dreams almost on a nightly basis. I don't think it takes the place of WBTB or MILD, to get lucid you still need strong, focused intention for lucidity in dreams.

"Wherever you go, there you are" is the next book on my list for sure. It's interesting you mention doing the mindfulness/meditation exercises shortly before bed, because I was thinking the same thing. It just makes sense. I also have a vision board method I constructed that I know works if it's done diligently shortly before bed. I am wanting to combine the ASA mindfulness and my vision board technique intensely one hour before bedtime -- and with the intention of not neglecting WBTB.

P.S. Another book that was recommended for the purpose of establishing mindfulness habits beneficial to lucid dreamers is https://www.amazon.com/How-Train-Wil.../dp/1590308174. Has anyone heard of it? Got real good reviews on Amazon.

Bam! Lucidity achieved last night (this morning), though it happened in an unconventional way. It was a DILD, which started out as a very vivid NLD flying dream. I am not able to recall how or when it suddenly went from being a NLD to an LD: I never once did an RC. I just intuitively knew I was lucid. Of course, I could have been dreaming in a NLD that I was lucid. How the hell would I know? I was with a female DC and I was instructing her how to navigate through the inside of a dark and empty office building. I told her we can go through the walls if we wanted; no need for us to go through the doorways. When the lights did finally came on (no recollection on how they did - my recall for this one was subpar), my pretty DC friend was sitting on a counter and I suddenly had the impulse for sex. She hopped down off the counter and I embraced her from behind and we went down to the floor. We started kissing and getting undressed. She was cute! I was very happy I was finally going to have lucid sex; the sensations were so intense. As we kissed, I thought of doing an RC. But before I could do anything I felt my wife get back in bed IRL after getting up to go to the bathroom. It distracted my concentration and the DC girl froze beneath me and I was slowly brought out of the dream.

Anyway, I was surprised the way this LD came about. Never had a seamless transition from a NLD to an LD like that without first doing an RC. This LD came about from looking at my VB (vision board) and practicing mindfulness for about 30 minutes before bed and writing down my intention of having an LD that night on a piece of paper. So, it worked! And today I am celebrating Would have been nice to go all the way and "seal the deal" with that cute DC though. But the little we did do was so unbelievably intense, I can only imagine how awesome the continuation would have been. Psyched for more!

Originally Posted by AstronomyDomine

After achieving sufficient awareness/mindfulness whereby lucidity is regularly occurring for you at night, are you still doing WBTB (or any kind of MILDing at all)?

I don't feel that I am at a level of mindfulness to be able to answer this. Do the sleep yoga masters seem to claim that mindfulness would be enough for consistent LDs FM? Here on the forums, our very own Sageous has said things like "In my opinion self-awareness pretty much equals mindfulness, so yes, mindfulness will increase self-awareness. And vise-verse." which was found in this post: http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ml#post2193957. He also said "These self-awareness moments don't give you a better chance of lucidity, Darksyntax, they are lucidity." found in this other post in the same thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ml#post2194031.

Originally Posted by AstronomyDomine

Of course, I could have been dreaming in a NLD that I was lucid. How the hell would I know?

I would enjoy the dream as it is either way. Sounded like a fun one! Now if you want to further explore your question above, I can point you to a link that many people took the wrong way initially so I will start with a quick preface in case you decide to explore the link (which I think is valuable if you consider it in the correct light).

Spoiler for My preface to the link - recommend to read before following the link -:

Keep in mind that the following thread is not about others questioning whether you have had a true lucid dream. It is instead a tool for you to use to ask yourself if you have had a true lucid dream. A way to prove to yourself what you experienced after you have woken up. It may take reading the whole thread and asking questions before it becomes completely clear. It can also have the benefit of pushing you to strive for more out of your lucid dreams during the dreams, as you want to really feel your presence in the dreams and you may find yourself looking for ways to prove to yourself during the dream that you know exactly what is happening in that moment.

Spoiler for Link:

Link: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ise-proof.html

Congratulations on the dream either way! It sounded like an LD to me.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

I don't feel that I am at a level of mindfulness to be able to answer this. Do the sleep yoga masters seem to claim that mindfulness would be enough for consistent LDs FM?

Dream yoga involves multiple practices in addition to mindfulness, so I guess the simple answer is "no, it is not enough." They also practice setting strong intent, praying for lucidity, noticing wakings in the night (WBTB, at least micro-WBTB) with resetting intention, and a form of WILD. In addition to general mindfulness they practice "illusory form," where they consider all conscious experience as a dream. It's sort of a mindfulness/lucidity hybrid practice. So their particular "truth of the present moment" is that the present moment is a dream. They wake in the morning and recall dreams and assert "that was a dream, but I didn't recognize it for a dream" for any dreams where they did not get lucid.

