Thread: Is OBE a form of Lucid Dreaming or not?

Please NO MYSTICAL STUFF in this thread. Thank you.

Hey everyone
I keep reading in topics about people talking about OBE as if it's something entirely different from lucid dreaming, as if you can practice for having OBEs and Lucid Dreams seperately.
From what I thought (I have no clue if I'm right, which is the reason I'm creating this topic) OBE was a lucid dream where you could fly around and see your body lying down there. If so, it's a lucid dream like any other right?

Well, the dilemma lies in this question. When you are out of your body, are you dreaming? Are you in the dreaming plane? If so, then you know you are dreaming and it fits the definition for a lucid dream. But if it is a different plane, where you are not dreaming but actually going to a different plane, then I think it is something different.

I have read some cases where a person was in OBE state and they traveled to a certain place to move an object, this places them in this realm, Earth, not the dreaming realm. So this leaves me a bit baffled, but it is not that important anyway.

Some people are of the opinion that the state of OBE is where you are in a different type of body where it is easy to fly, like you are ghost or something.

OBE is 'mystical' stuff in it's own. Either A) you are on the astral plane, and you are not dreaming, or B) you are in SP and can enter a dream from the OBE.

In an OBE, you don't always fly around and see yourself.

An OBE in my opinion is fake.

Go look in Beyind dreaming. It basically were you can see the future and other crap.

Can anyone describe an OBE?
From what I'm gathering, I was right and an OBE is pretty much a lucid dream...

Originally Posted by vmenge

Can anyone describe an OBE?
From what I'm gathering, I was right and an OBE is pretty much a lucid dream...

Its beyond a dream.

And like i said i believe that its fake.

Originally Posted by dakotahnok

Its beyond a dream.

And like i said i believe that its fake.

Many people have had it, in fact for thousands of years. I personally have had one, my body exited my life body very quickly but I did see glimpse of it, it felt as though my body separated into four pieces, one (the actual one) was lying down in normal position, the other three were right above it and in the posture of getting up, they were sort of transparent (maybe had some colors of the rainbow).

As I exited from my body, I suddenly was tossed in the air.

uhh, second thought, maybe the above does not prove it. But the biggest proof I have heard of was about a guy who performed it and then out of his body, he went and moved an object that was placed for him in front of an audience.

Originally Posted by elucid

Many people have had it, in fact for thousands of years. I personally have had one, my body exited my life body very quickly but I did see glimpse of it, it felt as though my body separated into four pieces, one (the actual one) was lying down in normal position, the other three were right above it and in the posture of getting up, they were sort of transparent (maybe had some colors of the rainbow).

As I exited from my body, I suddenly was tossed in the air.

uhh, second thought, maybe the above does not prove it. But the biggest proof I have heard of was about a guy who performed it and then out of his body, he went and moved an object that was placed for him in front of an audience.

Sounds like a magic trick. Dont ya think?

Originally Posted by dakotahnok

Its beyond a dream.

And like i said i believe that its fake.

And thus, to you it always will be. That's how it works.

-K

Dont worry your not offending anyone . If you believe an OBE is the same as an LD thats fine, its not like I am trying to change your beliefs, you just asked for the differences and they were given.

Well, since I mostly ignore mystical stuff since they can't be proven...

I disagree, it all depends on the subject. Of course, mystical stuff very much seems personal and it is proven in that level. The biggest proof of mystical stuff is the "miracles" that become witnessed such as disappearances of tress, or materializations of stuff out of thin air, etc. I suggest you read the book, "The Holographic Universe", it is very scientific and mystical.

I've had what many describe as a typical OBE: vibrations, floating out and above the body, moving through the wall into next doors house etc. My personal conclusion was that it was the effects of sleep paralysis, which I experienced because I remained conscious while my body shutdown for sleep.

Something to realise is that even if OBE's are just WILD's, people who practice with OBE's still experience stuff. So with that in mind it would be foolish to simply discard anything related to OBE's as useless. Many OBE techniques might actually be really great WILD techniques.

