Thread: Justin Bieber Discussion

Let's talk about how the market works.

Although I can agree that the producers play a small part in controlling what people buy through means of advertisement, I still think it's safe to say that the market system is mainly controlled by the need of the consumers. This applies to everything produced for the purpose of profit - music included. Obviously, the island records did not sign a contract with Justin Bieber just for the hell of if. No, they wanted to make money out of it. This, however, is by no means limited to artists similar to Justin Bieber, but also applies to all bands/artists with a record contract that you're personally interested in, tommo. In other words, if the producers don't think they can make money out of the product, they won't produce it. The reason to why they signed a contract with an artist such as Justin Bieber was because they made the assumption that he was a needed product, which turned out to be completely correct. The key to Justin Bieber's success does not lie within the fact that "some 12-year old girls" like his music. It lies within the fact that a huge cultural group wants this kind of product. This is a fact that you, me, or any other person alone can't change. A LOT of people like him for what he does, and that's an undeniable fact. Your whole argument is based on the foundation that you somehow stand above this brainless crowd of adolescent girls. Let me tell you this: You don't. I'll explain why in a second.

Now let's apply what I've said above on you.

I'm going to be bold and make the assumption that you, tommo, like some sort of movies. I'm going to use the action packed movie "The fast and the furious" as an example. Even if you're not a fan of the movie, please try to put yourself into the mind of someone liking it, just for the sake of the argument. The latest fast and the furious movie is a high budget action movie filled with cars, effects, fights, and hot chicks. Apparently this is a market concept that appeals to a huge audiance consisting mainly of males within the age range of 13-30. They've already produced 5 sequels to the first movie, showing that it is indeed a fantastic product. The only problem with these movies is that I don't personally like them. In general I hate the kind of stuff that is usually being shown at the movies theaters in Sweden. To me the fast and the furious movies are: braindead, chew-and-spit, story-lacking, overall shitty movies. I'd much rather see the cinema market being dominated by creative, profound movies similar to most Stanley Kubrick movies. I'd also love to see more european and asian productions, but I can't because everything they ever show is pointless action movies for people who're not smart enough to comprehend the beauty of a more abstract concept. This is how I feel.

The question to you (in this case the fast and the furious loving person) is: Does this put me in position of oppressing the fans of the movie "the fast and the furious fans" simply because of the fact that that's the way I feel about it?

If yes, then you are, by defintion, what people refer to as ignorant.

Originally Posted by XeL

Your whole argument is based on the foundation that you somehow stand above this brainless crowd of adolescent girls. Let me tell you this: You don't. I'll explain why in a second.

Originally Posted by XeL

everything they ever show is pointless action movies for people who're not smart enough to comprehend the beauty of a more abstract concept.

Is being more intelligent not "standing above" the people who you are more intelligent than?
We wouldn't be alive right now if not for our intelligence. If there is a marker for where you stand in relation to others, it is intelligence.

This also has nothing to do with my argument.
You know that in the mainstream music industry, there is a set structure for a song which almost guarantees it will be popular? Or at the least, liked by people with less musical sense.

It's something along the lines of this:


Or maybe this is more fitting:


My point is that people should be using music to expand their consciousness and knowledge, and promote their ideals. Not to simply feed their fans/their own empty and superficial desires.

inb4: That's their idea of what music should be, why do you think your view is more accurate or what music should be?

If you're not going to reply to my whole post, please don't reply at all. You've still not provided me with an answer to anything written above. For the sake of simplicity, please answer my last question with a yes or a no.

Is being more intelligent not "standing above" the people who you are more intelligent than?

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough. What I want to say is that neither you, nor me, stand above them because we're also a part of the same system. It's not a matter of intelligence at all. Compare the two examples I provided above.

You know that in the mainstream music industry, there is a set structure for a song which almost guarantees it will be popular? Or at the least, liked by people with less musical sense.

Read my post one more time. What you state here is completely irrelevant.

My point is that people should be using music to expand their consciousness and knowledge, and promote their ideals. Not to simply feed their fans/their own empty and superficial desires.

I feel exactly the same about movies. The difference between you and me is that you use superiority to justify hatred, and then make a point out of it. I dont. Read my post one more time carefully, please.

Geez this thread is troll this troll that.

Originally Posted by XeL

If you're not going to reply to my whole post, please don't reply at all. You've still not provided me with an answer to anything written above. For the sake of simplicity, please answer my last question with a yes or a no.



Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough. What I want to say is that neither you, nor me, stand above them because we're also a part of the same system. It's not a matter of intelligence at all. Compare the two examples I provided above.



Read my post one more time. What you state here is completely irrelevant.



I feel exactly the same about movies. The difference between you and me is that you use superiority to justify hatred, and then make a point out of it. I dont. Read my post one more time carefully, please.

No you read my post. I missed one question so you ignore 90% of what I said.

Please point out what I ignored in your post.

Now you guys have your own little Beiber thread.

One of the worst tragedies to ever strike mankind was Justin Bieber's Christmas Album

Tommo you can argue all you want, but you're never going to get anywhere. What it really comes down to is this: You hate Justin Bieber and everyone who likes him, and you're trying to make it a fact that you're right. It's not enough for you to just hold an opinion, you need other people to share that opinion with you, or else they're wrong.

Sorry buddy, this is an argument you can't win. If you want to continue acting like a pretentious knob and pettifog the issue only when it suits your argument, then go right ahead. Just know that I can see right through your bullshit, and you really don't have a leg to stand on. You simply cannot win an argument based on a personal preference. I'm sorry man that's just the way it is, I didn't make the rules.

^I'm pretty sure he's come to that realization by now. Otherwise he probably wouldn't ragetype stuff such as: "You ignore 90% of what I said" when I adress every single point in his post.

This is the most entertaining exchange I've read in a long time, those videos were funny.

I'll just say first that I'm really tired and not entirely certain that what I've typed below is valid. It's just an idea to consider.

No music is objectively better than any other music. I think everyone can agree on that. The enjoyment of music is a personal experience.

But the same can be said for morality. Murder and stealing aren't objectively wrong, and saving someone's life isn't objectively right.

Yet, in a way, murder is wrong. It's wrong because we agree as a society that life is valuable, and it becomes appropriate to look down on murderers. To us, murder becomes wrong in a semi-objective sense.

The same can be said for music. Almost everyone, even the people who listen to Justin Bieber, would probably agree that creativity, intelligence, individuality, expanding the mind, maturing, etc. are positive attributes that should be striven for. So when a type of music promotes the absence of these qualities, we can say that people who listen to the music, yet claim to value the positive qualities only found in other music, are doing something 'wrong'. They're living in contradiction.

Either they are failing to use their minds enough to think and realize that the music they're listening to promotes conformity, immaturity, bad ideals, etc., or they realize that the music is 'bad' but continue to listen to it because they're addicted.

Originally Posted by Dianeva

This is the most entertaining exchange I've read in a long time, those videos were funny.

I'll just say first that I'm really tired and not entirely certain that what I've typed below is valid. It's just an idea to consider.

No music is objectively better than any other music. I think everyone can agree on that. The enjoyment of music is a personal experience.

But the same can be said for morality. Murder and stealing aren't objectively wrong, and saving someone's life isn't objectively right.

Yet, in a way, murder is wrong. It's wrong because we agree as a society that life is valuable, and it becomes appropriate to look down on murderers. To us, murder becomes wrong in a semi-objective sense.

The same can be said for music. Almost everyone, even the people who listen to Justin Bieber, would probably agree that creativity, intelligence, individuality, expanding the mind, maturing, etc. are positive attributes that should be striven for. So when a type of music promotes the absence of these qualities, we can say that people who listen to the music, yet claim to value the positive qualities only found in other music, are doing something 'wrong'. They're living in contradiction.

Either they are failing to use their minds enough to think and realize that the music they're listening to promotes conformity, immaturity, bad ideals, etc., or they realize that the music is 'bad' but continue to listen to it because they're addicted.

Murder is immoral because you take another person's life without his/her consent. That's hardly comparable to the act of intentionally listening to Justin Bieber.

These quotes need special attention:

The same can be said for music. Almost everyone, even the people who listen to Justin Bieber, would probably agree that creativity, intelligence, individuality, expanding the mind, maturing, etc. are positive attributes that should be striven for

Please show me where it's written in stone that music needs to have a profound meaning. I sometimes listen to shitty techno just because it makes me feel relaxed. It definitely doesn't cultivate my mind.

So when a type of music promotes the absence of these qualities, we can say that people who listen to the music, yet claim to value the positive qualities only found in other music, are doing something 'wrong'. They're living in contradiction

This is your claim. It assumes that Justin Bieber's songs lack above said qualities, and is therefore biased.

