Thread: High and Low-Level LDs?

Hi,

I was a little confused about this whole notion of high and low-level lucid dreams. A lot of people say that in a high-level lucid, you have a strong sense of self, feeling as awake etc. as you do in reality and the dream itself is completely lifelike or feels even realer than reality. That’s sort of what I’m unsure about -- I mean, self-awareness and dream vividness are completely separate things. I’ve had lucid dreams where I had a strong sense of self, but the dreams were very dim and felt more like a slow virtual reality game than anything else; they certainly did not feel very real. In contrast, I’ve had non-lucids which did feel very real. So I’m not really sure what a high and low-level LD would consist of. It's an interesting idea though; what are your views on it?

Also, on this topic, does your level of self-awareness have any link whatsoever to increasing the quality of a dream? Or is the low quality of some dreams something the lucid dreamer just has to deal with but has no control over?

Thanks.

To me, low level LD = low lucidity/self awareness, blurry visuals and low senses, high level LD = high lucidity/self awareness, very vivid and realistic visuals and senses, simple as that. Yes, it happens sometimes to have LDs with high awareness but low senses or very vivid non-lucid dreams, it's not a law that everything has to be a certain way or anything like that.

I think this means different things for different people. For myself, a "high-level" LD would be one that:

• lasts longer than normal (at least 30-40 minutes)
• has a high-level of vividness and clarity
• provides me the opportunity for better dream control than I am used to
• and is, overall, an amazing, mind-blowing experience

As for your question of visual quality, I don't think so. I think some dreams (especially those in the earlier parts of the night) can lack a certain visual clarity that we get used to on our WBTBs I think that you can be very lucid in a vague, hazy dream (as you mentioned), and very not-lucid in a vivid, crisply-defined dream. I also find that dreams tend to clarify as you continue the dream; a dream might be initially hazy, but then "set" as you engage in dream activities, and become very vivid.

People will always want to name things and place them on a chart, but often it does not fit well.

LDs have at least two factors, as you have mentioned. Self awareness and the quality of our senses. You can be truely self aware and have no visuals at all, and you can be confused, knowing you are dreaming, but not even remembering who you are, while the dream is very vivid.

Just rate each thing seperately if you wish to rate them. Dream control is another factor.

You can learn to have an effect on each of these factors with training. However, if your sleep cycle changes, you may find that the vividness will change no matter what you do. You can learn to steer the sleep cycles into more dream friendly states, but it is hit or miss and often beyond your control.

Thanks for the replies.

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

I think this means different things for different people. For myself, a "high-level" LD would be one that:

• lasts longer than normal (at least 30-40 minutes)
• has a high-level of vividness and clarity
• provides me the opportunity for better dream control than I am used to
• and is, overall, an amazing, mind-blowing experience

As for your question of visual quality, I don't think so. I think some dreams (especially those in the earlier parts of the night) can lack a certain visual clarity that we get used to on our WBTBs I think that you can be very lucid in a vague, hazy dream (as you mentioned), and very not-lucid in a vivid, crisply-defined dream. I also find that dreams tend to clarify as you continue the dream; a dream might be initially hazy, but then "set" as you engage in dream activities, and become very vivid.

I think you might be right 3C. They are very vague definitions, and mostly subjective. So many people talk about how LD’s are as real or even realer than waking life -- they certainly can be, but I don’t think this is always the case. I think then, being highly self-aware in a vivid dream would be more of a coincidence than something that is guaranteed upon lucidity. But, like you said, I have known for self-awareness to give you the ability to build on the vividness of the dream, perhaps because it makes you more ‘present’ in the moment with greater attention.

Originally Posted by sivason

People will always want to name things and place them on a chart, but often it does not fit well.

LDs have at least two factors, as you have mentioned. Self awareness and the quality of our senses. You can be truely self aware and have no visuals at all, and you can be confused, knowing you are dreaming, but not even remembering who you are, while the dream is very vivid.

Just rate each thing seperately if you wish to rate them. Dream control is another factor.

You can learn to have an effect on each of these factors with training. However, if your sleep cycle changes, you may find that the vividness will change no matter what you do. You can learn to steer the sleep cycles into more dream friendly states, but it is hit or miss and often beyond your control.

This does make sense, Sivason. After having so many low-quality LD’s lately (contrary to the view that LD's are as real as waking life), it’s good to know that this is most likely an issue with the dream itself/ timing etc. than anything to do with lucidity, and that they are indeed separate factors.

I don't' believe that lucidity has anything to do with a dream's vividness.

As you already said, Eamo, you can be extremely lucid in the dullest of dreams and not lucid at all in the most vivid of dreams.

High-level lucidity means nothing more (or less) than you have a strong sense of self-awareness and easy access to memory. I have never understood where vividness came into play with lucidity, other than the word "lucid" kind of implies as much. I think that one of the things people notice when lucid is the amazing clarity of their dreams, but they don't stop to consider whether that clarity wasn't just as clear before they took conscious note if it.

