Thread: Ok something that's been needing an answer

I think the question is, if you have no recall, how will you remember you were lucid in the morning?

You might be lucid a hundred times in one night, but if you have shitty recall, it'll be worthless.

Yeah mosh is right, although you may be right about lucid dreams leaving a bigger memory imprint (not sure what word to put) because you are more aware.
Recall is a must though.

Recall is a must yeah but if your consciously aware, then your bound to remember it. I think recall is more important for obtaining The lucid state opposed to remembering the lucid state. I feel like its a big misconception.

Originally Posted by NickCamp

Recall is a must yeah but if your consciously aware, then your bound to remember it. I think recall is more important for obtaining The lucid state opposed to remembering the lucid state. I feel like its a big misconception.

Good point. I suppose it doesn't hurt to have good recall at any rate.

I agree with NickCamp in a way.. there were times when my recall was practically 0..
And times after , when i started to get lucid dreams, I would remember them.
I doubt that someone, who is conscious in his dream, would forget about it upon waking.
Isn't being unconscious what keeps us from remembering our dreams sometimes? too confusing and senseless, our minds just passively observe and react in illogical ways.
just an opinion :p

Originally Posted by Sam1r

I agree with NickCamp in a way.. there were times when my recall was practically 0..
And times after , when i started to get lucid dreams, I would remember them.
I doubt that someone, who is conscious in his dream, would forget about it upon waking.
Isn't being unconscious what keeps us from remembering our dreams sometimes? too confusing and senseless, our minds just passively observe and react in illogical ways.
just an opinion :p

You know what I just thought of?

Maybe most hear about needing dream recall in the beginning of "training" and the reason being is the fact that their lucidity level is low. Being at a low lucid state may be easy enough to forget.

Every blacked out? Or drank too much the night before?

Same principle. You can have a lucid dream and simply not remember it. Doesn't matter regardless, as the joy from lucid dreaming comes from being aware of, well, what you were aware of.

Becoming Lucid has a lot to do with integrating a waking critical awareness into the dream state. By connecting conscious memory with the dream state you are laying a bridge or foundation for lucidity. Also, not every lucid dream ends with waking up. Sometimes you drift back into deep sleep. Other times you lose lucidity at some point during the dream by getting distracted. And still other times you wake up from a lucid dream and assume you will remember it and fall back asleep without writing it down and forget. Really though I think that the most important part of dream recall as it pertains to lucidity is bridging your conscious "critical faculty" with the dream state.

Originally Posted by NickCamp

While people say you need to gain recall before becoming lucid, if your aware how can you not remember if your lucid?

Nick, I think you're asking a very important question here, and it's being overlooked because you used the word "recall," which means something very different to dreamers than you might be asking. Or I could be wrong... Let me take the initiative and rephrase your question, if that's okay (if it's not, feel free to give me shit):

Since the experience of LD'ing is a waking-consciousness experience, shouldn't the memory of any lucid dream be exactly the same as any waking-life event? And, since an LD can be such an important conscious moment, wouldn't it be real hard to forget it? As opposed, of course, to remembering regular dreams, which are usually lost to the ether shortly after waking, unless they too have a major impact on your waking life (i.e, nightmares)...

I think you make an excellent point here, Nick, if that is what you were asking. In fact, over the years I have come to measure the validity of my LD's partially by how easily they were remembered. And if it was not what you were asking, well then, never mind!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Nick, I think you're asking a very important question here, and it's being overlooked because you used the word "recall," which means something very different to dreamers than you might be asking. Or I could be wrong... Let me take the initiative and rephrase your question, if that's okay (if it's not, feel free to give me shit):

Since the experience of LD'ing is a waking-consciousness experience, shouldn't the memory of any lucid dream be exactly the same as any waking-life event? And, since an LD can be such an important conscious moment, wouldn't it be real hard to forget it? As opposed, of course, to remembering regular dreams, which are usually lost to the ether shortly after waking, unless they too have a major impact on your waking life (i.e, nightmares)...

