Thread: WBTB: Fail Or Succsess? / Melatonin

Hello,
I am new to lucid dreaming. I am 18, I have been meditating regularly for the last 3-4 months and keeping a healthy life style ( exercising, and a good diet). The last 13 days I have been trying to lucid dream by doing regular RC and keeping a Dream Journal and also been practicing the WBTB method, or the timer method: Basically I wake up at 5 am after 5-6 hours of sleep, then set an alarm for 6 am then 6:08 then 6:12,6:16,6:20
and so on..
But I have encountered a few problems:
First of all it takes me a long time to fall asleep, it always has been this way, it takes me at least an hour to fall asleep, but usually its an hour and a half, even when I try not to move, and do the Drop Roll Sleep Command. After I wake up at 5 Am if I stay awake for 45 minutes I have extremely hard time getting back to sleep again, and when I fall asleep I cannot wake up again by the alarms, I just simply keep on sleeping and cannot retain any descent level of consciousness. Although I have made some progress I think, My dream recall ability went up to 2-4 dreams per night, and two nights ago I knew I was dreaming, I was dreaming about dreaming, weirdly enough, I could hear noises and feel sensations from the dream, but the dream "sight" wasn't as vivid and clear as real eye sight, and in my dream I got SP and couldn't move, But I was aware that I am probably dreaming but didn't do anything about it. And yesterday I also knew that I was dreaming and I remember thinking to my self, "hmm I am dreaming, this is a pretty good dream, I should write this dream in my Dream Journal", but I didn't do anything about it and kept on sleeping, only later after I woke up I realized that I was dreaming really. Also I cannot enter full SP, but my body becomes heavy and numb.


My questions are:
Will taking Melatonin increase my ability to have lucid dreams and enter SP and fall asleep faster?
Also my Dream memories feel the same as my real life memories that came from my real eyes and real eye sight, except that I know my dream memories came from a dream.
So does that mean when I dream I actually see my dream but I am not concussions enough to see the dream, and it registers in my brain like a normal memory of eye sight from real life?
I would really love to be able to see my dreams and experience them as vividly as my real eye sight is. Basically achieving "perfect visualization".
What am I doing wrong, and can improve?
What can I do to improve my visualization ability?

Welcome to DV!

I'll try to answer the way I know, but you might want to wait for a second opinion of a more experienced lucid dreamer. Great questions, btw!

Originally Posted by TheShaps

First of all it takes me a long time to fall asleep,

Maybe this problem can be at least minimized by using a "smart alarm" (shorter, quieter), or by purposely trying to stay drowsy, or by shortening the out of bed period of WBTB? Things like that are very variable between different people and require a lot of personal experimentation to get right. You also can try to "fake seeing dreams" while trying to fall back asleep - for me it helps, since it distracts me from the effort of falling asleep, and also faking it eventually makes the brain going with the flow and actually dreaming.

and when I fall asleep I cannot wake up again by the alarms, I just simply keep on sleeping and cannot retain any descent level of consciousness.

Yeah, that happens to me too... Not sure how to fight it either, except by practicing awareness and RCs.

My dream recall ability went up to 2-4 dreams per night, and two nights ago I knew I was dreaming, I was dreaming about dreaming

This is a very good progress, and technically a lucid dream (even if short or not that vivid)!
The second time you knew you were dreaming before sounds more like a FA - so basically when ever you suspect you might be dreaming and upon each awakening (true or false) just do your RCs to spot the false ones and this will increase your awareness and dream vividness.

Also I cannot enter full SP, but my body becomes heavy and numb.

Cannot stress this enough - SP is not required to induce lucid dreams (even wake induced). There is one sub-method of WILD (out of like ten sub-methods) that uses it, but it's more useful for OBEs where you need to stay still to "exit" your body [imho, OBEs are just a subtype of LDs in which some sensory information comes from RL, which is why they are so "convincingly mystical", but that's just my opinion]. I'm getting of topic here - I would suggest to ignore SP and even HH completely during all wake induced attempts. If they happen, just let them run in the background and focus on staying aware, and "watch" the pre-dreams if they form (so you'll feel the difference when the real dream starts).

Will taking Melatonin increase my ability to have lucid dreams and enter SP and fall asleep faster?

I'm not a supplement user, so I should leave this question for others to answer. But my take on it is that Melatonin will probably shorten the duration of your total sleep so you'll have to adjust the timing again. It might increase REM rebound, making it easier to get into a dream, but other than that I can't see major benefits for LDs. About its safety - for now studies say it's mostly safe and possibly beneficial, but even water can kill a human in excess amounts and no studies of long term Melatonin supplementation are known to me...

So does that mean when I dream I actually see my dream but I am not concussions enough to see the dream, and it registers in my brain like a normal memory of eye sight from real life? What can I do to improve my visualization ability?

This is definitely at least sometimes the case. However dream vividness is very variable - they can be colorful, black and white, animated, even more vivid then real life. In normal dreams you just have to take what you get, but by being good enough at "lucidity", you'll be able to choose what ever vividness you like. Easy methods to increase vividness in a LD are of course RCs and stabilization - even just by using these you can sometimes get lifelike vividness.

What am I doing wrong, and can improve?

Yes of course you can improve! It's very rare to even get that far in only 13 days, so you must be doing at least most of it right! And don't forget that these things are very individual - so the most important thing is to have the consistency to keep practicing the basics (RCs, recall, awareness), while also experimenting with methods, timing, etc - to find the ones that work for you.

I can give you a personal example. I kinda lost interest in LDing a while back, when it was much easier for me than it is now. Now I'm feeling I'm getting back there, but still have problems like countless FAs, despite trying to RC every awakening. I however know that eventually this habit while leak into my dreams and will solve this problem - it's very important to stay patient and keep a positive approach!