And another thing to realise is your question is a little self defeating. OBE's are pretty 'mystical' by nature so if you want to get a balanced view of peoples opinions it's best not to ban mystical talk from the thread =P

well I can't say I believe in OBEs or not because they seem kinda starnge to me for that to happen but there is also evidence for it to be real. Ive read about a guy who would have an OBE whenever he was being tortured for some reason. One time it happened he was able to see somthing that was happening somewhere else at the same time and when he reported it it turned out to be something that really happened. Some people are said to be able to leave their bodies and retrieve information and then go back to there bodies and that wouldnt be able to be done in a dream. My grandma told me that my grandpa told her about him having an OBE in the middle of a poker game while awake.

Dreams are much less stable than any reports of OBEs.

Ok, I haven't read many of the other replies, but I will tell it to you like this:

An OBE is an "Out of Body Experience." Inherently, there is no difference between OBE and a dream, because an OBE is an "Experience where you perceive life from outside of your physical body." So, even if you are dreaming that you are outside of your body, you are having an out of body experience.

A lucid dream is a dream wherein you know you are dreaming. So an OBE is not a lucid dream unless you know you are dreaming.

But (as far as my own personal opinion) I believe that an OBE is just a dream (not a lucid dream) that gives you the impression of leaving your physical body.

Originally Posted by Waterknight

but there is also evidence for it to be real.

Not at all...

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

But (as far as my own personal opinion) I believe that an OBE is just a dream (not a lucid dream) that gives you the impression of leaving your physical body.

Same here. It's the most plausible and logical explanation.

I have to ask people like Vmenge and Oneironaut how many books they've read on OBE/Astral Projection before drawing the conclusions they have.

If you say 0, I can't take you seriously.

If you say at least one, then you should tell us what book you read and why you disagree with the author.

I've read several. I've also dedicated daily time and effort to exploring the phenomena. My experiences not only match many in the books I've read, they've also matched others' experiences on this board.

Some of us have legitimate reasons for believing what we do, but this is one of those things that CAN'T really be proven. You either experience it and understand, or don't. And disbelief in and of itself is a huge detriment to the exploration of altered states of consciousness.

In the end, though, we can't be deterred from our course. We simply wish others would take some actual time and effort to exploring the phenomena themselves for their own sake. Ultimately, those of us that are having legitimate OBE's (and beyond) don't really care what others think. Our own experience is our evidence.

-K

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

I have to ask people like Vmenge and Oneironaut how many books they've read on OBE/Astral Projection before drawing the conclusions they have.

If you say 0, I can't take you seriously.

First off, that's like saying "If you don't believe in God, and you haven't read the Bible, I can't take you seriously."

I haven't read any actual books on the phenomenon (unless you want to count The Holographic Universe, which touches on the subject), but I've read plenty of texts. (Information doesn't just come from books. I'm sure you know this.) I also do not disbelieve in the possibility of many psychic phenomena. I simply have not been convinced. There is a difference. I've read a lot of Radin's work on PSI, and have been surprised on many of the findings. I've read a lot on the military's remote viewing practices, and have been interested in many of the findings. I've read a lot of David Bohm's work on the Implicate/Explicate Order of the universe and Holomovement - which, so far, I've found to be the most concise, scientific theory on the possibility of PSI. I've had questionable experiences with the phenomenon, myself, but have had nothing that solidly convinces me that the phenomenon is, unequivocally, real.

And I have heard (and read) plenty of stories about people's experiences - some believable, some less than so. In that same vein, I can't take seriously anyone that says such a phenomenon 'can't be proven', because that is a slap in the face to science (which is also detriment to the exploration of altered states of consciousness), itself. Such a phenomenon can be proven, if it is real. The problem is that most people who want the phenomenon to be real are less likely to account for the times when their experiences are inconsistent with - and/or contradictory to - their biases. That is why, in something such as this, I take personal accounts with a grain of salt. There are people who believe that every dream is a trip to the Astral Plane. Their 'experiences' are their own evidence for it. As a very adept dreamer, myself, I find it hard to believe that I'm traveling to some undiscovered dimension in the multiverse, and having a battle to the death against The Shredder, along with the other Ninja Turtles. It takes a little more than an experience of something, to cause me to accept any given concept as reality.

