Thread: Transhumanism - Enhanced intelligence and cognitive function

They already invented such a thing. You simply flip through them, and you automatically go through a comprehensive cognitive restructuring process. Then you build up from there by picking up another one of these technological miracles and going through that. You can find hundreds of these miraclemajigs at the local library, it doesn't seem like the general public has caught on though.

What you are describing is pretty much what is currently going on with computers. In fact, you are basically describing the technological singularity in which super smart computers program them self to be smarter and smarter until you hit a point where it is so rapid that no one has any idea what may happen. The only difference is instead of computers you are talking about doing it to our brains.

I think it is pretty much a given. We are not going to want to be left behind by super intelligent robots so obviously people will start upgrading their brains as well. Eventually the line between a computer based life form, and a human one might blur, and we might even become robots our self.

GavinGill, could you send a link or give a name of the thing you described? I don't really believe you..

edit: I just typed cognitive enhancer at youtube and there are multiple hour long videos on the subject. Thanks I didn't think of it. Quite interesting... There even is a brain drugs, it's called Piracetam and there are dozens of reviews on the product, the name for brain drugs seem to be Nootropics, dayum.

Originally Posted by Ginsan

GavinGill, could you send a link or give a name of the thing you described? I don't really believe you..

Books, son, I was talking about books.

Originally Posted by GavinGill

Books, son, I was talking about books.

You've got a strange sense of humor you know that?

Originally Posted by Ginsan

You've got a strange sense of humor you know that?

xD

But seriously though, that's what books are for. You don't pick up a book and skim through it simply for the sake of finding a fact or two - you go through it for the sake of building new neural pathways. You read a book to restructure and reorganize the way you think, the way you process and synthesize information. Even if you don't understand the subject matter, you go through the book regardless to build those neural connections and then go through a related book, then another, and another until you've got a grasp on the subject.

You want to improve your posture? Read a few books on the subject. Want to improve your ability to think strategically? Read a book on strategy. Want to improve your ability to paint? Read a book, foo'. Hell, you can even learn to control your facial muscles in such a way as to alter the way you look (to a degree). That's really all it takes. Almost anything and everything you want to change or improve about yourself, you can do it with a book. Books are the single greatest technological advancement in human history, and fuck anybody who tries to tell you otherwise. The wheel ain't shit.

The one thing that puts humans above every other species of animals, isn't our jive ass opposable thumbs, it's our ability learn in such an effective and efficient manner. So go to the library a read goddamn book. D:<

I'm uncomfortable with a further increasing gap between information and the medium through which it's presented. It's the consequence of our prefrontal-cortexially fixated worldview that we don't consider the importance of that relationship. Information is rendered a virus, critical thinking diminished and eventually the term common sense could be replaced by a facebook app wherein memes are downloaded to your memory without ever having to be viewed your newsfeed.

But regardless of my own comfort level, the technology is proceeding. So I guess my opinion isn't as valuable as I think it is. Shocker.

Originally Posted by Ginsan

So let's assume we have the knowledge of biology and neuroscience and powerful computer technology to somehow enhance our brain function… I think that this is the ultimate example of the power of technology.

So, the ultimate example of what you're talking about is the completely theoretical assumption you made at the beginning?

Unfortunately the realities of computer advancements are nothing like the extremely optimistic predictions, and most people including many scientists (Michio Kaku for example) seem to ignore the realities and deal instead with the predictions made long ago as if they're actually being borne out. As an example, here's a pretty good examination of the current state of "AI" (long - several installments and still being updated, but this is a very straightforward look at the realities ignored across the board by science fiction writers and the science media):

I like Kaku for being a visionary, I remember seeing him on the daily show, but you're absolutely right. The argument he presents mulls over a lot of very real dilemmas. I had a big response posted but each dilemma I address, even as an example, opens up a whole new can of worms, so I gave up having realized that even trying to explain the complications of the technology he envisions is a fucking headache.

Yeah I like him too - he's a good science popularizer, but that's because he presents a very optimistic viewpoint.

