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    Thread: Philosophical question: If you're dreaming you're having an LD are you actually having an LD?

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      Philosophical question: If you're dreaming you're having an LD are you actually having an LD?

      A couple of weeks ago I dreamed I was a member of an LDing cult. I drank some tea made with an LD-induction herb used by the cult, then went to bed. After falling asleep, I had an "LD." But in this "LD," I believed my waking "reality" consisted of living in the desert compound of the LDing cult, which is not at all similar--except possibly metaphorically--to my actual waking reality. So was this LD I dreamed I had actually an LD, or not? It felt like an actual LD, but that doesn't mean it was one. Because when I dream I'm driving it also feels like I'm actually driving, even though I'm not.
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      A lucid dream is a dream during which the dreamer is consciously aware they are dreaming. The dreamer is aware that they know they are dreaming during the dream.

      A false lucid dream is a dream during which the dreamer is only subconsciously aware they are dreaming. The dreamer is not aware that they know they are dreaming during the dream.

      Whether the lucid dream was real or false depends on whether or not you were aware that you knew you were dreaming during the dream.
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      Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
      A lucid dream is a dream during which the dreamer is consciously aware they are dreaming. The dreamer is aware that they know they are dreaming during the dream.

      A false lucid dream is a dream during which the dreamer is only subconsciously aware they are dreaming. The dreamer is not aware that they know they are dreaming during the dream.

      Whether the lucid dream was real or false depends on whether or not you were aware that you knew you were dreaming during the dream.
      Then what about this one:

      I'm walking with couple of DCs, one of them stop and say "look a flying pink house" - Me:"We are in the Dream world, everything is possible" and we continue to walk.

      Or this one:

      I have been cornered by some bandits in a chasing nightmare dream. I suddenly say: Come to me with everything you got, you can't beat me because I'm lucid and I'm the master of this world. I morph my body in 'Appleseed Ex Machina' style and beat hell out of them as dream continue as normal.
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      In the end, the only person who would know the answer to that question is the dreamer. I know that there are some dreamers out there, including myself who have dreams where you are thinking or even teaching someone about Lucid dreaming but, that doesn't mean that you are aware.
      If you think there was something that caused you to question whether or not you believe that it was a lucid dream than, chances are, you may have been lucid dreaming. Btw, I have had similar occult dreams, years ago. My advice is to look inward to get the answer to your burning question. I know it's clear as mud.
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      Quote Originally Posted by StarSeeker View Post
      Then what about this one:

      I'm walking with couple of DCs, one of them stop and say "look a flying pink house" - Me:"We are in the Dream world, everything is possible" and we continue to walk.

      Or this one:

      I have been cornered by some bandits in a chasing nightmare dream. I suddenly say: Come to me with everything you got, you can't beat me because I'm lucid and I'm the master of this world. I morph my body in 'Appleseed Ex Machina' style and beat hell out of them as dream continue as normal.
      One of each or both of the dreams could be real or false lucid dreams. As Lang says, only the dreamer themselves can know for sure whether or not they were conscious of the fact they knew they were are dreaming.

      The dreamer can, however, make an indication in their description of the dream whether or not they realized they were dreaming. If the dreamer says they realized they were dreaming in some way, they were likely having a real lucid dream. Realization is by definition full awareness, which implies enough self-awareness was present for the dreamer to be conscious that they knew they were dreaming.
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      Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
      Whether the lucid dream was real or false depends on whether or not you were aware that you knew you were dreaming during the dream.
      OK, that's a good point. But what if you're aware that you're in a dream, but you're not aware that the dream you're in is just a dream within a dream?

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      Then it's a real lucid dream in which the dreamer was aware there were in a dream before they dreamed of waking up and lost lucidity.
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      Let me take a shot at this:

      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      OK, that's a good point. But what if you're aware that you're in a dream, but you're not aware that the dream you're in is just a dream within a dream?
      If you are unaware that you are dreaming about being lucid, then you are not lucid.

      There's really no such thing as a dream within a dream (sorry, Inception fans!); it just happened that your dream content was about laying down and having a lucid. Remembering the imagined place where you first lay down during your dream does not count as lucidity, it is merely a part of the overall "having a dream about getting lucid" plot you were experiencing... in other words, Zthread, only your Dream Character "you" was aware of the dream, as prescribed by your dreaming mind/unconscious; at no point did the actual Zthread realize that all of this was a dream. And, of course, what you experience as an unaware DC, no matter how lucid that DC thinks he is, doesn't count as lucidity.

