Thread: why are we so obsessed with proving other people wrong and making ourselves look good?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Not all, just some, hence my use of the conjunction "or" or the qualifier, "if."

Well you said that the reason people are homophobic are because of this defense mechanism which you additionally states proves that they are just homosexuals in denial or from cultural prejudice apparently from the bible which has only been around for several centuries.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

They may follow the Bible because they think it's the word of the perfect creator of the universe. They may have been indoctrinated at a young age. They may have been taught, unconsciously and subtly, that asking questions like, "Is homosexuality really bad?" or "Why do I believe this?" is a sin because, after all, who are any of us to question God himself?
It's not just the Bible, many cultures follow the whole masochistic "pleasure is bad" philosophy and the strange superstition that sex is magical. Since gay sex does not allow for procreation, and because it is a minority activity, it must be immoral because it's a misuse of one's special places. And because not many people are doing it (comparatively). People fear the unknown.

That's not an explanation as to why they follow it. Not all religions think that the bible is a word for word commentary from God. Even if children were "indoctrinated" to believe that homosexuality is a sin do you think they are in a state of perpetual childhood without any ability to grow, discover or question? And if humans are capable of this yet they still believe that homosexuality is sin then why do they continue to believe it? Concerning your comment on cultural prejudices, no culture is completely homophobic or completely tolerant of homosexuality. So I don't see how you can think there is this monolithic cultural trend against homosexuality ingrained on the minds of a majority. I don't think your comment about people fearing the unknown is a valid argument either because it is not as if homosexuality is unknown to a homophobic person.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Well you said that the reason people are homophobic are because of this defense mechanism which you additionally states proves that they are just homosexuals in denial or from cultural prejudice apparently from the bible which has only been around for several centuries.

The problem I'm having with you is that you take my examples as suggestions of a singular factor for something, and this is not what I'm doing. I said,

Originally Posted by kookyinc

The cultural prejudices come from nasty things like not understanding people who are different or from prejudiced works like the Bible.

I didn't say it's either denial or the Bible that are the only only only only reasons why anybody anywhere is homophobic. It is a mishmash of the following that can (can, not must) include:

1. Indoctrination by a prejudiced work, with a single example (out of many others) being the Bible.
2. A lack of understanding of others due to a culture of intolerance/innate fear of others. This means that some people don't like other people because differences scare them and a homogenized group where everyone is the same is psychologically safe.
3. It is a form of denial and projection, as someone hates gays because he or she may unconsciously be gay, but does not consider this to be acceptable for one reason or another.

Again, these are not the only factors, not all must be present, and multiple can be present in different people. I'm sorry it's not a formulaic rule, but please, try to understand, this is a fluid issue that can not be addressed with a rigid set of factors X, Y, and Z needing to always be present exactly as I state them.

If you can't understand that last paragraph, I promise that I will abandon all hope and cease talking to you on this thread because obviously it means you're as dense as a black hole.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

That's not an explanation as to why they follow it. Not all religions think that the bible is a word for word commentary from God.

Hence the word, "May."

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Even if children were "indoctrinated" to believe that homosexuality is a sin do you think they are in a state of perpetual childhood without any ability to grow, discover or question?

Actually, yes. It's called dogma. It's called fearing to question one's belief for fear of hellfire (in this example which relates to Christianity). People don't just sit down and question what they believe about the nature of human existence, the meaning of life, and the universe itself just willy-nilly. Why would they if they believe something strongly enough? And why would they if they believe that examining these concepts with a critical eye will lead to eternal damnation? Some just do not want to take this risk, however nonexistent it may be to the outside observer. Take it from an ex-Christian, it took a lot of persuading and suggesting to get me to even consider re-examining my faith.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

And if humans are capable of this yet they still believe that homosexuality is sin then why do they continue to believe it?