I don't like him at all. The dude gives off weird vibes. The way he talks feels so fabricated it's like he is not human. And he just rambles on and on about future technologies. The only reason people listen to him is because he is a theoretical physicist, but the content of is just complete bullcrap. He just uses imagination and some knowledge about current technology to sum up all kinds of possible technologies. Anybody can do that, I thought theoretical physicists were supposed to describe in the universe in an arbitrary and mathematical way. Not spout nonsense about all kinds of future technology.

kak means poop in Dutch and mietje means sissy, Michio Kaku = kakkende mietje = pooping sissy.

I apoligize for the poop and fart humor even though I know you are 10 years older than my dad, it doesn't feel that way because of the internet.

Originally Posted by Ginsan

I don't like him at all. The dude gives off weird vibes. The way he talks feels so fabricated it's like he is not human. And he just rambles on and on about future technologies. The only reason people listen to him is because he is a theoretical physicist, but the content of is just complete bullcrap. He just uses imagination and some knowledge about current technology to sum up all kinds of possible technologies. Anybody can do that, I thought theoretical physicists were supposed to describe in the universe in an arbitrary and mathematical way. Not spout nonsense about all kinds of future technology.

Wait so you don't like him because rather than go over your head with math he - in the two videos I'm assuming you ever seen of him - decides instead to focus on inspiring people with idealism regarding the future during a record breaking level of cynicism in recent history?

Originally Posted by Ginsan

By hooking our brain up to a computer for example but it doesn't matter how, it's about the idea of enhancing our brain function. The enhanced version of a human would have better clarity of mind

But how does a computer equal better clarity of mind? A clear mind has little or nothing to do with what information its processing. People who meditate have a clear mind and meditation is all about non-thinking and non-doing. There is no "enhancement" we need to achieve a clearer mind. We just need to be unlazy and practice using the mind we already have.

better memory, think faster, calculate faster

I understand completely why this is considered a positive thing. But.......its kinda really not. The problem is our culture makes demands to 'calculate faster' on things that are completely useless and inconsistent with our joy.

So all I'm hearing "the capacity to make a worker do the job of ten". Yeah, higher output per second. That sounds stressful as hell. Will slowing down and taking it easy become taboo now? Or worse, the social expectation to process that much more facebook crap. But what if I don't give a damn?

Having such vast information at our fingertips has not made us a happier people. Youtube is one of the most valuable places on the internet to get information about anything these days. And its one of the most hateful places I've ever seen. I dont get it....

And memories. I get it. Computers will allow us to remember things clearly and objectively like a video tape. But our memories aren't objective. They are subjective. Its human nature! Our past isn't an objective thing, our past is what we believe it to be. And because of this, our brains are capable of rewriting the past from a different perspective. Actually its capable of creating new memories on a whim.

Subjective memories seem counter intuitive for a logic based society. Wouldn't it be better if we never forgot all those details and remembered things accurately? Not if you're an emotional being whose emotional needs supersede all else! Sounds neurotic but, its what makes us, us.

more abstractly and more deeply faster about more things, be more creative, philosophize more deeply and more profound, be more intelligent.

These all sound like great things. But I don't understand your fantasy? There is no "computer" out there that is more profound, more philosophical or creative than the human brain. And our brains are squishy biological things!

Were forgetting a lesson from evolution - form and function define each other, you can't separate them. If we ever make a computer that can be as profound as the human brain (function) then its design will look like the human brain (form)!

So if were gonna talk about advancing the human brain in such a way, its most likely going to be through genetics. And computers of the future will mostly likely be squishy mostly liquid things.

Just think about it. It is almost impossible to even imagine what it would be like, just think about it. So now we have created a superbrain, enhanced in every way possible, the new mind is like an upgrade. Like from a Super Nintendo 64 to a supercomputer.

I am optimistic about mankind evolving! But I am not optimistic that it will come about with technology. The internet is such an amazing tool with the capacity to unite the world! So, why doesn't it feel that way?

We first have to become a better people before we can utilize a better technology, that's what I believe. And more, if we make zero effort to become a better people and think we can use technology to force it, then I believe something horrible would happen.

After all, E=MC2 was a revolutionary thing! For Einstein it redefined the way we looked at the world in a profound way! But mankind used this knowledge to make horrific bombs. So, before we use a technology to force an evolution, we should realize that our brains are already capable of so much more.