      Though Dolphin's answer back in post #2 pretty much covers things, here's another thought: If you were truly lucid in that dream, at any point, you would have known for sure that that desert compound was not real, and you would probably also remember where your sleeping body really is -- especially in this case, because that compound, and the cult, are about as large a red flag as could be flown for a person who is lucid to notice. This I think would be the case even in the most minimal of lucid states: even if you knew you were dreaming but failed to remember your sleeping body (which happens regularly in low-level LD's), you would still know that that compound -- and the place you dreamed about falling asleep -- were just part of the overall dream.

      So, bottom line: Dreaming about being lucid happens all the time, especially to we dreamers who spend so much time talking about lucidity, and doing so does not count as lucidity. If (actual) waking-life self-awareness is not present, then you are not lucid, period.
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      Quote Originally Posted by StarSeeker View Post
      Then what about this one:

      I'm walking with couple of DCs, one of them stop and say "look a flying pink house" - Me:"We are in the Dream world, everything is possible" and we continue to walk.
      Sounds like that one probably was an LD, but it might not have been.

      Or this one:

      I have been cornered by some bandits in a chasing nightmare dream. I suddenly say: Come to me with everything you got, you can't beat me because I'm lucid and I'm the master of this world. I morph my body in 'Appleseed Ex Machina' style and beat hell out of them as dream continue as normal.
      Also sounds like that was an LD, but it might not have been.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Lang View Post
      In the end, the only person who would know the answer to that question is the dreamer.
      True. But is it possible that sometimes even the dreamer might not have the correct answer?

      I know that there are some dreamers out there, including myself who have dreams where you are thinking or even teaching someone about Lucid dreaming but, that doesn't mean that you are aware.
      That's true.

      If you think there was something that caused you to question whether or not you believe that it was a lucid dream than, chances are, you may have been lucid dreaming. Btw, I have had similar occult dreams, years ago. My advice is to look inward to get the answer to your burning question. I know it's clear as mud.
      Looking inward is always good advice! Also sometimes looking outward works. For example, I think scientists can probably detect differences in the brain state of people who are having LDs versus people who are having regular dreams. If that's true then, at least in theory, that would be a way to tell the difference. Unfortunately, most of us don't have access to the equipment necessary to do that. But probably in a few years that technology will be available to everyone for a reasonable price.

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      Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
      One of each or both of the dreams could be real or false lucid dreams. As Lang says, only the dreamer themselves can know for sure whether or not they were conscious of the fact they knew they were are dreaming.

      The dreamer can, however, make an indication in their description of the dream whether or not they realized they were dreaming. If the dreamer says they realized they were dreaming in some way, they were likely having a real lucid dream. Realization is by definition full awareness, which implies enough self-awareness was present for the dreamer to be conscious that they knew they were dreaming.
      I think you may have hit on the answer, dolphin! Or at least a good answer. If you have full awareness during a dream you definitely are fully lucid. But what is full awareness? Knowing you're dreaming certainly has to be part of it. And maybe any dream where you know you're dreaming should be considered to be a type of LD, though it might only be a fairly "low-level" LD.

      However, it seems like being fully aware should go beyond just knowing you're dreaming. Because if you're really fully aware, you should also have awareness of what your waking reality is. For example, you should know who you are, what the date is, where you live, where and with whome you're sleeping at the moment, what you're planning on doing after you wake up, etc. The more you know about what your waking reality is, the more aware you are. In the dream I described in my first post, I knew I was dreaming. But I didn't know it was just a dream within a dream. For example, I thought I was actually living in the desert compound of an LDing cult, rather than in my actual house. So I can't claim to have been even close to being fully aware.

      It might be interesting and useful to do reality fact checks (RFCs) whenever we realize we're dreaming. This would be similar to, but would go well beyond, what is normally thought of as a reality check (RC). In an RC, you're simply trying to establish that what you're experiencing is not waking reality. The purpose of an RFC would be to see how aware you are of what your waking reality actually is. To do this, you might simply repeat to yourself a few facts about your waking reality. In other words, you might say things like, "My name is _____. At this moment I'm asleep in my bedroom in my house in [city and state]. Today's date is _______." The more you're able to make correct statements of this type, the more lucid you can consider yourself to be.