Again, because if you are taught from birth that clouds are made of ghosts and if you doubt for even a second that clouds are made of ghosts, the ghosts will tie you to a bed and beat you with reeds for eternity, you won't even dare to doubt whether clouds are ghosts. Some people are taught to never think critically and objectively.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Concerning your comment on cultural prejudices, no culture is completely homophobic or completely tolerant of homosexuality.

Correct, but no intelligent person would say that every person in a culture believes all of the exact same things. It's more of a generalization. For the most part, people think X or Y.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

So I don't see how you can think there is this monolithic cultural trend against homosexuality ingrained on the minds of a majority.

Here it appears you mix the words "majority" and "everyone." Most very strong Christians think that at least homosexuality is a sin when practiced. Not all, most. Many people in the USA are homophobic because the culture in the States generally makes homosexuals and homosexuality the butt of a joke or an insult (an example being, "That's so gay.") Not all, but many.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

I don't think your comment about people fearing the unknown is a valid argument either because it is not as if homosexuality is unknown to a homophobic person.

I'm not talking about an ignorance to whether homosexuality exists, I mean an ignorance to how a homosexual person feels.
I'm a straight male. I do not know how it feels to be romantically attracted to a man. I know some men feel these feelings, but I do not know what they feel like. Thus, it is harder for me to empathize with these feelings compared to if I had to empathize with the feelings of a straight man. Granted, this alone does not make one a homophobe, but when this lack of empathy is combined with a culture that can breed contempt for gays, you can get a solution of homophobia.

Originally Posted by erible

look around us, everywhere we see people just tearing other people down, trying to prove them wrong, insulting them, etc etc.
why are we as society so caught up with doing this?
why can't we waste our time and energy on beneficial things.

Ratings.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

I'm not talking about an ignorance to whether homosexuality exists, I mean an ignorance to how a homosexual person feels.
I'm a straight male. I do not know how it feels to be romantically attracted to a man. I know some men feel these feelings, but I do not know what they feel like. Thus, it is harder for me to empathize with these feelings compared to if I had to empathize with the feelings of a straight man. Granted, this alone does not make one a homophobe, but when this lack of empathy is combined with a culture that can breed contempt for gays, you can get a solution of homophobia.

Yet I'm sure any straight man knows how it feels to be romantically/sexually attracted to a woman. If one asks a gay person, I'm sure the descriptions of their feelings are exactly the same as a straight person, but just for their own gender. Imagine being told that it's "wrong" to love a woman or have sexual feelings for a woman, even though the chemistry of your brain tells you that you do have sexual feelings for a woman. Since sexual attraction is based on brain function, I don't see how it would be that much different to be gay than to be straight other than what "floats your boat."

Although you are correct that a lack of empathy is a big cause of homophobia (which is a really poor root choice, meaning fear of being alike). It's possible to empathize, if you can put yourself in a gay person's shoes by imagining being told that heterosexuality were "wrong" somehow. It's not as if a gay person has the "choice" of altering their brain to make them heterosexual, so we might as well accept them as human beings. (And... if we have someone we can say is "wrong" (homosexuals) the rest of us are more "right", the root of this thread!)

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

Yet I'm sure any straight man knows how it feels to be romantically/sexually attracted to a woman. If one asks a gay person, I'm sure the descriptions of their feelings are exactly the same as a straight person, but just for their own gender. Imagine being told that it's "wrong" to love a woman or have sexual feelings for a woman, even though the chemistry of your brain tells you that you do have sexual feelings for a woman. Since sexual attraction is based on brain function, I don't see how it would be that much different to be gay than to be straight other than what "floats your boat."

Although you are correct that a lack of empathy is a big cause of homophobia (which is a really poor root choice, meaning fear of being alike). It's possible to empathize, if you can put yourself in a gay person's shoes by imagining being told that heterosexuality were "wrong" somehow. It's not as if a gay person has the "choice" of altering their brain to make them heterosexual, so we might as well accept them as human beings. (And... if we have someone we can say is "wrong" (homosexuals) the rest of us are more "right", the root of this thread!)