Originally Posted by juroara

But how does a computer equal better clarity of mind? A clear mind has little or nothing to do with what information its processing. People who meditate have a clear mind and meditation is all about non-thinking and non-doing. There is no "enhancement" we need to achieve a clearer mind. We just need to be unlazy and practice using the mind we already have.

If you just think about computer-interfaces for memory-enhancement, or general information access - it won't give you any clarity or even equanimity. Maybe a not-yet-invented psychoactive substance could be beneficial to a degree, maybe applying some sophisticated electro-magnetic stimulation - but I tend to agree with you here. I guess to achieve this - you need to put in the good old fashioned work - meditation, introspection - not going to go out of fashion, I don't think.
Whatever you want to attach - you will still need to get what is already there ship-shape as a basis.

Originally Posted by juroara

I understand completely why this is considered a positive thing. But.......its kinda really not. The problem is our culture makes demands to 'calculate faster' on things that are completely useless and inconsistent with our joy.

So all I'm hearing "the capacity to make a worker do the job of ten". Yeah, higher output per second. That sounds stressful as hell. Will slowing down and taking it easy become taboo now? Or worse, the social expectation to process that much more facebook crap. But what if I don't give a damn?

Having such vast information at our fingertips has not made us a happier people. Youtube is one of the most valuable places on the internet to get information about anything these days. And its one of the most hateful places I've ever seen. I dont get it....

That's a very relevant concern - also what with unenhanced humans, if the richer part of society amps up their cognitive and mnestic capacities? That puts you right out of competition, if you wanted to accomplish something in respective fields, and you lack access and the means to do it - also if you chose to refrain from it for whatever other reasons. It's going to be a huge factor to further enlarge the gulf between the rich and powerful and the poor and underprivileged. And that on a global scale.

Originally Posted by juroara

And memories. I get it. Computers will allow us to remember things clearly and objectively like a video tape. But our memories aren't objective. They are subjective. Its human nature! Our past isn't an objective thing, our past is what we believe it to be. And because of this, our brains are capable of rewriting the past from a different perspective. Actually its capable of creating new memories on a whim.

Subjective memories seem counter intuitive for a logic based society. Wouldn't it be better if we never forgot all those details and remembered things accurately? Not if you're an emotional being whose emotional needs supersede all else! Sounds neurotic but, its what makes us, us.

Correct, too. I've recently read a very good science-fiction short story on exactly this topic. I'll try to find it again - what it concludes with is that we would substantially change, if we wouldn't construct our past according to what we would like it to have been for "ego-protection". We are inherently biased to remembering stuff in our favour, while it might objectively have happened very, very differently indeed.

It is about a journalist, who is highly sceptical of the technology, but comes to agree, to test it and write about it.
In the process he finds out, how incredibly unjust he's been in his thinking about what had happened between him and his daughter. Not out of his own brain - the story is realistic in acknowledging scientific findings, that memories get over-written with every recall - I forgot, how it worked in the story. He used to remember, that she accused him of being responsible for her sick mother dying, and that she would then have walked away from him in anger to live on her own.
While it was him saying these things to her in actual fact. He chalks down their later re-union to her coming to her senses and his good parenting - he is of the impression to have forgiven her magnanimously - not bringing up her supposed horrible behaviour. While in truth she was in therapy for years, and it was her forgiving him and taking up contact again. The realization that it was the opposite way around brings him to reconsider a lot of other things, and he befriends himself in the end with "perfect memory", bringing about a very unusual degree of honesty with oneself and others.
He ponders, that society and culture will change to a considerable degree - but towards more morality and more justice.
Very good arguments - what we do a lot, really a lot, is lie to ourselves in order to feel better, leading not to becoming a better person, but to self-righteousness and delusions.
What would actually happen, is an open question of course - but it is not said, it would be bad - just very, very different.

Originally Posted by juroara

These all sound like great things. But I don't understand your fantasy? There is no "computer" out there that is more profound, more philosophical or creative than the human brain. And our brains are squishy biological things!

Were forgetting a lesson from evolution - form and function define each other, you can't separate them. If we ever make a computer that can be as profound as the human brain (function) then its design will look like the human brain (form)!