      I'm going to do some RFCs next time I get lucid. Assuming I actually remember to do them.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-26-2019 at 11:51 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
      Then it's a real lucid dream in which the dreamer was aware there were in a dream before they dreamed of waking up and lost lucidity.
      OK, I think you can make a case for that. But I'd have to classify such dreams as a fairly low-level lucids. You're really not all that lucid if you don't know much of anything about your actual waking reality. But I do think of lucidity as being a continuum, so I don't think it's unreasonable to claim you're at least a little bit lucid in such cases.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-27-2019 at 12:16 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Let me take a shot at this:

      If you are unaware that you are dreaming about being lucid, then you are not lucid.
      I think it's quite reasonable to look at it that way.

      There's really no such thing as a dream within a dream (sorry, Inception fans!); it just happened that your dream content was about laying down and having a lucid.
      Exactly. In the same way that when your dream content consists of you driving a car, it doesn't mean you actually are driving a car. So if your dream content is that of having a dream and getting lucid in it, you're not actually lucid.

      OTOH, maybe it's a matter of definition. Maybe any dream in which you realize that what you're experiencing isn't your waking reality can be defined as an LD, even if you're seriously deluded about what your actual waking reality is.

      Remembering the imagined place where you first lay down during your dream does not count as lucidity, it is merely a part of the overall "having a dream about getting lucid" plot you were experiencing... in other words, Zthread, only your Dream Character "you" was aware of the dream, as prescribed by your dreaming mind/unconscious; at no point did the actual Zthread realize that all of this was a dream. And, of course, what you experience as an unaware DC, no matter how lucid that DC thinks he is, doesn't count as lucidity.
      I think that's a persuasive argument, Sageous.

      Though Dolphin's answer back in post #2 pretty much covers things, here's another thought: If you were truly lucid in that dream, at any point, you would have known for sure that that desert compound was not real, and you would probably also remember where your sleeping body really is -- especially in this case, because that compound, and the cult, are about as large a red flag as could be flown for a person who is lucid to notice. This I think would be the case even in the most minimal of lucid states: even if you knew you were dreaming but failed to remember your sleeping body (which happens regularly in low-level LD's), you would still know that that compound -- and the place you dreamed about falling asleep -- were just part of the overall dream.
      Great point! This gets back to the idea I mentioned a couple of posts ago that if you're fully aware, you should be able to do successful reality fact checks (RFCs). That is, you should be able to make a number of factually correct statements regarding your waking reality (e.g., your name, where you live, what the date is, where you're sleeping at the moment, what job you have, etc.). Really want to start doing RFCs during my LDs!

      So, bottom line: Dreaming about being lucid happens all the time, especially to we dreamers who spend so much time talking about lucidity, and doing so does not count as lucidity. If (actual) waking-life self-awareness is not present, then you are not lucid, period.
      Well argued! Great point about how people who are into LDing are likely to have dreams involving various aspects of lucidity without actually getting lucid.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-27-2019 at 12:12 AM.

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      Full awareness of being in a dream is knowing everything associated with the fact of being in a dream. I think Paul Tholey describes well what full lucidity is. He says a lucid dream includes:

      Awareness of the dream state (orientation)
      Awareness of the capacity to make decisions
      Awareness of memory functions
      Awareness of self
      Awareness of the dream environment
      Awareness of the meaning of the dream
      Awareness of concentration and focus (the subjective clarity of that state).

      You're correct in implying that lucidity is a spectrum and that all lucid dreams do not have the same level of lucidity.
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      Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
      Full awareness of being in a dream is knowing everything associated with the fact of being in a dream. I think Paul Tholey describes well what full lucidity is. He says a lucid dream includes:
      That's a great idea to categorize all the aspects of awareness in an LD!

      Awareness of the dream state (orientation)
      So that's what most people think of when they think of being lucid, right? In other words, it's being aware of the fact that you're dreaming?

      Awareness of the capacity to make decisions
      That would be awareness of how much ability you have to make choices to do different things in the dream state, right?

      Awareness of memory functions
      Not completely sure what that one means. Does it mean an ability to remember things you had intended to do once you got lucid?

      Awareness of self
      So would that mean having a correct awareness of who you are? That is, your name, where you live IWL, where you're sleeping at the moment, etc.? Similar to what I was talking about relating to RFCs in a couple of recent posts?

      Awareness of the dream environment
      Not completely sure what Tholey is getting at with that one. Could you explain it?

      Awareness of the meaning of the dream
      Would that be an awareness of why you might be having the dream? Or maybe what certain dream content might symbolize?

