Thread: Unrest in Iraq, is anyone surprised?

Originally Posted by StonedApe

Wait waht? You still believe in nations and defending them?

Belief has nothing to do with it. It's my country. It's my nature.

It's your indoctrination.

I live here too and feel absolutely nothing like that. I feel the opposite in fact. Nationalism in all it's forms is deplorable.

I'm not a nationalist at all. I simply live here. Honestly I think we went wrong with James Madison and the Federalists but the only other powerful forms of infrastructure are the Mafia, the Gangs, the Terrorists and the Authoritarians. I do not support nor condone any of the behavior of my government that I've witnessed. I find it absolutely appalling. All I'm trying to do is describe Reactionary Bias. You all do it, I'm just admitting it. When one criticizes something you associate with, the obligation becomes to take a defensive stance. A debate has begun and the criticizer must make a legitimate point for the associate to apprehend and respond.

If I'm criticizing my own country, or another American is criticizing the country as a whole (and not just my political side) then I would react differently. But when an outsider criticizes something I associate with, my reaction is to look at them. If they acknowledge the clarification that this is a Western problem it becomes a different situation but if they remain in a teaching attitude I am forced to become skeptical of them. We are designed to respond to example, not explanation.

I still don't get that Poker Face joke…

Don't worry it wasn't funny, he was trying to ridicule you for spelling Iraq with a G.

Thanks bro.

My 100th post!

Yeah, you invaded a country that you don't even know how to spell the name of. Congrats.

It's called auto correct.

When I hear people like you I feel better because I can't believe how great everybody in the Military is. Risking their lives to help other people and to protect the American people. If you think that your comment is going to bring me down you're wrong. I would still give my life for somebody like you.

You would give your life for me? Brainwashing ftw.

It's not brainwashing it's my job. If you were in Iraq (which I doubt you'll ever be) then you would see all the brave men and women who are over there. I hate it how almost everybody (civilians) watches the news on TV and thinks about the soldiers as robots. They think "Oh 4 Soldiers got killed by an IED. Not my problem because Obama is a jerk!" They rarly ever think about what we actually do. I have done many things that Im sorry for but I know that somebody has to do it or the world wouldn't be the same. What if Hitler won WW2 because American forces didn't help?

In fact, since your critizing me click the link or search Marine Reconissance and see what people like me have to do everyday in Afganistan. We are away from our families to protect people like you who go around and critize soldiers on the Internet because they don't have anything better to do. What are you even thinking???
"Oh, this guy is a soldier, let's try and f**k with him and see what happens!"
I don't have time to talk to ungrateful kids on the Internet. You can think what you want, I really don't care...

Here, let me quote to you what we do if you don't want to click the link,

FORECON is fully capable of operating independently behind enemy lines performing unconventional special operations, in support of conventional warfare. Their combined methods of airborne, heliborne and waterborne insertions and extractions are similar to those of the United States special operations forces of USSOCOM (e.g. Navy SEALs, Army Special Forces, United States Army Rangers, or Air Force Combat Controllers).

This is what I do everyday...
United States Marine Corps Force Reconnaissance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you'll excuse me I'll take my leave from this thread. Happy holidays.

I have no doubt you do brave things. And probably some good things.

I just can't have any empathy for someone in your position, because the entire war is a farce.
It's pointless.
Yes, fighting Hitler was good.

Fighting.... actually I don't know who they're fighting now. What potential threat to the world lives in Iraq?

I have nothing against you. I just wouldn't participate in a pointless war myself.

Civilians need to know that individual soldiers are not responsible for their country's foreign policy. These are the guys who would put their lives on the line to protect you in the event of a national emergency, they're on your side.

Soldiers (especially Americans) need to know that they must represent their country with honour and dignity wherever they go, because the rest of the world is watching and has no patience left.

It's a tough, thankless job.

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

It's called auto correct.

When I hear people like you I feel better because I can't believe how great everybody in the Military is. Risking their lives to help other people and to protect the American people. If you think that your comment is going to bring me down you're wrong. I would still give my life for somebody like you.

I'd like for you to answer me something. I hear people in the military or conservatives who support the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq say that the soldiers are "protecting my freedom" or just generally protecting me and other Americans. My question is, how did your actions in Iraq and Afghanistan protect me or my freedom exactly? How am I safer now that you have fought Iraqis and Afghanis in their home countries? How are my freedoms safer, especially knowing that many of my freedoms have been undermined by laws that were justified as necessary for the war on terrorism (patriot act, etc.)?