Lastly, I would say your last two sentences sum it up quite nicely:

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Ultimately, those of us that are having legitimate OBE's (and beyond) don't really care what others think. Our own experience is our evidence.

I don't really care what others think about my position on the matter, either. I have had my own "unexplained" experiences. I have spent much of my time researching the metaphysical (most of which was done to counter hard-boiled skeptics), and I have drawn my own conclusions. The over-arching conclusion that I have come to, at this point, is that - while I don't believe it isn't possible - I have yet to have confirmation. And, unlike so many who recount their "legitimate" OBE's, I don't take every 'mystical' experience as confirmation.

Also, I don't mean to discredit science. Without science we'd be cave men still. Our evolution has come a long way because we're becoming awesome at using our brains to unravel everything and figure out how it works.

But I do believe some things just can't be proven... or rather, scientifically proven... because they are in their very nature, nothing more than experiences.

--K

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

If an atheist wanted to intellectually engage a believer on the topic of Christianity, it WOULD be hard to take them seriously unless they've done some sort of research... it wouldn't have to be the Bible, or... fair enough... any books for that matter, but I would expect anyone who wants to say, "this idea us bullshit." wold have reasons to support their claim aside from saying, "well, because it's bullshit."

Agreed. I was just highlighting that their knowledge of God and/or Christianity could be a pretty fair understanding of the concepts, without having read the Bible, itself. But, yes, I also get upset with people who discredit things without, at least, putting some thought/research into it.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Aside from that, I think you've made a fair assessment.

Well, thank you.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

But I do believe some things just can't be proven... or rather, scientifically proven... because they are in their very nature, nothing more than experiences.

I agree with this, to some extent. However, I think many people make the mistake of confusing subjective and objective experience. I believe in OBEs. I've had plenty of them, as I'm sure most of us on this board have. The folly comes when people interchange OBE and Astral Projection. It is why threads like this pop up. OoBE's are, at their core, subjective. You cannot tell someone that they have not had an OBE, because they were the ones who experienced it. However, a claim that someone Astrally Projects is another thing, entirely. That means they are claiming that their consciousness physically left their body, and was able to perceive an actual, absolute plane.

One is a subjective claim. The other doesn't just flirt with objectivity. It assumes it.

So, when people get confused about OBE/AP/LDing, it is largely because of people making the claims that their OBEs are actually APs. Such claims do require proof, if they are to be taken seriously, and (as many of us, who experiment with altered states of consciousness could attest to) experiences, much like appearances, can be misleading.

I believe that, if AP is real, it can be proven. One of the caveats to AP is that people are said to be able to perceive the physical realm, outside of space and time. This is a quantifiable property, if it is true. The right scientific approach could definitely prove it. What is missing is a sound methodology and, perhaps at this time, the tools.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

I have to ask people like Vmenge and Oneironaut how many books they've read on OBE/Astral Projection before drawing the conclusions they have.

If you say 0, I can't take you seriously.

Then don't, but...

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Some of us have legitimate reasons for believing what we do, but this is one of those things that CAN'T really be proven. You either experience it and understand, or don't. And disbelief in and of itself is a huge detriment to the exploration of altered states of consciousness.

...this makes me not take you or OBEs seriously too, sorry
Not to be offensive or anything but really? I haven't read any books, but I've read some stuff online... still, here's my dilemma: On one hand I have a plausible explanation which can be proven, and on the other hand I have a mystical explanation which cannot be proven.
It's not hard to make a choice

In all seriousness, I didn't make this topic to debate the merits of OBE, I just wanted to find out why I've read some people saying that some methods that people use to obtain OBEs wouldn't work for LDs when from what I had read they where essentially the same thing.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Our own experience is our evidence.

I'm sorry, but this argument really doesn't work. At all.
See, I believe in the pasta god, he comes to me every single day and gives me magically created plates of delightful italian pastries. EVERY. NIGHT. I just can't prove it, but see, it's true! What I experienced is my evidence

edit:
eeh... can a mod close this thread? It's already lived past it's usefulness.

