An exciting revelation, A place of purest thought

[Suscitatsio]

I was reading Plato's "Phaedo" when, about a third of the way through, I was struck with a very exciting realization. This is the part of the book that I read that made me come upon it: "Well, but there is another thing, Simmias: Is there or is there not an absolute justice? Assuredly there is. And an absolute beauty and absolute good? Of course. But did you ever behold any of them with your eyes? Certainly not. Or did you ever reach them with any other bodily sense? (and I speak not of these alone, but of absolute greatness, and health, and strength, and of the essence or true nature of everything). Has the reality of them ever been perceived by you through the bodily organs? or rather, is not the nearest approach to the knowledge of their several natures made by him who so orders his intellectual vision as to have the most exact conception of the essence of that which he considers? Certainly. And he attains to the knowledge of them in their highest purity who goes to each of them with the mind alone, not allowing when in the act of thought the intrusion or introduction of sight or any other sense in the company of reason, but with the very light of the mind in her clearness penetrates into the very fight of truth in each; he has got rid, as far as he can, of eyes and ears and of the whole body, which he conceives of only as a disturbing element, hindering the soul from the acquisition of knowledge when in company with her-is not this the sort of man who, if ever man did, is likely to attain the knowledge of existence?" Now this entire point made by Socrates was based upon the assumption that thought stemmed from an immaterial soul, able to continue on existing after the body perished. Accepting this, Socrates concluded that the place where one was able to solve problems and fully comprehend the abstract the easiest was death, for it was precisely in death that there was no external stimuli (which stems from the now deceased body) to distract one from applying all of their attention to thought and comprehension (their ability to think continuing to exist in the now freed soul). Regardless of one's opinions about the existence of an immaterial soul, it can be accepted that being able to comprehend the abstract and solve a problem in absolute clarity in death does little to improve our lives right now, in life. So I looked for another state of existence in which external stimuli is the most limited and the brain is the most free to think and solve a problem in absolute clarity. Such a state was obvious to me: REM sleep, where the body undergoes sleep paralysis and almost all external stimuli is shut off. And it just so happens that REM sleep is also where a large amount of brain activity (dreaming) occurs. Now if there was a way to harness that seemingly unconscious, wild and random state of mind, then one could be in a position of clarity of thought and be able to focus all of their attention on a single problem, therefore solving it much easier and quicker. It just so happens that there exists a tool to unlock the potential of the state of consciousness that exists in dreams. That tool is known as lucid dreaming, wherein one becomes consciously aware in the otherwise unconscious state of dreams. Following Socrates's reasoning, with a bit of modern reasoning applied to it, it would seem that through lucid dreaming, it is possible to solve problems that would normally be nye impossible to solve. As I am certain that I am not the first to have come to such a realization, I would endeavor to pose a question to the dreaming community: has anyone attempted or succeeded in harnessing lucid dreaming in such a way as I have proposed here is possible? If so what were the results? I find the implications of this discovery to be of great worth if perchance it is true, and would love to here from anyone (if any exist at all) who has attempted such a Nobel intellectual feat. As it is a fact that in history, dreams have contributed to grand discoveries (such as how Dmitri's Periodic Table of the elements came to him in a dream) it would be an exciting prospect indeed if one were able to harness this kind of creative, problem solving potential.

[Hukif]

There was a psychology student, who got an account here on DV, that did an experiment on that. I don't remember his username though, so you might have to use the search function <.<

[Suscitatsio]

That sounds like a very interesting study, but search as I might, I cannot seem to find it...

[RXC573]

In EWoLD, Laberge talks about creative problem solving using lucid dreams. I think it's a great idea

[StonedApe]

I've thought about this before, but I've rarely been consistent with my LDing in the past. I'm getting much better now, might try to do something like this soon.

[insideout]

I have only recently gotten better at inducing lucid dreams. My next goals is to gain better dream control and explore the dream universe for potential insights and solutions. The other day I had my first attempt to do something like that. You can read my experience in my dream journal, if you want to, in this entry, in which I ask the dream about my personal inhibitions.

[Suscitatsio]

In EWoLD, Laberge talks about creative problem solving using lucid dreams. I think it's a great idea I've read Laberge's Lucid Dreaming before, which mentioned problem solving as a potential benefit of lucid dreaming, but not until I read Plato did I fully comprehend just how powerful lucid dreaming could be if harnessed properly. I am not quite talking about casually asking questions or running scenarios in a lucid dream, but more so focusing all of ones attention on solving a single problem or comprehending a single abstract idea in such a way that that is all that exists for you in that moment. Total mental clarity. I've thought about this before, but I've rarely been consistent with my LDing in the past. I'm getting much better now, might try to do something like this soon. Do try! I will myself as well. I have only recently gotten better at inducing lucid dreams. My next goals is to gain better dream control and explore the dream universe for potential insights and solutions. The other day I had my first attempt to do something like that. You can read my experience in my dream journal, if you want to, in this entry, in which I ask the dream about my personal inhibitions. I figure that to achieve what I am talking about here, one would need quite a high level of dream control. So good luck! An interesting dream to be sure, filled with some very abstract symbolism (as is commonly the way of dreams).

