Thread: Philosophical question: If you're dreaming you're having an LD are you actually having an LD?

A lucid dream is a dream during which the dreamer is consciously aware they are dreaming. The dreamer is aware that they know they are dreaming during the dream.

A false lucid dream is a dream during which the dreamer is only subconsciously aware they are dreaming. The dreamer is not aware that they know they are dreaming during the dream.

Whether the lucid dream was real or false depends on whether or not you were aware that you knew you were dreaming during the dream.

Originally Posted by dolphin

A lucid dream is a dream during which the dreamer is consciously aware they are dreaming. The dreamer is aware that they know they are dreaming during the dream.

A false lucid dream is a dream during which the dreamer is only subconsciously aware they are dreaming. The dreamer is not aware that they know they are dreaming during the dream.

Whether the lucid dream was real or false depends on whether or not you were aware that you knew you were dreaming during the dream.

Then what about this one:

I'm walking with couple of DCs, one of them stop and say "look a flying pink house" - Me:"We are in the Dream world, everything is possible" and we continue to walk.

Or this one:

I have been cornered by some bandits in a chasing nightmare dream. I suddenly say: Come to me with everything you got, you can't beat me because I'm lucid and I'm the master of this world. I morph my body in 'Appleseed Ex Machina' style and beat hell out of them as dream continue as normal.

Originally Posted by StarSeeker

Then what about this one:

I'm walking with couple of DCs, one of them stop and say "look a flying pink house" - Me:"We are in the Dream world, everything is possible" and we continue to walk.

Or this one:

I have been cornered by some bandits in a chasing nightmare dream. I suddenly say: Come to me with everything you got, you can't beat me because I'm lucid and I'm the master of this world. I morph my body in 'Appleseed Ex Machina' style and beat hell out of them as dream continue as normal.

One of each or both of the dreams could be real or false lucid dreams. As Lang says, only the dreamer themselves can know for sure whether or not they were conscious of the fact they knew they were are dreaming.

The dreamer can, however, make an indication in their description of the dream whether or not they realized they were dreaming. If the dreamer says they realized they were dreaming in some way, they were likely having a real lucid dream. Realization is by definition full awareness, which implies enough self-awareness was present for the dreamer to be conscious that they knew they were dreaming.

Let me take a shot at this:

Originally Posted by Zthread

OK, that's a good point. But what if you're aware that you're in a dream, but you're not aware that the dream you're in is just a dream within a dream?

If you are unaware that you are dreaming about being lucid, then you are not lucid.

There's really no such thing as a dream within a dream (sorry, Inception fans!); it just happened that your dream content was about laying down and having a lucid. Remembering the imagined place where you first lay down during your dream does not count as lucidity, it is merely a part of the overall "having a dream about getting lucid" plot you were experiencing... in other words, Zthread, only your Dream Character "you" was aware of the dream, as prescribed by your dreaming mind/unconscious; at no point did the actual Zthread realize that all of this was a dream. And, of course, what you experience as an unaware DC, no matter how lucid that DC thinks he is, doesn't count as lucidity.

Though Dolphin's answer back in post #2 pretty much covers things, here's another thought: If you were truly lucid in that dream, at any point, you would have known for sure that that desert compound was not real, and you would probably also remember where your sleeping body really is -- especially in this case, because that compound, and the cult, are about as large a red flag as could be flown for a person who is lucid to notice. This I think would be the case even in the most minimal of lucid states: even if you knew you were dreaming but failed to remember your sleeping body (which happens regularly in low-level LD's), you would still know that that compound -- and the place you dreamed about falling asleep -- were just part of the overall dream.

So, bottom line: Dreaming about being lucid happens all the time, especially to we dreamers who spend so much time talking about lucidity, and doing so does not count as lucidity. If (actual) waking-life self-awareness is not present, then you are not lucid, period.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Let me take a shot at this:

If you are unaware that you are dreaming about being lucid, then you are not lucid.

