Thread: Which technique creates the best dreams?

WILD and WBTB seems to be the only methods that are working reliably for me, i have had only 1 spontaneous DILD, it was nice, but i think some of my WILDs were longer than that and better. I am planning to try DEILD though as well, because seems like i can often keep my eyes closed & stay still after my WILD naps / attempts.

Originally Posted by Checker666

WILD and WBTB seems to be the only methods that are working reliably for me, i have had only 1 spontaneous DILD, it was nice, but i think some of my WILDs were longer than that and better. I am planning to try DEILD though as well, because seems like i can often keep my eyes closed & stay still after my WILD naps / attempts.

According to:
WILD - The Guide To End All Guides - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Trying a DEILD after a WILD is like taking coffee before going to sleep i.e. a very bad idea unless you know what you're doing.

But thanks for your help

It is often told that the WILD gives you the best lucidity experience, in terms of stability and vividness.

And WBTBs as well, and just like you I pondered this question as well and I started to experiment to see what kind of induction did actually produce the so called "best" lucid dreams. And when I tried the DEILD I saw that this was indeed a much more vivid experience and more stable from the start, but then I tried a method of waking up several times and found that my DILDs was by then even more vivid than my previous DEILD experience.

I then looked up some theories of brain chemistry and saw that even though it statistically is reported to be more enjoyable dreams with the WILD inductions than the DILDs, I saw that as a reason to the vividness and stability is only directly giving an answer. The real answer is found when you ask yourself why we get lucid and what's make it vivid in the first place.

And even though there is no 100 % perfect answer or scientific explanation to answer that question, there are still some answers that can work as a starting point.

And after watching this video, with the research based on Hobbes theories we can begin to answer the question:

Lucid Dream Technique - Brain Chemistry - YouTube

You have probably heard of the fact that our logical center of the brain is inactive when we sleep and dream, and because of that we don't realize that we are dreaming while dreaming, no matter how weird the dream turn out to be. And you have perhaps also heard of people getting lucid and waking up almost immediatelly and as the ytry to return to the dream with the DEILD method, there seem to be no way back. Well if you look at these two cases we can sort of make a conclusion

And that is that the amnergic system (the system of the brain that governs critical thinking.) is inactive and probably the reason to why we both don't are critical in our dreams and the reason to why we become critical in our dreams. And by knowing that this system is naturally activated when we wake up or are awake, we can guess that the spontanious lucid dreams are probably because of the fact that these people are really close to awakening and as the aminergic system is slowly increasing it's activity, these people in combination with their reality check instinct and lucid dreaming practise does with the help of the critical thinking spontaniously become lucid.
But since they are are the end of the REM period and close to awakening, it is really hard to stay in the dream and almost impossible to return.

And from this information we can make a hypthesis to why the WBTB and WILD is reported to be more enjoyable lucid dreams than the DILD Inductions, and that would be because when you enter a dream consciously, by keeping the mind awake, the aminergic system stays more active compared to the DILDs where you sleep in between and the system gradually decreases. And the dreams are more vivid because of the cholinergic system (one of the system that can reponsible for dreaming) and by WBTB (waking up and returning to sleep) you deprive the brain of a little REM and with a REM-REBOUND you enter the dream more vividly than before.
Also just because of the fact that the aminergic system is more active, it's easier to be slightly more rational and aware of the dream which probably add a vividness increasing feeling.

But how could my DILDs feel more vivid and enjoyable than my DEILDs at some point? Well simply because the vividness and occurences of the "best" dreams doesn't have to do with the method, but with the aminergic and cholinergic system and the night where I DILDed I had also woke up a couple of times which both increases the aminergic and cholinergic system's activity, and when I compared the DEILD where I only had woke up once, the DILD experience did indeed feel more vivid and real.

Ok I hope that it wasn't too complicated, I did my best to both explain my experiences and the little science that I used to try to explain why.

There are ways to use this information to induce more vivid dreams where critical thinking occurs which will make lucidity very likely.

But's that's a little of topic so I will just post a link to where I explain that: http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/muscle...elp%5D-139685/

So because that it according to me doesn't matter what kind of method you use to induce a lucid drem in relation to how vivid the dream will become, and that it depends on the the systems explained in this post, I choosed the "Other" and I hope that I have specifed enough.