      Awareness of concentration and focus (the subjective clarity of that state).
      I'm also not sure I understand what he means by that one. I guess maybe it's an awareness of how good your concentration is and how well you're able to focus on things you decide to do in the dream?

      You're correct in implying that lucidity is a spectrum and that all lucid dreams do not have the same level of lucidity.
      Definitely!
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-27-2019 at 01:41 AM.

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      you can be lucid to various degrees. It may be a small observation like a thought while simply watching weird stuff and going, "this weird crap is just in my head, it is just dream stuff." It can be on the other end just like an advanced VR game with a completely realistic body you control while examining the elements of the setting and thinking,"ok, I am dreaming again, what were the goals of this months competition" and then being able to change any aspect of the dream or use super powers. Both are lucid dreams. What is probably not a lucid dream is when you experience scenes where you say you are dreaming but it is just more plot to the dream and not an actual realization that it actually a dream. You can be confused as to the actual reality your body is in. Say in the dream you are an alien and now you can tell it is a dream. You fail to remember you are a human on modern Earth, but you actually do realize that what is going on is a figment of your dreaming mind. That is still being lucid. sageous used the term "awareness" and that is the long and short of it. Aware it is a dream = lucid. A scene about dreaming with no real awareness is a good sign but not the actual goal.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      Awareness of the dream state (orientation)
      So that's what most people think of when they think of being lucid, right? In other words, it's being aware of the fact that you're dreaming?
      Yes.
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      Awareness of the capacity to make decisions
      That would be awareness of how much ability you have to make choices to do different things in the dream state, right?
      Yes.
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      Awareness of memory functions
      Not completely sure what that one means. Does it mean an ability to remember things you had intended to do once you got lucid?
      Its the ability to be aware that we can remember things or commit things to memory (to recall later)
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      Awareness of self
      So would that mean having a correct awareness of who you are? That is, your name, where you live IWL, where you're sleeping at the moment, etc.? Similar to what I was talking about relating to RFCs in a couple of recent posts?
      Not exactly, it's much deeper than that. He means self-awareness, which is awareness of our self and its connection to our present surroundings. For example, if we see ourselves in a mirror, self-awareness gives us the ability to be aware that the reflection in the mirror is of ourselves presently looking at the mirror. Another example is self-awareness the ability to identify that we are dreaming and that the dream is coming from us. Another example of self awareness is awareness of why we are having the dream and what certain dream content might symbolize.

      The RFC example you gave involves awareness of the self, but not much of a connection to the present dream. I think Sageous' idea for a RRC ( Reverse Reality Check ) Is closer to a self-awareness exercise.
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      Awareness of the dream environment
      Not completely sure what Tholey is getting at with that one. Could you explain it?
      This is basic awareness. Relative to the self-awareness mirror example, this is awareness of the mirror itself.
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      Awareness of the meaning of the dream
      Would that be an awareness of why you might be having the dream? Or maybe what certain dream content might symbolize?
      No, it means that we're aware what the fact we're dreaming means. It means we're aware that due to the fact we're dreaming, the physical and social rules of waking life don't have to apply in the dream.
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      Awareness of concentration and focus (the subjective clarity of that state).
      I'm also not sure I understand what he means by that one. I guess maybe it's an awareness of how good your concentration is and how well you're able to focus on things you decide to do in the dream?
      Yes, it means we are able to think clearly.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      So, bottom line: Dreaming about being lucid happens all the time, especially to we dreamers who spend so much time talking about lucidity, and doing so does not count as lucidity. If (actual) waking-life self-awareness is not present, then you are not lucid, period.
      Agree.
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      Quote Originally Posted by sivason View Post
      you can be lucid to various degrees. It may be a small observation like a thought while simply watching weird stuff and going, "this weird crap is just in my head, it is just dream stuff." It can be on the other end just like an advanced VR game with a completely realistic body you control while examining the elements of the setting and thinking,"ok, I am dreaming again, what were the goals of this months competition" and then being able to change any aspect of the dream or use super powers. Both are lucid dreams.
      I agree with that.

      Quote Originally Posted by sivason View Post
      What is probably not a lucid dream is when you experience scenes where you say you are dreaming but it is just more plot to the dream and not an actual realization that it actually a dream. You can be confused as to the actual reality your body is in.
      I definitely think you're making a valid point here, but I'm still not completely sure that couldn't be a form of lucidity. For example, suppose you're in a dream within a dream and you realize you're in a dream, but do not realize the dream you're in is a dream within a dream. So, one might say you're not really lucid, because you're just dreaming you're lucid.

