Thread: Who or what should we blame for the lack of lucidity ?

It would be pretty awesome if our internal clock could help to achieve lucidity, or ( ok ! ) to realize i'm dreaming, like « at 6 am i will be lucid » or « after 1 hour, i will know i am dreaming ». That would be prospective memory, but instead of an object it would be time perception, right ?

But mostly, for me at least, it works to wake me up ..

Originally Posted by VagalTone

It would be pretty awesome if our internal clock could help to achieve lucidity, or ( ok ! ) to realize i'm dreaming, like « at 6 am i will be lucid » or « after 1 hour, i will know i am dreaming ». That would be prospective memory, but instead of an object it would be time perception, right ?

But mostly, for me at least, it works to wake me up ..

Yes it is! prospective memory works for time-based events too(using the internal clock), but does it work when saying "next time I'm dreaming..."? does that correspond to a certain time according to our prospective memory?

The great thing is that you can train your prospective memory, so it becomes more powerful and LDing easier!

We need Zoth to explain. Come on...Zoth!Zoth!Zoth!

Originally Posted by LouaiB

but does it work when saying "next time I'm dreaming..."? does that correspond to a certain time according to our prospective memory?

I was thinking, maybe instead of saying "Next time I dream, I will..." or try to guess the hour at which you dream and say "At 5:00 AM, I will..." we should focus on the physiological changes that are characteristics of dreaming, and say things like "Next time I am in REM sleep, when my body will paralyze and my eyes will move, I will..." Maybe the body will understand this better?

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I was thinking, maybe instead of saying "Next time I dream, I will..." or try to guess the hour at which you dream and say "At 5:00 AM, I will..." we should focus on the physiological changes that are characteristics of dreaming, and say things like "Next time I am in REM sleep, when my body will paralyze and my eyes will move, I will..." Maybe the body will understand this better?

Who knows ? So many things to experiment and try ( and of course, without patience, only for a short period of time )

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I was thinking, maybe instead of saying "Next time I dream, I will..." or try to guess the hour at which you dream and say "At 5:00 AM, I will..." we should focus on the physiological changes that are characteristics of dreaming, and say things like "Next time I am in REM sleep, when my body will paralyze and my eyes will move, I will..." Maybe the body will understand this better?

This is the difference between prospective memory tasks based on time (concept of later) and based on events (concept of "when X happens). As you may realize, the fact that makes PM based on events more effective is the fact that you make use of cues, while on PM based on time, you're all in your own, which is especially problematic since our perception of time is way biased towards our emotional state/attention levels. Regarding lucid dreaming, this because even more relevant: when you sleep, and on the contrary of a WILD - where you retain a bigger similarity of specific neuro-activity with wakefulness - you undergo a series of physiological changes that interfere with brain activity, and thus, your PM. This is why LaBerge emphasizes that "waking up and thinking about your last dream": prospective memory (as a intentional and conscious action), is still more effective after an WBTB. Another aspect that many people don't consider is the fact that WILD still requires prospective memory: you will be distracted continuously during sleep stage's progression (by thoughts, HH, non-rem physiological events, reduction of self-awareness levels - like self-monitoring - etc), and if you got a low prospective memory, chances are you will fall asleep after forgetting you are meant to stay conscious.

Originally Posted by VagalTone

Again, i'm sure everyone can master lucid dreaming induction with current techniques, but i always feel like i (we) am not applying the most direct,intelligible and therefore effortless, path ( fundamentally because we don´t know some mechanisms ? )

Couldn't have said it better: we already know that 90% of all lucid dreaming techniques presented in DV work, and that's because they make extensive use (even if not explicitly) of the same basic mechanisms of memory/self-awareness. But this automatically makes us realize that there must be ways to apply these mechanisms that are more effective than others - it's like saying that all forms of exercise are good for your health, but if you're specifically looking for a healthy heart, you should prioritize cardio over lifting weights. In lucid dreaming, this idea raises even more questions - even if certain mechanism proves out to be fundamental to lucid dream induction (think self-awareness), we still don't know exactly the best way to improve them. Proving that improving memory is good for lucid dreaming still doesn't explain how (and it doesn't mention what type of memory is responsible), and that's what we need to go further.