Also a very good point - what lacks in AI research for decades is people taking this seriously and actually studying this squishy thing and trying to imitate it, instead of just throwing more and more processing power at regular computers. But there are attempts which are promising, and some people in informatics take that path these days. This still on the basis of non-wet technology.

Originally Posted by juroara

So if were gonna talk about advancing the human brain in such a way, its most likely going to be through genetics. And computers of the future will mostly likely be squishy mostly liquid things.
I am optimistic about mankind evolving! But I am not optimistic that it will come about with technology.

That would be the most promising way - but we do not understand enough by far - besides the huge ethical problems, gene-manipulation concerning our very minds will have coming with it. Besides using technology - yepp - I am also optimistic that we humans would eventually evolve to a decidedly higher state of consciousness on their own - we are in the process. But it takes ages, literally. I guess, we will overtake nature with our tinkering with genetics.

Originally Posted by juroara

The internet is such an amazing tool with the capacity to unite the world! So, why doesn't it feel that way?

Wait!! I have to disagree emphatically! Have you grown up with the internet? I guess so, otherwise I guess you would acknowledge how wonderful it actually is, and how much it has changed for the better. Enabling access to information you had to crawl through library after library for in the past - scientific cooperation worldwide - also private instantaneous communication with like-minded people. Just consider this forum! I can feel it loud and clearly.
I can still remember very well how it was not to have access, and how it was definitively not preferable at all. grandma.gif
It is and will further be as massive a progress on uncountable levels as the invention of book printing was in my view - in a long line with the origin of language (and maths) itself!
I could go on singing the high song for a long while.

Originally Posted by juroara

We first have to become a better people before we can utilize a better technology, that's what I believe. And more, if we make zero effort to become a better people and think we can use technology to force it, then I believe something horrible would happen.

After all, E=MC2 was a revolutionary thing! For Einstein it redefined the way we looked at the world in a profound way! But mankind used this knowledge to make horrific bombs. So, before we use a technology to force an evolution, we should realize that our brains are already capable of so much more.

Naa - we are getting a better people for example by the internet - it does spread enlightenment all over the world in my eyes. We will have to take it on the fly like we did all through human history and pre-history actually.
What about the stone age - learning to sharpen stones revolutionized human lives - and also resulted in much better weapons to direct against our fellow beings. No matter what - everything even down to sharpening stones has the potential to be used for the good or the bad.
That's indeed us - not our stuff. But halting research and technology in some artificial way - censure and prohibition - will make matters worse - not better. For example in the form of leading to powerful technology being used by people not caring or evading these measures, and thus also evading any sort of control of it's usage.

Extremely interesting topic!
All of it!

Originally Posted by Original Poster

Wait so you don't like him because rather than go over your head with math he - in the two videos I'm assuming you ever seen of him - decides instead to focus on inspiring people with idealism regarding the future during a record breaking level of cynicism in recent history?

I thought about what I said. I realized I made a bad assumption, a negative prejudice. What he does is respectable at the very least. He is a good communicator and for I moment I forgot how I got interested in science. Because it was FUN. It wasn't really about the content but how they were presenting it and coloring it with their souls. I may not be entertained by his stuff, but there are loads of people who are, he is one of the most popular science communicators of our time. So yeah I take it back. Furthermore, I admit that not too long ago I thought he was really cool and spent many hours watching his videos

He is not my favourite science communicator - but he does it well - he didn't deserve your harshness - sweet you are able to rethink your judgements, Ginsan!
By the way - whom I really like in that area is Sir Martin Rees, cosmologist.
It happens to me anyway quite often, that I think - yeah - we had that already, don't repeat - I want mooore!! But I try to reign myself in and think about people, who are not scientists themselves, or have it as a hobby (yet) to gobble up tons of interesting popular science media productions. Or both. And OP is quite right in remarking, how we as humanity really need such people, who are able to spread enthusiasm for knowledge and science.

StephL, if you like science communicators you should really check this out.
Or this, the 3 giants of science communicators of the previous generation
I've got more if you like

Thanks for the videos - I know all these guys already - but not these specific videos!