Originally Posted by XeL

This is your claim. It assumes that Justin Bieber's songs lack above said qualities, and is therefore biased.

I think it is written in stone that "his" songs do lack these qualities. She wasn't being biased at all, it's just a fact.

Anyway, I love how you two think you know my exact reasons for saying what I was saying. It's really quite hilarious. Saying you "can see right through me" and such. Almost sounds like Beiber lyrics.

Originally Posted by tommo

I think it is written in stone that "his" songs do lack these qualities. She wasn't being biased at all, it's just a fact.

Anyway, I love how you two think you know my exact reasons for saying what I was saying. It's really quite hilarious. Saying you "can see right through me" and such. Almost sounds like Beiber lyrics.

Then why do you refuse to answer my questions? There are two main questions as for now.

The question to you (in this case the fast and the furious loving person) is: Does this put me in position of oppressing the fans of the movie "the fast and the furious fans" simply because of the fact that that's the way I feel about it?

And

Please point out what I ignored in your post.

Originally Posted by tommo

Anyway, I love how you two think you know my exact reasons for saying what I was saying. It's really quite hilarious. Saying you "can see right through me" and such. Almost sounds like Beiber lyrics.

The important thing to note here is that tommo doesn't actually counter my reasons, he simply deflects by pretending it's "hilarious" to him, then tries to downplay getting owned by posting a lame Bieber joke. You're not as tough to read as you think, buddy.

Originally Posted by CRAZY BONE

Yeah I am too, that's why I keep posting and "feeding" the troll. He came in here thinking he wouldn't be challenged with his responses, and when he actually does, he defense is to ignore the response and continue "trolling." What he doesn't realize is that you can't troll someone who is aware of being trolled. So I'm just enjoying watching him get shit on by all these posters who use actual logic and intelligence in their responses.

No.... He came here in order to get an angry response. And you've been giving him exactly what he wants time and time again. And you totally can troll someone who knows they are being trolled, he's doing it to you right now.... What you are watching is him ROFLing because people continue to feed him no matter how obvious he makes it.

Originally Posted by CRAZY BONE

The important thing to note here is that tommo doesn't actually counter my reasons, he simply deflects by pretending it's "hilarious" to him, then tries to downplay getting owned by posting a lame Bieber joke. You're not as tough to read as you think, buddy.

Of course he doesn't use reason. When has trolling ever involved reason? It simply involves getting a reaction. Which he is doing quite well.

Right now you're getting angry and defensive while he is getting laughs. What should have simply been ignored now has it's own thread. You've given him more success than he ever could have hoped for. Way to go.... You lose the game...

Wow all my posts teleported. I was trying to have a discussion about some good old fashioned R&B!

Originally Posted by XeL

Murder is immoral because you take another person's life without his/her consent. That's hardly comparable to the act of intentionally listening to Justin Bieber.

The amount of damage they do isn't comparable, just like a pin prick isn't comparable to being stabbed. But they both involve sensations of pain, so you can explain to someone what it might be like to be stabbed by comparing the sensation to a pin prick and saying "it's like that but worse". (Except in this case "it's like that but not as bad.")

Please show me where it's written in stone that music needs to have a profound meaning. I sometimes listen to shitty techno just because it makes me feel relaxed. It definitely doesn't cultivate my mind.

I wouldn't consider techno music to be nearly as bad. I don't listen to it, but it doesn't contain words, does it? It probably has a neutral effect on the mind. The fast pace might even serve to motivate you. My problem with Justin Bieber's music and other music like it isn't that it doesn't cultivate the mind. It's that it does the opposite. It distorts people's senses of reality and deadens the mind.

This is your claim. It assumes that Justin Bieber's songs lack above said qualities, and is therefore biased.

First off, you're accusing me of having a false premise, not of being biased.

There are some bad TV sitcoms that sicken me. Those ones where the wife is a stay-at-home bitch who never wants sex and frequently yells at her husband for no good reason, and the husband is an emotionless lazy beer-loving idiot. Such shows may be exaggerated versions of what some family structures are in real life, and that's why people enjoy watching them initially. But they only serve to enforce the stereotypes, to distort people's views of reality and hinder any progress in the opposite direction, away from those stereotypes.