Remember though to not see this as truth or factual information, only a little train-of-thought and genuine inspiration.

Sweet vivid, critical dreams!

Whoops , guess i need to watch better what i type, well what i actually meant is failed attempts when i fall into unconscious sleep instead of successful WILD, not all of my attempts are successful after all(yet).

Incredible post! Thanks you very much MasterMind!

I've heard rumors that WILDs and any variations of WILDs supposedly produce the most vivid and longest lasting Lucid dreams out of all the methods you listed.
I'm not sure why it would produce the most vivd but it's quite obvious why they would be among the longest (The earlier you attain lucidity, the longer the lucid dream.)

I have heard the same as everyone else, but I have had the opposite experience. My WILD's are usually the shortest LD's. Instead of creating a scene, my WILD's usually begin in my bed after I feel SP. This is really tough because I start in a dark room and darkness is usually the bane for LD's. I am working on creating scenes but it tough when I know I can stand up and be in a dream or keep laying there visualizing and risk losing it. My DILD's are generally more stable, vivid, and last longer. DEILD's are nice because I can usually chain 3-8 but each one rarely lasts as long as the original DILD.

Originally Posted by Miguelinileugim

According to:
WILD - The Guide To End All Guides - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Trying a DEILD after a WILD is like taking coffee before going to sleep i.e. a very bad idea unless you know what you're doing.

Just because a tutorial says something, it doesn't make it universal truth. I really don't get why would DEILDing after a WILD be a bad idea. The only downside is, that you may forget your original WILD, if you have more DEILDs after. But I got my best DEILD chains after WILDs.

Originally Posted by Checker666

Whoops, guess i need to watch better what i type, well what i actually meant is failed attempts when i fall into unconscious sleep instead of successful WILD, not all of my attempts are successful after all(yet).

What am I missing? I think you were correct. The best way to DEILD is after any LD.

And to the OP - I think quality of LD depends more on the time of a LD (deep sleep or light sleep, middle or end of REM...) than on induction technique. Wheather it's a DILD or WILD, if you get it when you already starting to wake up, LD may be short because of that. And if end of REM, it may be short as well.

I don't see a difference between DILD and DEILD and WILD, they all seem to prduce the same effect for me as long as I stabilize them right.

I'm with gab on this one. Not saying the information is false but the tutorials on Dreamviews are guidelines, not absolute truths, there's so much stuff that wasn't properly analysed in a scientific point of view.

Besides, a DEILD after a WILD would be exactly like:

a) a DEILD when the subject is waking up in the middle of a REM period;
b) a DEILD when the subject is waking up in the end of a REM period;
c) a WILD when the subject is waking up in the middle or in the end of a REM period.

So you see, it makes no difference, the only relevance is in physical terms (some people are still wandering through their last lucid dream's memories to induce a DEILD, but it's certainly possible if you wish to prolong the experience).

Originally Posted by gab

And to the OP - I think quality of LD depends more on the time of a LD (deep sleep or light sleep, middle or end of REM...) than on induction technique. Wheather it's a DILD or WILD, if you get it when you already starting to wake up, LD may be short because of that. And if end of REM, it may be short as well.

I disagree on this though. In my opinion, WILD are more prone to induce a better LD quality (both in terms of duration and vividness). Duration because you're lucid from the very first moments, and vividness because even though you "fall" asleep, you retain lucidity all the way, and since we know lucidity is not a random state, but more the re-activate of certain parts of the brain (according to this), the fact would be that the variation of lucidity would also be affected by wether your lucid by a DILD or you were already lucid pre-hand before, like you are in a WILD.

Even though I lack evidence (like an EEG test lol), I'd assume that the transition to REM (and in the remaining of the REM stage or until lucidity is mantained) is accompanied by higher brain activity in the regions mentioned in that study. Afterall, most lucid dreamers report small or no problems in lucidity when performing a WILD right? You may say it's because they are aware of the transition, but in dreams, you are also aware, you just don't find the sudden plot changes strange.

PS: the more I think about it, the more strongly I think that WILD necessarily induces better lucid dreams in MOST cases.
PPS: I still agree with Gab that the stage on which the lucid dream is happening is the biggest factor in determining quality. But this makes me wonder how many reliable non-REM reports we've read, if any? Couldn't we increase vividness in non-REM lucid dreams like we do in REM ones? And in the factor time, if you induce a non-REM lucid dream in your first cycle, that would be a huge lucid dream, so that's covered aswell. This discussion is a very good one ^^

Originally Posted by gab

What am I missing?