Originally Posted by VagalTone

WILD seems to me the most intelligibly described "technique", would you agree ? But then, if one's purpose is to have abundant lucid dreams per night, a DILD approach, maybe (D)EILD in the future , seems more feasible. MILD seems a god bet, but until we understand its mechanisms, there is still room for misunderstanding and wasted effort and willpower.

I'd agree indeed: WILD, if done correctly, would be the "best" method for inducing lucid dreams, in the sense that it removes any randomness from the picture (because it's a direct action > reaction). The problem with it is that it doesn't allow you extended periods of lucidity in the sense that DILD does: DILD only requires you to dream, while WILD requires you to perform an action which only provides satisfactory results under certain conditions. (For those wanting to take a glimpse of what mastered DILD is, just read Hukif's DJ). But one thing we may not necessarily agree: WILD/DEILD, even if with a 100% induction success performed several times per night, would still less desirable than a kind of Hukif's DILD, because in the first case, you can't avoid but loose sleep in quantity (which may not necessarily be a problem to some people), but also in quality (sleep fragmentation has it's consequences, especially in long-periods of time). Also, you know as well as me that as people get older, their sleep quality declines, which gives more support for a DILD like approach. But at this point, both methods are feasible, because you do have a good point in your sentence regarding MILD. But what if we solved that puzzle in the meanwhile ?

Are you sure, external aids help to develop prospective memory ?

It may sound it one thing doesn't have any relation to another, but a study shows they do (sadly, I don't got the pdf, I found this study in this blog post.

Spoiler for Abstract:

Time management and memory processes include a variety of common concepts and goals, namely to monitor the time it takes to complete current tasks and remember later to complete intended activities. In the present study, we correlated scales that measure components of time management with those that measure prospective and retrospective memory. As expected, significant correlations indicate that people who report that they manage their time well report successful prospective and retrospective memory. Most importantly, those who engage in setting goals and priorities and have a preference for organization reported better memory than those who do not. Implications for research in time management and prospective memory are discussed.

Originally Posted by VagalTone

also, how much do RCing and critical reflective techniques work by strenghtening prospective intention to become lucid ) ?

Great question. Let me try to answer this with a question: What do Reality-checking, visualization, ADA, auto-suggestion, intention, and any other critical reflective technique have in common?

Spoiler for Answer:

They are all based on Implementation Intention Strategy. "I will reality check. I will become lucid, I will perform ADA, I will observe my surroundings when I dream. I will do a reality check when I find something wrong. I will see myself in a dream. I will become lucid while dreaming. I will be aware".

Studies conducted in 1997 and earlier showed that the use of implementation intentions can result in a higher probability of successful goal attainment, by predetermining a specific and desired goal-directed behavior in response to a particular future event or cue.

Spoiler for What this still doesn't explain:

What happens though when you no longer actively engage in lucid dreaming induction (in case of Sageous/Hukif, etc)? My guess is that previously intentional behavior turns into unconscious regular behavior, aka, an habit. But you'd probably ask: hey zoth, you were the first one to state that many habits don't make into dreams, like your hygiene routine, then why would these "becoming lucid" would? Answer: if actions can become dream signs (taking the bus), why not actions like "questioning yourself regarding your state?"? Something to think about

Also, you know as well as me that as people get older, their sleep quality declines, which gives more support for a DILD like approach. But at this point, both methods are feasible, because you do have a good point in your sentence regarding MILD. But what if we solved that puzzle in the meanwhile ?

Yes, MILD can be as sleep-unfriendly as WILD imo...oh yes, if we solve that puzzle may be it doesn´t have to be anymore. Until that happens, maybe we can achieve DILD mastery

One thing that would be great to start improving MILD, i think, would be to know exactly what cue to search for or be aware of. Then, we would need some self awareness/habit to amplify that cue, and BAAM ! We have many distinctive dream cues, kind of super dreamsigns, like gravity ( Hukif's cue), sense of temperature, feeling of clothes, ambient noise, etc, like Ctharlhie said

Originally Posted by Zoth

if actions can become dream signs (taking the bus), why not actions like "questioning yourself regarding your state?"? Something to think about

You mean RCs become dream signs themselves ?? hehe, that would be a very good dream sign to have But is there an easier way to induce them ?