But are you sure this is how it is? Not to prove anyone wrong and make myself look good ( ) but just recently another guy approached me and made it clear he wanted me to go to his home and have gaysex with him. I noticed he acted like a nervous wreck and he looked as if he didnt take care of his appearance very well. The kind of guy not many women imagine to be their dream prince. He made it clear to me that he wasnt into gay because he thinks men are super sexy. He's into gay because its easier than having to do deal with the opposite sex wich would produce a whole set of difficulties . Hardly anything to do with brain wiring.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

But are you sure this is how it is? Not to prove anyone wrong and make myself look good ( ) but just recently another guy approached me and made it clear he wanted me to go to his home and have gaysex with him. I noticed he acted like a nervous wreck and he looked as if he didnt take care of his appearance very well. The kind of guy not many women imagine to be their dream prince. He made it clear to me that he wasnt into gay because he thinks men are super sexy. He's into gay because its easier than having to do deal with the opposite sex wich would produce a whole set of difficulties . Hardly anything to do with brain wiring.

Well, I know a couple gay people very well who have told me that they were born that way (Hahah, like Lady Gaga says yes?) and it's not a choice. The man who you encountered wasn't really "gay", he was just "screwing around" in a literal sense. He's either lying about being "straight but doesn't want to deal with women" or is just really really really awful with the ladyfolk. That's not what most gay people would tell you. They'd tell you it's absolutely not a choice. Homosexuality is defined as the attraction to the same gender sexually. If he wasn't attracted to men sexually, he wasn't homosexual, as simple as that

I re-read this, and then the title of the thread itself, and laughed out loud. I feel kinda bad, trying to "prove myself right", but I think it's important to help spread ideas. If we didn't try to be "better" than eachother, and we never shared ideas through debate and discussion, we couldn't develop understanding could we?

Still a difference between proving urself right than trying to prove others wrong just for the sake of feeling better. There's always a reason why someone believes something is true and you should respect that wether that person is right or wrong.

On to the gay thing. I guess there's 2 forms of homosexuality. One is the gayness that is expressed in prisons, if u know what i mean. And the other one is just sexual preference. If there are girls out there that think like me i totally understand lesbians.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

He made it clear to me that he wasnt into gay because he thinks men are super sexy. He's into gay because its easier than having to do deal with the opposite sex

so he's not actually attracted to people of the opposite sex.

are we going to classify that as homosexuality?

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

One is the gayness that is expressed in prisons, if u know what i mean.

rape?

is rape honestly considered a part of homosexuality?

Originally Posted by no-Name

so he's not actually attracted to people of the opposite sex.

are we going to classify that as homosexuality?

He is attracted to the opposite sex but he can't find a girl that is willing to fuck with him so he tries it with boys since he doesn't have so much trouble engaging a conversation with another guy, probably because the pressure is not as huge and probably because there are tons of guys out there that are looking for a hole to stick their penis in to satisfy their craving for sex.

Originally Posted by no-Name

rape?

is rape honestly considered a part of homosexuality?

Sex in prisons doesn't restrict to rape. I meant to say that when one is in prison and has no way of hitting his girl at home a man might become desperate for sex and decide to stick his penis in his cellmate so he can finally feel something other than his right hand. The man who rapes in prisons might not actually have a sexual preference of boys but because it is his only option available he chooses to engage in gay sex.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

The problem I'm having with you is that you take my examples as suggestions of a singular factor for something, and this is not what I'm doing. I said,

Now I get to make light of my qualify like you did with your "if and or" comment. I stated apparently because all you have talked about IS the bible. Please go on though and tell me of these other prejudice works that have developed homophobic behavior through the history of man. Or where are these monolithic homogenized cultures of intolerance? Also if it is not asking too much I would like to hear how people can "unconsciously" be homosexual. As if people can be gay without them knowing they actually are gay.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Again, these are not the only factors, not all must be present, and multiple can be present in different people. I'm sorry it's not a formulaic rule, but please, try to understand, this is a fluid issue that can not be addressed with a rigid set of factors X, Y, and Z needing to always be present exactly as I state them.
If you can't understand that last paragraph, I promise that I will abandon all hope and cease talking to you on this thread because obviously it means you're as dense as a black hole.