[StonedApe]

Do try! I will myself as well. I;m working on some simple dream control things right now and also on a personal issue, but I haven't had a dream with the right setting yet(for the personal bit). What kinds of problems were you thinking about, philosophical problems or more practical issues?

[Suscitatsio]

I;m working on some simple dream control things right now and also on a personal issue, but I haven't had a dream with the right setting yet(for the personal bit). The right setting? Then I suppose you'll have to try to create it. My problem right now is that I never seem to stay in my lucid dreams long enough to do much of anything... Although I have no trouble manipulating it for the few minutes I hold onto it. What kinds of problems were you thinking about, philosophical problems or more practical issues? Well both. I was leaning more towards the more grandiose problems. Like comprehending such things as Socrates mentions such as the essence or true nature of everything, or the nature of existence. And also solving some of the mysteries of modern science such as, what is the biological basis of consciousness, why do humans have so few genes, how does the earth's interior work, how are memories stored and retrieved and to what extent and how quickly will humanity have to change its lifestyle in order to avoid extinction.

[StonedApe]

The right setting? Then I suppose you'll have to try to create it. My problem right now is that I never seem to stay in my lucid dreams long enough to do much of anything... Although I have no trouble manipulating it for the few minutes I hold onto it. You should try L-DEILD, I'll send you a link to the MILD class notes, I don't think Percy would mind. It's a way to enter another dream from a previous lucid, fairly simple. I've been using it to have 45 minute long lucid chains, but my minds been to scattered to focus on a single task. I honestly don't have much control, I don't know why it seems like I used to have more, but I'm coming off a long dry spell. I;m planning on creating the setting tonight, for some reason I've just been exploring and doing simple tasks in all my LDs lately, not thinking too clearly just having fun, but nothing wrong with that. Well both. I was leaning more towards the more grandiose problems. Like comprehending such things as Socrates mentions such as the essence or true nature of everything, or the nature of existence. And also solving some of the mysteries of modern science such as, what is the biological basis of consciousness, why do humans have so few genes, how does the earth's interior work, how are memories stored and retrieved and to what extent and how quickly will humanity have to change its lifestyle in order to avoid extinction. That's what I figured. I want to look into these but I feel like I need to develop more dream control first, I'm a bit rusty, had about a year where I didn't LD much(a few spurts, but I never did anything, forgot how to do simple things even) but I'm hitting it hard now. I wanna try to solve this personal problem first, then maybe from their look into some deeper questions, I'll definitely post any results I have but it might be a few weeks, maybe even a month.

[Suscitatsio]

You should try L-DEILD Ah I am familiar with the DEILD technique, although I have yet to try it. I will make it a habit now, thank you. I;m planning on creating the setting tonight, for some reason I've just been exploring and doing simple tasks in all my LDs lately, not thinking too clearly just having fun, but nothing wrong with that. No certainly nothing wrong with that at all. Lucid dreams are exhilarating and a lot of fun to mess around in. I'm a bit rusty, had about a year where I didn't LD much(a few spurts, but I never did anything, forgot how to do simple things even) but I'm hitting it hard now. I wanna try to solve this personal problem first, then maybe from their look into some deeper questions, I'll definitely post any results I have but it might be a few weeks, maybe even a month. Good I look forward to seeing what you accomplish.

[Baron Samedi]

Great idea. I am going to practice drawing and painting in a lucid dream. I think it would be great to try and do math in a lucid dream.

[Suscitatsio]

Great idea. I am going to practice drawing and painting in a lucid dream. I think it would be great to try and do math in a lucid dream. Yes it does sound quite exciting indeed. You would think that it would be much easier to solve a math problem in a lucid dream, as you would be able to focus all of your attention on it, free of distraction of any kind. And being how it is the nature of dreams to be a place of manifested imagination, flowing from thoughts (unconscious or otherwise), one could easily picture a mathematical problem coming to life in front of you. And your consciousness being able to expand free of the limitations that come with waking existence, you could very well comprehend the entire problem much more vividly and completely, indeed much more so than would ever be possible while awake, and the problem could then be made to, as I said before, come alive and could be freely manipulated on a whim. It would be an amazing experience, and such a one as I have been wondering is possible and has been attempted. Likewise would painting be made to become an enthralling experience to rival even the most trance-like artistic experience in the waking world. I have had a plan for quite some time to make my avatar symbol into a necklace, or medallion. But, as the symbol came from the dream world I should like to make the necklace first there to play with the sizing and what materials to use... And just how the mountains should be carved... Dreams are very useful.