Details in the dream yoga resources in my LD bibliography ....

Originally Posted by fogelbise

I don't feel that I am at a level of mindfulness to be able to answer this. Do the sleep yoga masters seem to claim that mindfulness would be enough for consistent LDs FM? Here on the forums, our very own Sageous has said things like "In my opinion self-awareness pretty much equals mindfulness, so yes, mindfulness will increase self-awareness. And vise-verse." which was found in this post: http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ml#post2193957. He also said "These self-awareness moments don't give you a better chance of lucidity, Darksyntax, they are lucidity." found in this other post in the same thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ml#post2194031.

I would enjoy the dream as it is either way. Sounded like a fun one! Now if you want to further explore your question above, I can point you to a link that many people took the wrong way initially so I will start with a quick preface in case you decide to explore the link (which I think is valuable if you consider it in the correct light).

Spoiler for My preface to the link - recommend to read before following the link -:

Keep in mind that the following thread is not about others questioning whether you have had a true lucid dream. It is instead a tool for you to use to ask yourself if you have had a true lucid dream. A way to prove to yourself what you experienced after you have woken up. It may take reading the whole thread and asking questions before it becomes completely clear. It can also have the benefit of pushing you to strive for more out of your lucid dreams during the dreams, as you want to really feel your presence in the dreams and you may find yourself looking for ways to prove to yourself during the dream that you know exactly what is happening in that moment.

Spoiler for Link:

Link: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ise-proof.html

Congratulations on the dream either way! It sounded like an LD to me.

Thanks! And thank you for sending me that thread. I concur with the mind recalling an LD differently from an NLD. A typical LD recall for me is more akin to a normal waking memory, like something I'd remember doing IRL after a few hours and then remembering all the details -- after all, my conscious mind recorded it, so it makes sense to me. The recall for an LD is pretty much effortless. Conversely, the DILD that spawned it I hardly remember at all. It was a vivid flying dream, but I hardly remember any details other than flying; the moment I realized I was lucid in it, however, everything changed. And I can still recall the LD details with freshness, even now at 7:00 PM (I had it at 2:00 AM). So, yeah, I'm convinced it was an LD LOL. The exercises I'm doing in mindfulness, in conjunction with the vision board really seem to be efficacious. Gonna keep trying it and see what happens. Writing down my intentions to lucid dream also seem to work.

Originally Posted by AstronomyDomine

The exercises I'm doing in mindfulness, in conjunction with the vision board really seem to be efficacious.

Agreed, this sounds like a very nice combination for you.

Yeah, that tool/link is only necessary if any doubt creeps in…and then in those cases it's just a personal tool. You never have to worry about proving anything to us.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

Agreed, this sounds like a very nice combination for you.

Yeah, that tool/link is only necessary if any doubt creeps in…and then in those cases it's just a personal tool. You never have to worry about proving anything to us.

Oh, trust me. I realize that and I appreciate the heads up. You guys are fantastic. I was a moderator for about 7 years on a fundamental Christian theological website so I know the ins and outs of threaded discussions and disputes and agendas and contentions. This place is pretty much a cakewalk compared to where I've been And besides, it's good to have a tool whereby to gauge your own experiences. I count myself very fortunate to have met you and FM and some others here. And I'm also glad I've finally found an LD methodology that seems to work for me!

I did the repeat thing last night, and although I didn't go lucid, I had an extremely vivid NLD where I was talking to a lady about my DJ and lucid dreaming. I explained what an LD was to her in detail, and we had a real discussion. But I don't recall having that distinct "awareness" where I knew I was lucid in the dream (if I did I'd probably try to seduce her LOL). Nevertheless, the recall of it this morning is fantastic. Much, much better than the NLDs I'd been having without the methodology. So -- the way I see it, a vivid NLD where we are discussing lucid dreaming is pretty much a victory too

Thank you for all the kind words AD!

Originally Posted by AstronomyDomine

So -- the way I see it, a vivid NLD where we are discussing lucid dreaming is pretty much a victory too

Definitely! There can be much value and enjoyment in those kinds of dreams too. I love it when it feels like I just stepped out of another world into this one. It sounds like we had similar dreams last night - talking about LD's to a DC. I was even showing a DC how I fly in LDs, chuckle. I was also talking about some new series on Showtime that completely revolves around lucid dreaming...I don't believe there is such a series but it started out as a discussion about Westworld (HBO) and had some kind of dreamy transition to me talking about a completely made up series complete with scenes replaying in front of me. Dreams are crazy.