I think you make an excellent point here, Nick, if that is what you were asking. In fact, over the years I have come to measure the validity of my LD's partially by how easily they were remembered. And if it was not what you were asking, well then, never mind!

You hit the nail on the head, sometimes its hard for me to say what I want since I'm using an iphone and I feel rushed lmao

^^ Cool.

Now that it's out there, let's see if the discussion turns toward coming up with an answer for you!

In my opinion this is more a question of degree's of lucidity. I think that their are gradients of lucidity that occur within the dream. The most basic one is that in my dream body I have the thought that 'I am dreaming', but I never really bring my full consciousness into the dream. In another scenario I realize 'I am dreaming' and become semi conscious momentarily, but then two seconds later I get distracted by the floating elephant in the room and think that it's normal. Lucidity is lost. In the next, I truly become lucid for a time, marveling at the consistency of the dream state but eventually, through the dream plot, I lose lucidity along the way. In the most powerful lucid dreams, I become fully aware through a rush of consciousness. These dreams need to be stabilized for me or I will wake myself up. I stabilize the dream and do some exploring. These dreams I usually wake directly up from, although often I can will myself back into a new lucid dream state several times.

I think that in the most powerful lucid dreams, one in which your 'critical faculty' comes online very rapidly and suddenly, these are usually the ones which you wont forget, and will usually awaken directly from, although as time plays out in the dream there are more and more chances for you to get distracted by the dream plot and lose lucidity. I don't think this makes the lesser degrees of lucid dream invalid, they are just not 'as' lucid. In the lowest dreams, the ones in which I say to myself 'I'm dreaming', but immediately engage in some illogical way with the dream plot, I consider these near misses rather than lucid dreams. I was on the verge, but did not cross over.

Still, I think my original point that not all lucid dreams end the same way or register on the same scale is a helpful point here. The chances of forgetting the most vivid or intense lucid dreams are much lower, but they still exist. The experience of waking awareness in the dream state is surrounded by buffers of regular dreaming and deep sleep that can wash away even intense memories. Have you ever woken in the night and got up to use the bathroom and thought of a way to solve a problem, or a new idea, and rather than writing it down just assume 'I'll remember, it's too good not to remember'. Then after some hours of sleep you remember that you had an idea in the night but can't for the life of you recall what it was. This is a similar thing, sleep being the great mind eraser sometimes.

Still, I think that training the brain in dream recall (although I know this conversation has shifted) has as much to do with connecting parts of the brain needed for lucid dreaming as it does to simply 'remembering your experience'.

If any of that makes any sense!

Originally Posted by NickCamp

You know what I just thought of?

Maybe most hear about needing dream recall in the beginning of "training" and the reason being is the fact that their lucidity level is low. Being at a low lucid state may be easy enough to forget.

Yeah, good point ..
I think generally we should have a decent recall, seems to benefit us in many ways
1. we wont forget lucids as people say
2. we become familiarized with our dreams and can pick up dream signs from ones that recur
3. as we pay more attention as well as dedicate time, trying to remember dreams(eg. keeping a dream journal) , we make LDing more of a part of our lives, and the more we pay attention to it, the more its likely to come across in our dreams

Originally Posted by Sam1r

Yeah, good point ..
I think generally we should have a decent recall, seems to benefit us in many ways
1. we wont forget lucids as people say
2. we become familiarized with our dreams and can pick up dream signs from ones that recur
3. as we pay more attention as well as dedicate time, trying to remember dreams(eg. keeping a dream journal) , we make LDing more of a part of our lives, and the more we pay attention to it, the more its likely to come across in our dreams