Supernova No that's another misconception that I have noticed on Dreamviews, when one does astral projection(to project ones spirit) that does not mean they can just traverse the astral plane, the astral plane is not considered part of the physical world. If you experience an OBE/AP and see yourself sitting or lying in your room then you are not in the astral plane but that does not mean that you are not projecting your spirit outwards. If one has enough experience with OBE/AP then they are said to be able to visit the astral plane. In other words the astral plane is the spirit plane or spirit world. And thats when we really go into the mystical stuff.

Philosopher8659, interesting I have also heard of similar experiences but if I had been in your situation I would probably looked for a date and time. Even then I would probably still continue to OBE just for the heck of it.

Originally Posted by linz2d

Supernova No that's another misconception that I have noticed on Dreamviews, when one does astral projection(to project ones spirit) that does not mean they can just traverse the astral plane, the astral plane is not considered part of the physical world. If you experience an OBE/AP and see yourself sitting or lying in your room then you are not in the astral plane but that does not mean that you are not projecting your spirit outwards. If one has enough experience with OBE/AP then they are said to be able to visit the astral plane. In other words the astral plane is the spirit plane or spirit world. And thats when we really go into the mystical stuff.

Again, you are trying to blur the lines between a mental OOBE and a physical "separation of consciousness from the physical body."

When you are implying that the "spirit is projected from the body," you are implying an actual separation of your focal point to a point outside the body. Whether you are talking about traversing to the astral plane, or just sitting there and hovering around your own body, makes no difference. If one is dreaming that they are looking down at their body, this does not mean their "spirit" has been "projected" outside of their body. It means their mind is creating the illusion of being outside their body. (And I'm speaking in absolutes, only because I am going by the scientific consensus.) To imply that envisioning yourself outside of your body means that your spirit/consciousness/essence has actually separated from your body (meaning that what you see, in this state, is the actual, physical realm, and not a dream) is, in itself, mystical.

You cannot speak of a spirit as not mystical, and a spirit realm as mystical, without making some sort of comprehensive distinction between the two. If you are implying that your "spirit" is being projected to any place other than your own head, during an "astral projection" you are employing mysticism.

Things that have a connection to spirituality and is also unseen or not perceived in real life is considered mystical.
Astral projection is an OBE, but an OBE is not always astral projection.
An astral projection has a connection to spirituality and is also unseen or not perceived in real life, therefore it's mystical.
So, an OBE is not always mystical, right? It could also be a dream or just a mental 'feeling' that you aren't in your body anymore.

I have been a skeptic of astral projection, but as someone said before, experience is evidence, so no harm in trying it.

Originally Posted by vmenge

Then don't, but...



...this makes me not take you or OBEs seriously too, sorry
Not to be offensive or anything but really? I haven't read any books, but I've read some stuff online... still, here's my dilemma: On one hand I have a plausible explanation which can be proven, and on the other hand I have a mystical explanation which cannot be proven.
It's not hard to make a choice

In all seriousness, I didn't make this topic to debate the merits of OBE, I just wanted to find out why I've read some people saying that some methods that people use to obtain OBEs wouldn't work for LDs when from what I had read they where essentially the same thing.



I'm sorry, but this argument really doesn't work. At all.
See, I believe in the pasta god, he comes to me every single day and gives me magically created plates of delightful italian pastries. EVERY. NIGHT. I just can't prove it, but see, it's true! What I experienced is my evidence

edit:
eeh... can a mod close this thread? It's already lived past it's usefulness.

i dont really see your problem with ket here. i mean its not like you can prove your dreams to anyone is it? yet...

First off, that's like saying "If you don't believe in God, and you haven't read the Bible, I can't take you seriously."

If an atheist wanted to intellectually engage a believer on the topic of Christianity, it WOULD be hard to take them seriously unless they've done some sort of research... it wouldn't have to be the Bible, or... fair enough... any books for that matter, but I would expect anyone who wants to say, "this idea us bullshit." wold have reasons to support their claim aside from saying, "well, because it's bullshit."

Aside from that, I think you've made a fair assessment. I don't mean to discredit intellectuals on this board who have drawn conclusions counter to my own. I expect that to happen because it seems we live in a VERY subjective universe. I've just seen enough people (both believers and non-believers), discredit... a lot of things, simply because they feel like it CAN'T make any sense.

-K