[riverboy]

I know of one person who used a similar technique to have "pure thought" - Albert Einstein. Admittedly he didn't lucid dream but he supposedly used semi-sleeping states to ponder his theories. I think the reason for this working was that the brain is more flooded with blood and oxygen so activity increases. I'd be interested to see if having a lucid dream can enhance this effect due to SP, but I'm not quite adept enough at it yet. I'll definitely keep an eye on this thread to check on any potential Einsteins out there! Good luck!

[Suscitatsio]

Einstein! Well it is heartening then to know that my idea would appear to be on the right track. Though as I concluded it from Plato's work I suppose I couldn't be too far off. And I really did not change his reasoning much at all, as sleep is well known to be the half-brother of death. What you describe of Einstein sounds much like the "dream-like reverie" that some famous poets pursued for it's enhanced creative abilities. If a semi-sleep consciousness worked such wonders for great men of the past, and uncontrolled dreams brought many great, carrier-defining ideas to yet other great men, the potential of a fully controlled lucid dream is exciting indeed.

[StonedApe]

Yeah also Tesla, but I've heard both that he did lucid dream and that he didn't, not sure really.

[Wristblade56]

hmm... looks interesting, and sort of makes sense, although i'd only do it if there was a REALLY BIG problem, as i rarely have a lucid dream and prefer to spend those i do have on fun, such as hanging out with videogame characters, playing with my superhuman powers, and killing the occasional DC. but gimme a shout when you try it, cause i wanna see if it works.

[Suscitatsio]

Yeah also Tesla, but I've heard both that he did lucid dream and that he didn't, not sure really. I have no doubt now that such states have bellows many great men of history assemble their great works into being. hmm... looks interesting, and sort of makes sense, although i'd only do it if there was a REALLY BIG problem, as i rarely have a lucid dream and prefer to spend those i do have on fun, such as hanging out with videogame characters, playing with my superhuman powers, and killing the occasional DC. but gimme a shout when you try it, cause i wanna see if it works. Out should be helpful to problems big and small, though I hear you, it is a lot of fun to use lucid dreams for fantasy wish fulfillment. I myself would love to enter into my favorite high fantasy book series, the Wheel of Time. I'll post any successes out attempts on this thread.

[reckoner]

I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Plato says that only in death you (the "soul") are detached from your body, so there are no external stimuli distracting you. The problem is to get into such a state without dying, and your solution to this is to have a lucid dream. What I think is necessary (but you didn't explicitly mention it, which is why I'm not sure I got you right) is that in the LD itself, you have to get rid of your senses. Kind of like on of the LD goals I listed for myself, "Be in an infinite, complete vacuum". This is because in an LD your brain is still processing visual, auditory ect. data (otherwise, you wouldn't see or hear anything in your dreams) so it's still distracted. So the goal would simply be to not percieve anything via any of your senses, but still be conscious and thinking. I don't think that it would be necessary to dream in order to achieve such a thing (if possible), but it would probably be much harder. Also, could it be that's what meditation/Nirwana (spelling?) is all about?

[Suscitatsio]

I will attempt to clear up some of your misconceptions reckoner. In Phaeto, Socrates says that only the philosophers will achieve the state which I have quoted him describing in the first post on this thread. The rest of men, he says, will wander the earth in torment as lost souls, or be put back onto the earth as a dog, or wolf, or bee, or man, or whatever is befitting for them to go back as according to how they lived as men. Only the true philosopher, he says, will be able to turn away from things of the earth and, in pursuit of purest knowledge, come to the place of the gods. So basically Plato is saying that death can hold distractions (the distractions of longing for earthly things in its case), that can only be overcome by true philosophers and seekers of knowledge. In the same way you have so rightly seen that lucid dreams can hold distractions as well! And so what I have purposed here would require a great deal of dream control and concentration. Such a thing as I have purposed could only work within sleep paralysis, for this is the the state with the least amount of external information being processed by the brain. Sit around and meditate for long enough and surely it would be possible for you to do what I am saying, for you will most probably have entered into sleep paralysis. As for Nirvana, I have a feeling that that is something decidedly different, due to it being about spirituality and the abolition of suffering. Did I manage to clear things up for you?