Not to mention dream signs

Originally Posted by AstralNav

In my opinion this is more a question of degree's of lucidity. I think that their are gradients of lucidity that occur within the dream. The most basic one is that in my dream body I have the thought that 'I am dreaming', but I never really bring my full consciousness into the dream. In another scenario I realize 'I am dreaming' and become semi conscious momentarily, but then two seconds later I get distracted by the floating elephant in the room and think that it's normal. Lucidity is lost. In the next, I truly become lucid for a time, marveling at the consistency of the dream state but eventually, through the dream plot, I lose lucidity along the way. In the most powerful lucid dreams, I become fully aware through a rush of consciousness. These dreams need to be stabilized for me or I will wake myself up. I stabilize the dream and do some exploring. These dreams I usually wake directly up from, although often I can will myself back into a new lucid dream state several times.

I think that in the most powerful lucid dreams, one in which your 'critical faculty' comes online very rapidly and suddenly, these are usually the ones which you wont forget, and will usually awaken directly from, although as time plays out in the dream there are more and more chances for you to get distracted by the dream plot and lose lucidity. I don't think this makes the lesser degrees of lucid dream invalid, they are just not 'as' lucid. In the lowest dreams, the ones in which I say to myself 'I'm dreaming', but immediately engage in some illogical way with the dream plot, I consider these near misses rather than lucid dreams. I was on the verge, but did not cross over.

Still, I think my original point that not all lucid dreams end the same way or register on the same scale is a helpful point here. The chances of forgetting the most vivid or intense lucid dreams are much lower, but they still exist. The experience of waking awareness in the dream state is surrounded by buffers of regular dreaming and deep sleep that can wash away even intense memories. Have you ever woken in the night and got up to use the bathroom and thought of a way to solve a problem, or a new idea, and rather than writing it down just assume 'I'll remember, it's too good not to remember'. Then after some hours of sleep you remember that you had an idea in the night but can't for the life of you recall what it was. This is a similar thing, sleep being the great mind eraser sometimes.

Still, I think that training the brain in dream recall (although I know this conversation has shifted) has as much to do with connecting parts of the brain needed for lucid dreaming as it does to simply 'remembering your experience'.

If any of that makes any sense!

Well yeah, as I had said, in different states of being lucid it could very well being different. In the low levels of lucidity you wouldn't remember what happened. Remembering the dream could in fact increase your odds because you notice that you talk about dreams or think "im dreaming" whilst in a dream thus encouraging yourself further to carry on.

I agree that it depends on the lucidness of the dream.

I had a lucid dream yesterday in which I wasn't very lucid, it was one of those "Oh cool its a dream, now I don't have to worry about the guys that were chasing me" kind of lucid dreams. I lost lucidity very soon after. I didn't remember the lucid dream until later that day.
So having a good recall will help you remember those short lucid dreams that you would otherwise forget, but I do agree that lucid dreams with a very high level of vividness are hard, if not impossible to forget. Especially if they end with you waking up at the end of them.

Dude, check out my dream journal. The second lucid dream I had, I didn't even remember for almost half an hour after waking up. It was only until after I had finished recalling the dream before it that I managed to recall the LD at all.
Think about it! I could have had a whole stinkin' lucid dream and FORGOTTEN ALL ABOUT IT.
That... would have royally sucked.

Originally Posted by Signet

Dude, check out my dream journal. The second lucid dream I had, I didn't even remember for almost half an hour after waking up. It was only until after I had finished recalling the dream before it that I managed to recall the LD at all.
Think about it! I could have had a whole stinkin' lucid dream and FORGOTTEN ALL ABOUT IT.
That... would have royally sucked.

I think that means you weren't as lucid as you might would like to think. The deeper you go into awareness, the harder it would be to forget the expierence.

Hm, I don't know. If a lucid dream, even a very vivid one, is confusing and disorganized enough, I should think it would be much harder to remember. It seems like humans are practically made for remembering things in story form, and if the dream is a series of confusing, disconnected events, rather than a coherent story, it makes sense to me that this would be harder to remember. Thus, training yourself in remembering non-lucid dreams (which are quite often confusing and disorganized and just don't make sense) seems like it would help with remembering less organized lucid dreams.