Dreams seem "realer than real" because, from a perceptual standpoint, they are. When you perceive images in a dream, you are doing so without any physical filters to distort the imagery, like eyes or ears. In other words, you are getting your imagery deposited into your perception straight from your unconscious/memory, without the imagery having to pass through things like air, dust, light, the lenses of your eyes, or your optic nerves/ all of which have some opportunity to distort the original object being perceived. Also, in waking life your perception also must navigate through the distractions of all the other objects vying for your attention, whereas in a dream you can perceive an object without distraction. What you are perceiving in a dream is essentially perfect, so it will certainly tend to seem more real than real. Again, this "direct" perception has nothing to do with lucidity, and will work the same whether you are lucid or not -- the only difference is that when you are lucid you are able to notice the "realer than real" effect, and when not lucid you don't notice because everything looks just like it's supposed to look, as far as your memory-impaired dreaming self can remember.

I know this all runs counter to what pretty much everyone says around here, but I hope you'll consider it anyway.

Originally Posted by Sageous

High-level lucidity means nothing more (or less) than you have a strong sense of self-awareness and easy access to memory. I have never understood where vividness came into play with lucidity, other than the word "lucid" kind of implies as much. I think that one of the things people notice when lucid is the amazing clarity of their dreams, but they don't stop to consider whether that clarity wasn't just as clear before they took conscious note if it.

Dreams seem "realer than real" because, from a perceptual standpoint, they are. When you perceive images in a dream, you are doing so without any physical filters to distort the imagery, like eyes or ears. In other words, you are getting your imagery deposited into your perception straight from your unconscious/memory, without the imagery having to pass through things like air, dust, light, the lenses of your eyes, or your optic nerves/ all of which have some opportunity to distort the original object being perceived. Also, in waking life your perception also must navigate through the distractions of all the other objects vying for your attention, whereas in a dream you can perceive an object without distraction. What you are perceiving in a dream is essentially perfect, so it will certainly tend to seem more real than real. Again, this "direct" perception has nothing to do with lucidity, and will work the same whether you are lucid or not -- the only difference is that when you are lucid you are able to notice the "realer than real" effect, and when not lucid you don't notice because everything looks just like it's supposed to look, as far as your memory-impaired dreaming self can remember.

Wow, that’s very interesting, Sageous, thanks for explaining! Before, I just thought that the reason dreams could seem so real was because of the power of the subconscious mind -- that it simply has the ability to create a world which is superior to reality. But your explanation completely makes sense -- good to know! I suppose it’s also similar to what LaBerge said once about dreaming being unconstrained by sensory input.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I know this all runs counter to what pretty much everyone says around here, but I hope you'll consider it anyway.

Yes I’ve always thought that the two (self-awareness and vividness) were separate anyway (ever since I read it in one of your posts long ago ). But what I didn’t know was that self-awareness really only makes the dreamer ‘notice’ the perfect clarity of the dream, as you mentioned above -- I thought having strong self-awareness gave the dreamer the ability to enhance the realism of the dream on their own, if for example, the dream did happen to be dull (as well as other things like prolonging, dream control etc.). So the reason high self-awareness does this is really only because of the strengthened appreciation of the dream quality which was there all along? But has no real 'enhancing' power itself?

Perhaps the only question that remains is the one of what causes such fluctuations in the quality of the dream state itself, regardless of levels of lucidity -- but I guess that’s for another thread!

Hey Sageous, that's really cool stuff, dreams being realer than real! I wanted to ask you something, I've always been wondering about music in dreams. Have you ever heard music in dreams that you never heard in real life that was really beautiful and exciting, or even played a musical instrument like a grandmaster? For the last 4 years I have been listening to classical music more and more, right now I know a lot of stuff and have heard of lot of recordings from many legendary musicians and have been moved in ways I didn't know was possible. I am not only curous but also sceptical about people saying that music in dreams is more beautiful than anything they heard in real life.

Here is the famous story of a composer who had a dream like that..

"One night, in the year 1713 I dreamed I had made a pact with the devil for my soul. Everything went as I wished: my new servant anticipated my every desire. Among other things, I gave him my violin to see if he could play. How great was my astonishment on hearing a sonata so wonderful and so beautiful, played with such great art and intelligence, as I had never even conceived in my boldest flights of fantasy. I felt enraptured, transported, enchanted: my breath failed me, and - I awoke. I immediately grasped my violin in order to retain, in part at least, the impression of my dream. In vain! The music which I at this time composed is indeed the best that I ever wrote, and I still call it the "Devil's Trill", but the difference between it and that which so moved me is so great that I would have destroyed my instrument and have said farewell to music forever if it had been possible for me to live without the enjoyment it affords me."

Maybe I should make a thread about this...

I will say that Sageous clearly explains why dreams may APPEAR realer than life.

Now I will say everything that makes it work shows why it is NOT as real as life. Picture a dream in which a flowering tree is taking your attention. The facts that create the effect is meeting its ends by robbing you other aspects f attention. While that tree is in so much focus chances are the grass under your feet is not really there. In fact all things aside from the tree are likely in a blurry mass.

So, some dreams seem more life-like, but it is an illusion created by removing elements that would otherwise be there.





And that can be very cool. Understand it or not.