Well, after an successful WILD i often will want to write it in one of my DJ's, that's that.

Originally Posted by cytotoxicT

I have heard the same as everyone else, but I have had the opposite experience. My WILD's are usually the shortest LD's. Instead of creating a scene, my WILD's usually begin in my bed after I feel SP. This is really tough because I start in a dark room and darkness is usually the bane for LD's. I am working on creating scenes but it tough when I know I can stand up and be in a dream or keep laying there visualizing and risk losing it. My DILD's are generally more stable, vivid, and last longer. DEILD's are nice because I can usually chain 3-8 but each one rarely lasts as long as the original DILD.

Maybe you just don't have enough experiences, I'm surely less experienced that you, but the only WILD I've had was 100% like real life (for 5 seconds anyway) and both of my DILD's were like a mix between a movie and real life, that is, way less vivid (though the last one of them featured a hyper-realistic image of a room my mind made by itself ).

How many WILD's have you experienced? (And why is darkness sooo bad for lucid dreaming?).

Thanks

Um, I have always said that WILD/DILD depend on the way you induce it. Most people induce DILD mid-way in the dream and make it in a hit-or-miss way, which yeah in general drops the quality statistically.

WILD tuts tell you to go for it after a REM period, so people not only get a brand new REM to play with, but also get it at the start of the dream.

To me it is the way DILD/WILD are taught that makes it as such. DILD has always been far better in vividness, quality and duration compared to WILD to me, but then again I RC all day, my RC also stabilizes the dream and allows me to become lucid nearly at the start of a dream, so yeah.

Originally Posted by Hukif

Um, I have always said that WILD/DILD depend on the way you induce it. Most people induce DILD mid-way in the dream and make it in a hit-or-miss way, which yeah in general drops the quality statistically.

So you say the stronger the habit, the sooner the DILD will reach? Seems plausible, but then again, could you elaborate on the "hit-or-miss" way? You're talking about DILD induction techniques (mild/tholey/ada/etc), or that the realization of being in a dream is made in a way that greatly shakes the stability of it?

Don't forget that when you become lucid some brain activity has to change, so it would be relevant to compare your WILDs with DILDs since in one of them you're making your way to the state of lucidity, which once again may vary. I guess that one person with your experience has already a very strong self-awareness, but how about in early times? You still had so much quality in a DILD when compared to a WILD?

The induction techniques. People have this bad habit of adjusting to the technique and not the other way, so a lot of the time will read about them doing something unnatural to their dream enviroment and getting lucid at around the end of the dream, when their mind starts to "wake up" and thus makes it easier to become lucid.

Originally Posted by Hukif

The induction techniques. People have this bad habit of adjusting to the technique and not the other way, so a lot of the time will read about them doing something unnatural to their dream enviroment and getting lucid at around the end of the dream, when their mind starts to "wake up" and thus makes it easier to become lucid.

(This is actually a great piece of advice ^^)

I still think WILD have arguably more quality than DILD. In the way that you say that you can stabilize the dream easily in a DILD right? But if you had made a WILD, you would have a new REM cycle, and it would function exactly as a DILD in terms of recovering from any low degree of vividness. In DILD, you're always dependable on external factors to become lucid, but in WILD, you are already in "lucidity land" from moment zero.

Its more that my RC will auto-stabilize the dream, so in a DILD the moment I become lucid everything becomes clear and gets more quality. In a WILD have to do the extra stabilization effort, which in turns take away some important time I could have used in the initial DILD.

Also, in the way I like to use RCs, either get lucid a minute max after the dream starts, or won't get lucid at all. For me too when doing a WILD have a much lighter sleep and the place where I live being noisy as hell makes it all the worse.

Given that this is a mix of sleeping habits, light/heavy sleeper and enviromental changes, still I don't adhere to WILD or DILD being the absolute best in general.

I think the vividness of the dream isn't really affected by how you get lucid, it's how aware/stable you are while lucid. The more aware you are of your surroundings the more vivid the dream becomes. People who WILD tend to have be more from the very start, and that is the method I use