A lot of my WILD's are very disorganized like that- a bunch of random little things (and by little I mean short in duration) happen in an order than doesn't make sense, and even though I might vividly remember floating through a kaleidoscope with more brilliant colors than I have even seen in waking life, I can't quite piece together whether the bit with the giant spider came before that, or after, or if I forgot something else that happened in between. Just having a bunch of little disconnected pieces makes it harder to remember specifically because there are many little things to remember, and that's one situation where having a habit of trying to think of what you forgot every time you wake up is going to come in handy.

Originally Posted by Midori

Hm, I don't know. If a lucid dream, even a very vivid one, is confusing and disorganized enough, I should think it would be much harder to remember. It seems like humans are practically made for remembering things in story form, and if the dream is a series of confusing, disconnected events, rather than a coherent story, it makes sense to me that this would be harder to remember. Thus, training yourself in remembering non-lucid dreams (which are quite often confusing and disorganized and just don't make sense) seems like it would help with remembering less organized lucid dreams.

A lot of my WILD's are very disorganized like that- a bunch of random little things (and by little I mean short in duration) happen in an order than doesn't make sense, and even though I might vividly remember floating through a kaleidoscope with more brilliant colors than I have even seen in waking life, I can't quite piece together whether the bit with the giant spider came before that, or after, or if I forgot something else that happened in between. Just having a bunch of little disconnected pieces makes it harder to remember specifically because there are many little things to remember, and that's one situation where having a habit of trying to think of what you forgot every time you wake up is going to come in handy.

All true, Midori, but can I add a small thing? Did you notice that you actually remembered those WILD's? And that perhaps, even in their disjointed format they were more memorable than equally disjoined non-Lucids? Also, waking memories can be disjointed as well, and can be difficult to assemble later (imagine remembering a walk through a crowded carnival, or every detail of a wild party). And yes, it's always good to sit quietly after waking and carefully remember everything that just happened in the dreams -- I do it every day.

I think the point that Nick is making here is that lucid dreams ought to be just like waking-life events, because your waking consciousness (and all it's memory processing equipment) is present on a lucid dream. Because of this a LD will tend to be more easily remembered than NLD's. And yes, if it's a dull LD, or hopelessly disjointed, you'll likely remember it as well as you do dull or hopelessly disjointed moments in waking life.

So yes, dream recall is a vital tool of our sleepy trade; that can not be said too many times. But LD recall may be in a different category because it is almost not dream recall at all, but waking-life consciousness recall -- and that, upon waking, should make LD's easier to remember and with practice you can learn to identify the memory as waking, and thus prove to yourself that you were lucid, or discover that you were only dreaming that you were lucid.

I wouldn't assume that LD memory is the same as waking memory. In waking memory your memory formation is informed by sensory stimulus, and your mental/cortical representations are fired back to the sensory processing apparatus for comparison and reinforcement as well as to other brain areas for additional processing, some of which may be inactive or uncommunicative in the sleep/dream state. Certainly lucid dreaming has more similarities to waking memory than regular dreaming, but there are a vast number of significant differences as well.

Originally Posted by AstralNav

In my opinion this is more a question of degree's of lucidity. I think that their are gradients of lucidity that occur within the dream. The most basic one is that in my dream body I have the thought that 'I am dreaming', but I never really bring my full consciousness into the dream. In another scenario I realize 'I am dreaming' and become semi conscious momentarily, but then two seconds later I get distracted by the floating elephant in the room and think that it's normal. Lucidity is lost. In the next, I truly become lucid for a time, marveling at the consistency of the dream state but eventually, through the dream plot, I lose lucidity along the way. In the most powerful lucid dreams, I become fully aware through a rush of consciousness.