I'd also like to know why you believe that you were helping Iraqi children. Can you tell me how it is that you were helping them, and still be able to justify the 100,000+ civilian casualties?

I ask these questions honestly in hopes of getting a straight answer, I would really like to know. After reading your last post I must emphasize this and that I am not just trying to "fuck with a soldier". I really do hope you come back and have a personal (as in, not some regurgitated propaganda) well thought out response to my questions.

Some very good questions. Firstly, I don't really support the war myself but it's my job and wether I like or not I have to do it.

To answer your first question you are now safer because the risk of another national attack to America is lowered. For example, Osama is dead. He coordinated tons of attacks, his most famous one is the attack on the Twin Towers.I hope this answered your first question.

For the second. The innocent people that were killed were obviously killed by accident. Imagine this, you are a sargent in charge of a group of 5 guys. You're doing a regular patrol of the market place to make sure everything is in check. Then you hear the rattling sound of an AK47. Your squad takes cover. You have no idea where the attack is coming from. Almost everybody looks the same. They are pulling things from their cloths. Your mind is on edge. You look up to one of the 2 story window. He is in there! You and your squad enter the building looking for any trip wires that may be there. You get to the top and silence the enemy. You look down and see middle flashes from a truck that drives by. You take out the driver. Oh shit! You killed An innocent civilan. The shots came from behind in the house and it was an optical illusion.

You see, there are many ways that soldiers can be tricked. I personally think that having 18 year olds with guns that have only had "basic" training shouldn't go out on patrols. They weren't trained to remain calm when thier life is on the line. There should be more experienced people out there instead but ovbioisly we can't have our beat guys doing patrol missions. I think they should increase the basic training in the Army because they are usually the ones on patrols.

I hope this has made you think or at least changed your viewpoint at least. Happy holidays, have a good time with your family.

What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

(Absolutely nothing).

Why do you think people attack America in the first place? These failed wars have turned millions of Arabs against you (you invaded their country based on lies and killed their family members) and left completely unstable countries in their wake. When the next terrorist attack occurs on American ground: that was your fault.

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

What if Hitler won WW2 because American forces didn't help?

That's the point: in the last two wars, you were the Germans.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Civilians need to know that individual soldiers are not responsible for their country's foreign policy. These are the guys who would put their lives on the line to protect you in the event of a national emergency, they're on your side.

I don't think what is essentially a lack of curiosity and blind faith in your bosses is an excuse. If your country starts launching illegitimate wars, you resign. If you're going to kill civilians, you'd better have an extremely thoroughly considered, rock solid fucking reason before you do.

Okay, I should have expected the "Osama is dead" line. Now, what do you think about the fact that our involvement in Iraq had nothing to do with even the government's story about Al qaeda and we actually destabalized the region, which helped those groups that are hostile to the US?

That's a good point but like I said many times already. Many soldiers do not like what were over there for. It's our job. We follow orders from everyone in charge (Obama). What you need to userstand that the soldiers do not always agree what they are about to do. When I'm asked to go behind enemy lines to gather intel I do it. I may like it but I signed up for it.

Following orders is not an excuse for killing people. The commandant at Belsen was following orders. Taking responsibility for your own actions is a basic moral imperative. If you don't like it then quit.

To be fair, you can't just "quit" the military if your contract isn't up.

Oh of course, continuing to kill people for what you know are illegitimate reasons out of practical/financial considerations is perfectly okay.

Not even worse.

Sorry ethics, I can't stop stuffing Jews into this furnace until I get my paycheck on Friday.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

To be fair, you can't just "quit" the military if your contract isn't up.

What happens if you refuse to go or try to quit?

And how exactly did that help the kids? There seem to be just as many explosions going off in that country as there were before the war. Don't mean to bombard you with questions but as I'm sure you know many people aren't too happy about their money being taken from them and used for warfare.

Originally Posted by Xei

Oh of course, continuing to kill people for what you know are illegitimate reasons out of practical/financial considerations is perfectly okay.

Not even worse.

Sorry ethics, I can't stop stuffing Jews into this furnace until I get my paycheck on Friday.

Originally Posted by GavinGill

What happens if you refuse to go or try to quit?

You go to jail.