I think it's quite reasonable to look at it that way.

There's really no such thing as a dream within a dream (sorry, Inception fans!); it just happened that your dream content was about laying down and having a lucid.

Exactly. In the same way that when your dream content consists of you driving a car, it doesn't mean you actually are driving a car. So if your dream content is that of having a dream and getting lucid in it, you're not actually lucid.

OTOH, maybe it's a matter of definition. Maybe any dream in which you realize that what you're experiencing isn't your waking reality can be defined as an LD, even if you're seriously deluded about what your actual waking reality is.

Remembering the imagined place where you first lay down during your dream does not count as lucidity, it is merely a part of the overall "having a dream about getting lucid" plot you were experiencing... in other words, Zthread, only your Dream Character "you" was aware of the dream, as prescribed by your dreaming mind/unconscious; at no point did the actual Zthread realize that all of this was a dream. And, of course, what you experience as an unaware DC, no matter how lucid that DC thinks he is, doesn't count as lucidity.

I think that's a persuasive argument, Sageous.

Though Dolphin's answer back in post #2 pretty much covers things, here's another thought: If you were truly lucid in that dream, at any point, you would have known for sure that that desert compound was not real, and you would probably also remember where your sleeping body really is -- especially in this case, because that compound, and the cult, are about as large a red flag as could be flown for a person who is lucid to notice. This I think would be the case even in the most minimal of lucid states: even if you knew you were dreaming but failed to remember your sleeping body (which happens regularly in low-level LD's), you would still know that that compound -- and the place you dreamed about falling asleep -- were just part of the overall dream.

Great point! This gets back to the idea I mentioned a couple of posts ago that if you're fully aware, you should be able to do successful reality fact checks (RFCs). That is, you should be able to make a number of factually correct statements regarding your waking reality (e.g., your name, where you live, what the date is, where you're sleeping at the moment, what job you have, etc.). Really want to start doing RFCs during my LDs!

So, bottom line: Dreaming about being lucid happens all the time, especially to we dreamers who spend so much time talking about lucidity, and doing so does not count as lucidity. If (actual) waking-life self-awareness is not present, then you are not lucid, period.

Well argued! Great point about how people who are into LDing are likely to have dreams involving various aspects of lucidity without actually getting lucid.

Originally Posted by Sageous

So, bottom line: Dreaming about being lucid happens all the time, especially to we dreamers who spend so much time talking about lucidity, and doing so does not count as lucidity. If (actual) waking-life self-awareness is not present, then you are not lucid, period.

Agree.

Originally Posted by StarSeeker

Then what about this one:

I'm walking with couple of DCs, one of them stop and say "look a flying pink house" - Me:"We are in the Dream world, everything is possible" and we continue to walk.

Sounds like that one probably was an LD, but it might not have been.

Or this one:

I have been cornered by some bandits in a chasing nightmare dream. I suddenly say: Come to me with everything you got, you can't beat me because I'm lucid and I'm the master of this world. I morph my body in 'Appleseed Ex Machina' style and beat hell out of them as dream continue as normal.

Also sounds like that was an LD, but it might not have been.

Originally Posted by dolphin

Whether the lucid dream was real or false depends on whether or not you were aware that you knew you were dreaming during the dream.

OK, that's a good point. But what if you're aware that you're in a dream, but you're not aware that the dream you're in is just a dream within a dream?

Then it's a real lucid dream in which the dreamer was aware there were in a dream before they dreamed of waking up and lost lucidity.

Originally Posted by dolphin

Then it's a real lucid dream in which the dreamer was aware there were in a dream before they dreamed of waking up and lost lucidity.

OK, I think you can make a case for that. But I'd have to classify such dreams as a fairly low-level lucids. You're really not all that lucid if you don't know much of anything about your actual waking reality. But I do think of lucidity as being a continuum, so I don't think it's unreasonable to claim you're at least a little bit lucid in such cases.