This pretty much is the core of the issue. We define LDs as being aware you are dreaming. I can only speak for myself, but I am hoping Sageous will tell us how it is for him, also. That is, after lots of time at this your brain can be lucid in a subtle or low grade way during many parts of your sleep. You can become lucid while asleep, but with no dream going on, at all. I think maybe a dozen times a night or what ever, my brain does the "oh, its just dream nonsense, ignore it" or "don't stress, it is just a dream." Now, if someone is just starting and does not build their recall skills, they may miss out on these small LD moments. While low grade lucid states are less amazing, they are good practice and anyone starting this hobby will want to remeber every time they get lucid. Profound LDs make a bigger impression and can be recalled some with no training. I again can only tell you about myself, but I forget details from LDs all the time. I sometimes have LDs that stretch on through 10 to 30 minutes, with full random crazy dream stuff happening. It does not all stick, despite how ever much training, and me being wildly vivd and lucid during. I can not imagine I could forget so many details in real life, if waking and LD memory worked the same.

Originally Posted by AstralNav

I wouldn't assume that LD memory is the same as waking memory. In waking memory your memory formation is informed by sensory stimulus, and your mental/cortical representations are fired back to the sensory processing apparatus for comparison and reinforcement as well as to other brain areas for additional processing, some of which may be inactive or uncommunicative in the sleep/dream state. Certainly lucid dreaming has more similarities to waking memory than regular dreaming, but there are a vast number of significant differences as well.

All true, AstraNav. And yet, not, because the science leaves out (or has not yet discovered) that extra "bump" that lucidity's waking awareness applies to the machinery of dreaming. For now I can only assume that this bump exists due to my own utterly unprovable anecdotal experience: My lucid dreams are remembered as waking-life moments, while my non-lucids are as difficult to remember as ever.

As Sivason says, I certainly have forgotten large portions of long or discordant lucids, just as I regularly forget large portions of long or discordant waking-life days. All I was trying to say was that, thanks to their waking-awareness component, LD's tend to be remembered more easily, clearly, and like waking-life events than do most non-lucids. Could just be in my case, but I don't think so...

That said, I just read Sivason's post above and he makes an excellent point that I may have overlooked: I have been at this for a very long time, and I humbly admit that I might take a lot for granted, like the years I spent developing dream recall skills until I was sure that I didn't miss a moment. That's not so important to me now as, like Sivason, I've sort of developed a "habit" of constant low-level lucidity and tend to dismiss or ignore the condition, choosing rather to "turn it up" only when I'm in the mood for big, memorable, moments. Sivason's right on both counts: I would never have gotten to this point without deeply practicing dream recall at the beginning, and it is wrong for me to assume that everyone's lucid life is just like mine -- it is important to learn to recall in general before you can assume yourself qualified to discern a "waking" lucid memory from a vivid non-lucid memory. And yes, every mildly lucid moment is worth remembering, and recording, in the beginning. Sorry for the inadvertent snobbery -- sometimes I forget how much I had to do to reach this point (he says with great humility), even the important stuff.

That said, I'll repeat one more time because nothing above changes it: From my experience, lucid dreams, even the lesser and discordant ones, seem to be treated by the brain's memory machinery as waking-life events, and thus should be as easy to remember as waking-life events. Strong lucids, even the discordant ones, will be dumped right into your long-term memory and should feel like any other waking-life memory. So, if you think you had an LD, but you simply can't remember it upon waking, there's an excellent chance that it was not an LD. I know everyone here hates hearing that, but from my experience (and only my experience, so I could be wrong), it's true, and a valuable tool for practicing lucidity... just as dream recall is.

I disagree. Even my best lucid dreams feel more like dream memories. They are always harder to remember than waking memories. Once I review it in my mind and translate it to paper, it becomes a waking memory. If I don't "downlaod" it immediately, I lose it just like any other dream. I guess, like all things, it can be different for different people. I have a remarkably good waking memory, so maybe that has something to do with it. Maybe it makes it easier for me to notice the difference?