I understand what you are trying to do but you don't see the basic level that I am trying to get out of you. One of your claims is that prejudice works or cultures create homophobic behavior. You seem to think that they are a given and start from there. This to me is an inadequate starting point. Why are these works created and why do people attach themselves to it? What is at the base of this? That is what I am trying to get your answer about but you are just on the periphery with you sentiments like how religion causes it or something similar to that.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Actually, yes. It's called dogma. It's called fearing to question one's belief for fear of hellfire (in this example which relates to Christianity). People don't just sit down and question what they believe about the nature of human existence, the meaning of life, and the universe itself just willy-nilly. Why would they if they believe something strongly enough? And why would they if they believe that examining these concepts with a critical eye will lead to eternal damnation? Some just do not want to take this risk, however nonexistent it may be to the outside observer. Take it from an ex-Christian, it took a lot of persuading and suggesting to get me to even consider re-examining my faith.

How do you know that people don't question the nature of human existence. That is probably one of the reasons people do get into religion because they think it retains answers about why they are here, what they are suppose to do, how to do it and what comes from doing it. Admittedly humans do think they have the answer until they are confronted with something that contradicts or lessens the value of their answer but with all the "non-Christian" happens of the world evolving in the eyes of Christians, how can they not be led to question?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Again, because if you are taught from birth that clouds are made of ghosts and if you doubt for even a second that clouds are made of ghosts, the ghosts will tie you to a bed and beat you with reeds for eternity, you won't even dare to doubt whether clouds are ghosts. Some people are taught to never think critically and objectively.

I think that would deny people a conscious which sociopaths don't have but being a sociopath doesn't follow to you being a homophobe or vice-versa.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Correct, but no intelligent person would say that every person in a culture believes all of the exact same things. It's more of a generalization. For the most part, people think X or Y.

Then is it really a culture? Or just an abstract to better compartmentize terms? Does a culture even believe one thing unanimously?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Here it appears you mix the words "majority" and "everyone." Most very strong Christians think that at least homosexuality is a sin when practiced. Not all, most. Many people in the USA are homophobic because the culture in the States generally makes homosexuals and homosexuality the butt of a joke or an insult (an example being, "That's so gay.") Not all, but many.

So you think homophobic behavior stems from saying things like "that's gay?" What if homosexual people where to use this phrase?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

I'm not talking about an ignorance to whether homosexuality exists, I mean an ignorance to how a homosexual person feels.
I'm a straight male. I do not know how it feels to be romantically attracted to a man. I know some men feel these feelings, but I do not know what they feel like. Thus, it is harder for me to empathize with these feelings compared to if I had to empathize with the feelings of a straight man. Granted, this alone does not make one a homophobe, but when this lack of empathy is combined with a culture that can breed contempt for gays, you can get a solution of homophobia.

Yes, but homosexuals aren't imbued with some remarkable emotion that heterosexuals don't have. They are human, you are human so it seems practical to say that what a homosexual thinks and feels of love is probably the same as you think and feel love. Of course you can trying to turn it into metaphors by saying love is like 100 chocolates or whatever but both you and a homosexual would elicit the same "love" response.

Anyways, I think this topic has run its course. I will give you the last word since you've been a good sport.

Originally Posted by sloth

You guys are all proving other people wrong and making yourselves look good.

late response is late, but exactly.
I just lurked this thread for a while, watching it blow up and becoming a cycle of defying what the thread is about

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Now I get to make light of my qualify like you did with your "if and or" comment. I stated apparently because all you have talked about IS the bible. Please go on though and tell me of these other prejudice works that have developed homophobic behavior through the history of man.