First of all thank you very much for your reply, it's very informative and supporting, and I appreciate it very much

Maybe this problem can be at least minimized by using a "smart alarm" (shorter, quieter), or by purposely trying to stay drowsy, or by shortening the out of bed period of WBTB?

Yes! Definitely, I didn't mention it in the Original Post, but last night I woke up naturally at around 4:36, without the use of an alarm clock, and felt very tired, I got out of bed to drink and use the bathroom, I then was able to fall asleep rather quickly ( probably 20-30 minutes, compared to hours when waking up using normal alarm), the problem was that, after falling asleep again, I couldn't hear the alarms any more. So I think waking up naturally form a REM cycle (which is the purpose of the smart alarm) is definitely helpful, will experiment more.

Cannot stress this enough - SP is not required to induce lucid dreams (even wake induced). There is one sub-method of WILD (out of like ten sub-methods) that uses it, but it's more useful for OBEs where you need to stay still to "exit" your body ,

Yes, I am aware that SP is not required to LD, however it is required to enter a really deep state of trance, where you are able to connect with your subconscious, which is one of the main goals for me in learning LD, as LD is also another way to connect to your subconscious. And I would also like to experience OBEs.

they can be colorful, black and white, animated, even more vivid then real life

.
Yea I have a dream from 2 years ago which is the most vivid memory I currently have. I remeber looking at a cube made of grass, and it was more vivid than real life.

Thanks !

My pleasure! I'm glad that you found it to be helpful!

Originally Posted by TheShaps

Yes, I am aware that SP is not required to LD, however it is required to enter a really deep state of trance, where you are able to connect with your subconscious, which is one of the main goals for me in learning LD, as LD is also another way to connect to your subconscious. And I would also like to experience OBEs.

I could of course be wrong, but I don't see a connection between SP and reaching a deeper trance state. Maybe I should rephrase: SP will probably be present if you reach this state, but you don't necessarily need to use it to get there... I only did very few "paralysis WILDs" (I call them just PILDs ), since regular WILDs seem to me just as capable of inducing OBEs. Just, instead of focusing on breathing / counting / pre-dreams as an anchor, the focus is more on imagining moving your body. So you don't have to acknowledge the paralysis or even have it to do a successful OBE, since your imagined body isn't depended on the paralysis of your real one. Well, that is at least my way of doing it, and OBEs aren't really my goal unless I really feel "like it" in the middle of the night for some weird reason. (I did experience only a handful of them - only one during the last 10 month or so)

Yea I have a dream from 2 years ago which is the most vivid memory I currently have. I remeber looking at a cube made of grass, and it was more vivid than real life.

It just so happened, that I became lucid the night after replying to this thread, and remembered our discussion and my advice on increasing vividness. The dream was less vivid than real life and just by examining my torso with my hands, and later the hands, it became lifelike. And I also managed to make it even more vivid to the point that the whole dreamscape was getting granulated (like if someone increases the contrast of a photo too much). Had to dial it back a bit!

I remember a non-lucid from several year back. Was looking at a woman's face - it was so detailed! Like I saw the contours of every fragment of her skin... I actually woke up from not understanding how her face could possibly be that detailed... Will never forget this one!

Concerning falling asleep, I recently posted this in the sleep and health forum, and it may be of interest to you: http://www.dreamviews.com/sleep-heal...ml#post2184710

Melatonin doesn't shorten the total time of sleep, only rearranges REM time by suppressing it in the early night, causing REM rebound in the morning. In that way it is a good supplement for LDing (and for falling asleep). Also, generally considered to be very safe.

however it is required to enter a really deep state of trance, where you are able to connect with your subconscious

Where is this information coming from? I have never heard of SP as being required for trance states, or that it is necessary in order to connect with you subconscious. I would think hypnosis would be the more helpful doorway, as it can be induced at will with relative ease.

Improving visualization skills involves practicing visualization. One of the ways you can begin is by practicing calm abiding meditation using a mental object, like a ball of light at your forehead, or a flower in your heart center. If I can find a guided video meditation I will share. Please ask questions if anything unclear.

It is probably better to avoid alarms, and instead to train yourself to notice natural wakings through setting intention. Doing this gives you several chances throughout the night to re-set intention and to recall/record dreams if you like.

As for falling asleep, for some (like me, too) it can be a battle. I had a hard time at the beginning of LD practice with middle of the night wakings after about the 5th hour. I still sometimes struggle with wakings after the 5th hour, but now I have a very good chance of making it back to sleep.

Success is mainly determined by

• practicing an effective form of relaxation for both mind and both
• avoiding waking life thoughts: to-do lists, work, family issues, etc.
• determination and willpower to keep doing the relaxation and keep avoiding stimulating thought chains

I wouldn't say I've achieved the ability to consistently, quickly fall asleep upon command. For fast-wakers like me, this probably requires serious, long-term dedication to a daytime meditation practice. It's something I still want to do, as I think it is critical for LD practice success.

What I do mostly for relaxation is recite a self-hypnosis script to myself, saying "on every exhale, I release more and more physical and mental tension. I feel myself moving deeper and deeper into relaxation."

It's important not to try to "force" the relaxation or the sleep, as that usually has the opposite effect of creating insomnia via sleep anxiety ("...OMG, I'm *still* not asleep! Must Try HARDER!.." <- this is a vicious cycle).

Just keep trying different things to find what works for you. The important thing to realize is that you *will* fall asleep if your body needs more sleep, and you can completely relax your mind and body.