Frequently listening to Bieber and music like his has a similar effect on young girls. It gives them a distorted view of love. It makes relationships sound so unrealistically simple that, when they end up with relationships of their own, they'll give up on a person who is even slightly flawed, or if any small thing goes wrong.

Not only that, but the girls who listen to the music are often infatuated with Justin Bieber himself, who they can never have, leaving them with a faulty sense of loss. I suspect that a lot of these girls use him to compare any potential boyfriends with, and are likely to be attracted only to boys who are similar to Bieber. This sets a standard for boys in the same age group, to act like Justin Bieber. If he fails to treat his girlfriend like a goddess, to put her first always, smiling all the while, he'll likely be thrown aside.

Originally Posted by LikesToTrip

No.... He came here in order to get an angry response. And you've been giving him exactly what he wants time and time again. And you totally can troll someone who knows they are being trolled, he's doing it to you right now

Why would I be angry? I'm the one having all the fun. I get to break his arguments dry wood and watch him scramble to protect his ego increasingly desperate tactics.

The whole "I'm trolling" thing is just a fall back for when tommo loses the argument, cause then he can pretend like he never gave a shit in the first place. I don't know if you've noticed, but he's been typing up big paragraph responses to XeL and others; pretty odd behavior for a supposed troll who doesn't give a shit.

Unfortunately tommo has stopped responding so now the fun is over, he probably realized that he's the only one getting flustered over this shit. The poor bastard got trolled by himself

Originally Posted by CRAZY BONE

Why would I be angry? I'm the one having all the fun. I get to break his arguments dry wood and watch him scramble to protect his ego increasingly desperate tactics.

My troll arguments. Well done.

I typed up big paragraphs because XeL actually had something of substance to respond to. And I wasn't trolling there, for the most part.
This has been fun though, too bad you can't stand losing.

Originally Posted by tommo

This has been fun though, too bad you can't stand losing.

Originally Posted by Dianeva

The amount of damage they do isn't comparable, just like a pin prick isn't comparable to being stabbed. But they both involve sensations of pain, so you can explain to someone what it might be like to be stabbed by comparing the sensation to a pin prick and saying "it's like that but worse". (Except in this case "it's like that but not as bad.")



I wouldn't consider techno music to be nearly as bad. I don't listen to it, but it doesn't contain words, does it? It probably has a neutral effect on the mind. The fast pace might even serve to motivate you. My problem with Justin Bieber's music and other music like it isn't that it doesn't cultivate the mind. It's that it does the opposite. It distorts people's senses of reality and deadens the mind.



First off, you're accusing me of having a false premise, not of being biased.

There are some bad TV sitcoms that sicken me. Those ones where the wife is a stay-at-home bitch who never wants sex and frequently yells at her husband for no good reason, and the husband is an emotionless lazy beer-loving idiot. Such shows may be exaggerated versions of what some family structures are in real life, and that's why people enjoy watching them initially. But they only serve to enforce the stereotypes, to distort people's views of reality and hinder any progress in the opposite direction, away from those stereotypes.

Frequently listening to Bieber and music like his has a similar effect on young girls. It gives them a distorted view of love. It makes relationships sound so unrealistically simple that, when they end up with relationships of their own, they'll give up on a person who is even slightly flawed, or if any small thing goes wrong.

Not only that, but the girls who listen to the music are often infatuated with Justin Bieber himself, who they can never have, leaving them with a faulty sense of loss. I suspect that a lot of these girls use him to compare any potential boyfriends with, and are likely to be attracted only to boys who are similar to Bieber. This sets a standard for boys in the same age group, to act like Justin Bieber. If he fails to treat his girlfriend like a goddess, to put her first always, smiling all the while, he'll likely be thrown aside.

I'm shocked. Are you uncapable of arguing on an objective basis? Don't you understand that this is not about how YOU feel, it's about how the listeners feel. They want this kind of music. They like this kind of music. It has a personal value to them. It's not up to YOU to decide whether or not it's good enough.

I'm surprised that you repeatedly form arguments based solely on your own belief, and then state them as if they were facts.

Murder and listening to Justin Bieber is still not comparable. A murder is direct action with a direct effect. Correct me if I'm rephrasing your words poorly here, but what you're trying to say is basically: If you listen to Justin biebers music, this and this and this will happen indirectly and that's bad for you.

This statement is once again not backed up by any scientific data, just your own opinion.

Perhaps you could also answer my question above? Does my own personal hatred towards the fast and the furious movies justify oppression towards the fans of the movie?