The Bible and Torah (Leviticus 18:22), The Qu'ran (Sura 26:165-7) (also, note that these 3 faiths comprise about 50% of the Earth), some Buddhists, though not all (3rd of the 5 Precepts), and the Vendidad (a religious book of the now largely defunct Zoroastrian religion of ancient Iran).

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Or where are these monolithic homogenized cultures of intolerance?

I already said, nothing is completely homogenized.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Also if it is not asking too much I would like to hear how people can "unconsciously" be homosexual. As if people can be gay without them knowing they actually are gay.

It's called the unconscious mind, about the only worthwhile contribution of Sigmund Freud. It's called denial. It's called Ted Haggard, Mark Foley, Larry Craig, Eddie Long, George Rekers, and of course, my personal favorite, Roy Ashburn (if you read no other stories, read his, or watch this video).

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

I understand what you are trying to do but you don't see the basic level that I am trying to get out of you. One of your claims is that prejudice works or cultures create homophobic behavior. You seem to think that they are a given and start from there. This to me is an inadequate starting point. Why are these works created and why do people attach themselves to it? What is at the base of this? That is what I am trying to get your answer about but you are just on the periphery with you sentiments like how religion causes it or something similar to that.

People can get started on it because their parents taught them to believe in religion X, and the parent's parents taught them the same thing, and so on. I don't know the first cause, but most people who are religious are the same religion as their parents because they re taught to believe that stuff.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

How do you know that people don't question the nature of human existence. That is probably one of the reasons people do get into religion because they think it retains answers about why they are here, what they are suppose to do, how to do it and what comes from doing it. Admittedly humans do think they have the answer until they are confronted with something that contradicts or lessens the value of their answer but with all the "non-Christian" happens of the world evolving in the eyes of Christians, how can they not be led to question?

Because some people obviously don't question their own beliefs because they are specifically taught not to. A question can be raised, but it is immediately discarded as someone fears hellfire or a similar punishment from a jealous deity. Some people go into religion because they have questions that can't be answered otherwise, but some go into religion because they are taught to believe in faith X and to never question it.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

I think that would deny people a conscious which sociopaths don't have but being a sociopath doesn't follow to you being a homophobe or vice-versa.

Sorry, my metaphor was a bit vague and stupid.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Then is it really a culture? Or just an abstract to better compartmentize terms? Does a culture even believe one thing unanimously?

We can debate semantics (well, I won't participate, so I guess we can't ), but I define "culture" as a set of beliefs held generally held by people in or from a similar geographical region or ancestry. So a culture is not unanimous, but it contains common thoughts and whatnot (at least, that is the definition that I learned).

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

So you think homophobic behavior stems from saying things like "that's gay?" What if homosexual people where to use this phrase?

I think it does not necessarily stem from this type of language, but using words for homosexuality as derogatory terms can reinforce the notion of homophobia.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Yes, but homosexuals aren't imbued with some remarkable emotion that heterosexuals don't have. They are human, you are human so it seems practical to say that what a homosexual thinks and feels of love is probably the same as you think and feel love. Of course you can trying to turn it into metaphors by saying love is like 100 chocolates or whatever but both you and a homosexual would elicit the same "love" response.

I understand that, but it's the, "Wait, you are in love with a guy?!??!!??!//111one" sort of thing. I'm unable to see any innate beauty in the male form that is greater than that of the female form, and this is what I mean by saying straight men not completely understanding homosexual men, no matter how open minded they are.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Anyways, I think this topic has run its course. I will give you the last word since you've been a good sport.

I concur, and thanks. You's a good fellow.
Also, other people, use this discussion as an example for further elaboration on the original topic please? Pretend our chat was a clever way to provide an example of the activities that we should be talking about. Please? Ok, fine, I apologize for being off-topic.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

I'm not talking about an ignorance to whether homosexuality exists, I mean an ignorance to how a homosexual person feels.
I'm a straight male. I do not know how it feels to be romantically attracted to a man. I know some men feel these feelings, but I do not know what they feel like. Thus, it is harder for me to empathize with these feelings compared to if I had to empathize with the feelings of a straight man. Granted, this alone does not make one a homophobe, but when this lack of empathy is combined with a culture that can breed contempt for gays, you can get a solution of homophobia.

