Thread: What do you think about abortion?

I acknowledge that keeping the baby brings up a whole new collection of problems, and that adoption is not the greatest solution in the world.

However, personally, religiously, and even rationally, I am and always will be pro-life. Consider this - if some microscopic bacteria was found on another planet, scientists would herald that as the discovery of life on a planet besides Earth. So how is a baby (fetus, whatever word you prefer) not a human being, and how can killing it be justified?

The thing you said on thinking - would a mentally impaired person constitute a human being?

I have nothing again abortion and I think it's a right every woman should have. Everyone should be the master of their body.

Originally Posted by khh

I have nothing again abortion and I think it's a right every woman should have. Everyone should be the master of their body.

Yeah, women's rights, but wouldn't the baby have human rights too?

I don't disagree that by killing a fetus, you are killing a life.

However, I don't see that as a problem. To me, killing an unborn baby is like killing a fly (this sounds harsh--but I don't have time to think of a better way to say it). Death is death, and it's painful regardless... but I don't see killing an unborn baby to be the same as killing a man/woman. Regardless of whether you are for or against abortion, I don't see why everyone shouldn't be able to make the decision for themselves.

Originally Posted by Mzrokks

The thing you said on thinking - would a mentally impaired person constitute a human being?

I believe a mentally impaired person is capable of thinking. Probably not as much as we do but that doesn't deny s/he is incapable of knowing what s/he likes.

Originally Posted by Mzrokks

So how is a baby (fetus, whatever word you prefer) not a human being, and how can killing it be justified?

I never said a fetus isn't a human being. I was talking about a life. A life that if killed people will cry over it. From how I described I would say a plant isn't so much of a life since it is incapable of its own thoughts and no one will moan over the death of a plant. Whereas for an animal it is capable of thoughts and there are people feeling sad for them if they are brutally killed. If we were to put fetus and a plant on par (sorry if that sounds harsh), a fetus being unable to form thoughts doesn't constitute to the idea of "life" I was talking about.

And the last thing any parents would want to hear is their child blaming them for giving birth to them because of the parent's inability to bring up the child properly.

The point I was trying to make is I think abortion is a better option if the parents do not have the ability to look after the baby, both financially and the knowledge to guide them.

the male should have a say so. i mean, if a woman wants to murder my child, i'd appreciate a little mutual respect in the relationship as far as at least thinking my property i.e seed, played some roll in the creation of said murdered baby.

Originally Posted by Carrot

I never said a fetus isn't a human being. I was talking about a life. A life that if killed people will cry over it. From how I described I would say a plant isn't so much of a life since it is incapable of its own thoughts and no one will moan over the death of a plant. Whereas for an animal it is capable of thoughts and there are people feeling sad for them if they are brutally killed. If we were to put fetus and a plant on par (sorry if that sounds harsh), a fetus being unable to form thoughts doesn't constitute to the idea of "life" I was talking about.

You're right on the thing about mentally-impaired people, though I was talking about worst case scenarios.

I still put a fetus on a different shelf as, say, a plant or an animal, because it is basically going to grow into a human, so I don't really dig comparing these kinds of situations. To me, at least, saying a fetus is in the same category as an egg or an acorn etc. doesn't make that much sense.

I'm speaking mostly emotionally here, I apologize if I ramble on a bit

Originally Posted by Carrot

And the last thing any parents would want to hear is their child blaming them for giving birth to them because of the parent's inability to bring up the child properly.

The point I was trying to make is I think abortion is a better option if the parents does not have the ability to look after the baby, both financially and the knowledge to guide them.

Obviously a situation where an abortion is wanted is going to be bad, but I don't think every child from a single parent family/similar situation is automatically etc etc. There's always going to be a margin of error(?)

What I'm trying to say is, it is my opinion that we have no right to decide that death is a better alternative to being born into a difficult situation. Maybe the person would have thought one way or the other, but we're deciding for them here. Of course if we say no abortion, we are also deciding for them but we're also letting them live as opposed to terminating their life.

It makes me very sad.

I think of it as the "If I can't you, then NOBODY will" mentality. Okay, you might not be ready to be a parent. Okay, you're totally irresponsible etc etc. At least the baby would have a shot at a good life if placed for adoption.
But no. I think too many people are turned off by what other people think of them- social taboo's of being pregnant, when they should be thinking about the baby.
And yeah, to me, a fetus is already a baby.

And people who use abortion as birth control completely enrage me.

Originally Posted by greenhavoc

the male should have a say so. i mean, if a woman wants to murder my child, i'd appreciate a little mutual respect in the relationship as far as at least thinking my property i.e seed, played some roll in the creation of said murdered baby.

And the woman would appreciate if the male would understand why she doesn't want the baby, and a mutual decision could be reached.

I have no opinion on the matter as I am a man.

I'm not opposed to abortion. A lot of people agree that abortion is cruel. However, in my opinion, keeping a child you know you can't raise or properly take care of can be just as cruel.

To me, "every life is sacred" has a the effect of placing quantity of life over quality of life. If a woman believes that she can provide a better life for her children in the future than she can in the present, and that having a child now will hinder her ability to give her future children the best that she can, than that is a good reason to have an abortion if she chooses. Not doing so may even be unfair to her future offspring.