This is the reason why I DO have empathy for homosexuals. The fact that I can't imagine feeling those kinds of feelings for another man, and they can, tells me that most likely they are NATURALLY gay, rather than having chosen to be gay. I ask myself, how could someone CHOOSE to feel attracted to someone, or to love someone? I personally don't have that ability.
To test out if you think you do, I want you to decide that you are madly in love with me, and that you want to marry me. This is just for testing purposes, so after about five minutes you don't have to be in love with me anymore.

Originally Posted by erible

late response is late, but exactly.
I just lurked this thread for a while, watching it blow up and becoming a cycle of defying what the thread is about

No.
How are they defying it?

They aren't. They're simply doing what the thread is about.
If we were defying it, we'd all be agreeing with each other.

Maybe you could take this opportunity to look for correlations between the arguments here.
Like "why the people started arguing" and "when did they start resorting to getting angry?" etc.

Originally Posted by tommo

No.
How are they defying it?

They aren't. They're simply doing what the thread is about.
If we were defying it, we'd all be agreeing with each other.

Maybe you could take this opportunity to look for correlations between the arguments here.
Like "why the people started arguing" and "when did they start resorting to getting angry?" etc.

The thread is about not arguing, and just accepting it, and everyone begins arguing is all i meant

NO IT'S NOT! You're WRONG! I'm RIGHT!
I look good now.

Damn sloth... lookin' good.

lol Thanks, man!

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Humans will always have a burning urge to be right and as Foucault says knowledge is power. In an ideal world everyone would be right about everything even if it contradicted reality but this would be a paradox, there is such thing as true and false despite what people want to believe.

I would imagine that this thread is largely a shot at the discussions on R/S. It depends on how you look at it, you could say someone is "tearing apart" someones ideas and another would say it is just a logical discourse. Alot of people on dreamviews are really scared of being contradicted or proved wrong in front of all their friends and that is their problem in my opinion. I love debates but if you notice my posts I never call anyone an idiot or stupid, its not my style.

Like I said many people find confrontation to be threatening, I however find it to be constructive. We grow from confrontation, this is what has sped along evolution, it makes us stronger and better able to face new challenges. Consider the dialectical process: we have the thesis(original idea) opposed to the antithesis(opposing idea) and together they form the synthesis(combination of both ideas).

Anyway I'm done.

When two people are interacting, the one who proves his point of view and proves the other person wrong gets a psychological boost from it. The whole point is to get the person to see the world through his eyes. If he successfully does this, it leaves him( the "winner" of the interaction ) feeling victorious, sometimes even euphoric. It's purely ego and the basis behind all human conflict.

Originally Posted by Majestic

When two people are interacting, the one who proves his point of view and proves the other person wrong gets a psychological boost from it. The whole point is to get the person to see the world through his eyes. If he successfully does this, it leaves him( the "winner" of the interaction ) feeling victorious, sometimes even euphoric. It's purely ego and the basis behind all human conflict.

Hopefully in this situation the "loser" will actually learn something, which makes them a winner! I think your ego is deceiving you into believing there is such thing as a "winner" and a "loser" in a discourse, when actually this is an illusion of duality which causes suffering. Dr. Stormcrow suggests you balance your chakaras and mediate with ancient Chinese healing crystals so that you may see the light. Namaste.

In my opinion, people in general like to prove themselvs right and others wrong becuase it gives us the feelings of advantage.

this

Originally Posted by Majestic

In my opinion, people in general like to prove themselvs right and others wrong becuase it gives us the feelings of advantage.

My my, that sure is a gem of wisdom you just dropped on me.

But I can understand why you believe this, because you always need to be right and just want to prove me wrong! Stop bullying me! (hides in corner)