I think Douglass Adam's famous puddle analogy relays my opinion on abortion, and consciousness on a deeper level.

". . . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in’an interesting hole I find myself in’fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’ This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for."

So thinking "every life is sacred" is akin to thinking that the hole was created to hold the puddle, or that the brain was created to hold the consciousness.

Originally Posted by Carrot

I shall assume that a fetus does not have the ability to think, even if it has, the thoughts will probably be forgotten the moment it interacts with the world and grows up.

The problem with this argument is that most of us don't remember our thoughts from the first few years of our lives, in addition to our time as a foetus. So where do you draw the line, where is an organism conscious enough for it to count as murder?

Personally I think the mother should have the ultimate choice. It's silly saying that the foetus is an independent life, because its existence relies on the mother. So she should be able to have a free choice about whether she wants to continue its (potential) life or not. However, I also think in cases where the mother will be incapable of giving the child a good life (poor income/intelligence/family structure) the the government should be able to intervene and force abortion (or at least force the child to be given to a better equipped family).

And the Catholic argument that any potential life is sacred is just silly. In my opinion, a couple deciding whether or not to have sex is exactly the same amount of 'potential life' as a fertilised egg is. Any catholic who believes in no contraception due to the 'every sperm is sacred' doctrine; well then logically you should be spending every waking moment trying to conceive, if 'potential life' is that important to you, right?

Originally Posted by dave1701

I have no opinion on the matter as I am a man.

I'm sorry man, but I seriously disagree with this mentality. Yes, it's women who get pregnant, but one half of the world can not be silent on this issue. It would be very unhealthy

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

The problem with this argument is that most of us don't remember our thoughts from the first few years of our lives, in addition to our time as a foetus. So where do you draw the line, where is an organism conscious enough for it to count as murder?

I'm having the assumption if you dabble with your subconscious, you'll be able to remember what happened when you're young. They're not gone, just buried. But I don't believe you'll be able to find thoughts you had as a fetus in your subconscious. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ultimately the baby's fate lies in both parents' hands. Unless the father decides to abandon s/he.

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Personally I think the mother should have the ultimate choice. It's silly saying that the foetus is an independent life, because its existence relies on the mother. So she should be able to have a free choice about whether she wants to continue its (potential) life or not. However, I also think in cases where the mother will be incapable of giving the child a good life (poor income/intelligence/family structure) the the government should be able to intervene and force abortion (or at least force the child to be given to a better equipped family).

Forced abortions WILL NOT SOLVE A THING, and this is not an opinion. Have you heard of the Chinese One Child Policy? :/

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

And the Catholic argument that any potential life is sacred is just silly. In my opinion, a couple deciding whether or not to have sex is exactly the same amount of 'potential life' as a fertilised egg is. Any catholic who believes in no contraception due to the 'every sperm is sacred' doctrine; well then logically you should be spending every waking moment trying to conceive, if 'potential life' is that important to you, right?

I'm Catholic, so I'll add my two cents. The no contraception thing is just the Vatican being the Vatican, we'll get past that and in practice I think we already have.
If it's not done then it's not, if it's done then the sacred human life is there. It's really not that complicated I think.


Greenhavoc: Thanks, I honestly think we needed to see that to continue the discussion better.

Originally Posted by greenhavoc

how's this for a mutual decision:

him: please don't murder our child, at least let me take care it. you don't have to lift a finger.
her: fuck you guy, it's my body. i do what i want!

I said mutual decision, not irresponsible lady. Spoiler for photo?

The mutual decision depends on the relationship. That's another element of the "pro-choice", the choice of the woman to value the input of the father or not. If there is a good relationship, she will. If not, he has no say. To Greenhavocs example, there's no such thing as "you don't have to lift a finger", pregnancy counts as lifting a finger. At least.

Originally Posted by Carrot

I'm having the assumption if you dabble with your subconscious, you'll be able to remember what happened when you're young. They're not gone, just buried. But I don't believe you'll be able to find thoughts you had as a fetus in your subconscious. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Personally I don't know, but it sounds like a reasonable point of view. The problem is, even when neuroscience has reached its peak and we know everything about the brain, it is fairly likely that the question 'when is a foetus conscious' will still only have an ambiguous answer.

I'm pro-choice, although it's a very impersonal idea for me.

EDIT: I remember having a discussion about Hilary Clinton with a lawyer I knew personally last year about this very topic, and my response to him was, "Well, when does it become murder?".

Originally Posted by Mzrokks

Yeah, women's rights, but wouldn't the baby have human rights too?

In a word, no. The fetus is less intelligent than fish. I eat fish.

Originally Posted by greenhavoc

the male should have a say so. i mean, if a woman wants to murder my child, i'd appreciate a little mutual respect in the relationship as far as at least thinking my property i.e seed, played some roll in the creation of said murdered baby.

Why should you be allowed to force a girl to undergo months of pain, sickness and inconvenience? How is that fair?

Originally Posted by khh

In a word, no. The fetus is less intelligent than fish. I eat fish.


Why should you be allowed to force a girl to undergo months of pain, sickness and inconvenience? How is that fair?

9 months of pain < 18 years of support from a loving father. that's how.

Originally Posted by greenhavoc

9 months of pain < 18 years of support from a loving father. that's how.

Then why not find a girl who actually wants a baby`? Why force someone unwilling?