      However, suppose that in addition to realizing you're in a dream, you also take advantage of the situation to do the kinds of things you usually do during your regular LDs. For example, suppose you fly around, phase through walls, look at your hands to see if you have extra fingers, try to accomplish one or more of your LD dream goals, etc. If you do things like that, then your dream will certainly seem to be more like an LD than a regular dream.

      In addition, suppose your brain state is closer to the brain state characteristic of LDs than the state characteristic of regular dreams. Then a scientist who happened to be monitoring your brain state would conclude that you're more likely to be having an LD than a regular dream. Of course, most of us aren't having our brain states monitored by scientists during our dreams, so this last point is mostly just theoretical. But that's OK, this whole discussion is mostly just theoretical.

      Quote Originally Posted by sivason View Post
      Say in the dream you are an alien and now you can tell it is a dream. You fail to remember you are a human on modern Earth, but you actually do realize that what is going on is a figment of your dreaming mind. That is still being lucid. sageous used the term "awareness" and that is the long and short of it. Aware it is a dream = lucid. A scene about dreaming with no real awareness is a good sign but not the actual goal.
      Good example. I agree that that you'd be lucid in such a dream.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-28-2019 at 08:20 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
      So that's what most people think of when they think of being lucid, right? In other words, it's being aware of the fact that you're dreaming?
      Yes.
      OK.

      That would be awareness of how much ability you have to make choices to do different things in the dream state, right?
      Yes.
      OK

      Awareness of memory functions
      Not completely sure what that one means. Does it mean an ability to remember things you had intended to do once you got lucid?
      Its the ability to be aware that we can remember things or commit things to memory (to recall later)
      Makes sense.

      So would that mean having a correct awareness of who you are? That is, your name, where you live IWL, where you're sleeping at the moment, etc.? Similar to what I was talking about relating to RFCs in a couple of recent posts?
      Not exactly, it's much deeper than that. He means self-awareness, which is awareness of our self and its connection to our present surroundings. For example, if we see ourselves in a mirror, self-awareness gives us the ability to be aware that the reflection in the mirror is of ourselves presently looking at the mirror. Another example is self-awareness the ability to identify that we are dreaming and that the dream is coming from us. Another example of self awareness is awareness of why we are having the dream and what certain dream content might symbolize.

      The RFC example you gave involves awareness of the self, but not much of a connection to the present dream. I think Sageous' idea for a RRC ( Reverse Reality Check ) Is closer to a self-awareness exercise.
      OK, interesting.... What is a Reverse Reality Check?

      Awareness of the dream environment
      Not completely sure what Tholey is getting at with that one. Could you explain it?
      This is basic awareness. Relative to the self-awareness mirror example, this is awareness of the mirror itself.
      OK, got it.


      Awareness of the meaning of the dream
      Would that be an awareness of why you might be having the dream? Or maybe what certain dream content might symbolize?
      No, it means that we're aware what the fact we're dreaming means. It means we're aware that due to the fact we're dreaming, the physical and social rules of waking life don't have to apply in the dream.
      OK, makes sense.

      Awareness of concentration and focus (the subjective clarity of that state).
      I'm also not sure I understand what he means by that one. I guess maybe it's an awareness of how good your concentration is and how well you're able to focus on things you decide to do in the dream?
      Yes, it means we are able to think clearly.
      OK, also makes sense. I should read some of Tholey's stuff. Sounds like he had some great ideas!
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-28-2019 at 10:17 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      OK, interesting.... What is a Reverse Reality Check?
      This is an exercise Sageous included in his WILD class. https://www.dreamviews.com/wild/1318...prep-part.html

      How do you develop self-awareness? There are many ways, and we’ll likely talk about others during upcoming conversations, but the exercise I’ll offer today is simple introduction to the practice, sort of a Reverse Reality Check (RRC):

      Here’s what to do: At random intervals during the day – at least once an hour but no more than three times in that hour – stop what you’re doing and wonder. Just hold still for a second and remember where you were a few minutes ago, imagine where you’ll be in a few minutes, and know that everything you’re doing right now has an effect on everything and everyone around you, and everything and everyone around you has an effect on you – even if you don’t realize it.

      The important part here is to think deeply about your place in all the stuff that’s whirling around you at any given time, and to really think about what all that whirling is doing to you, and what you might be doing to the whirling. During waking life, you might find yourself very often assuming that there’s not much whirling about at all or that there’s not much of an exchange of effect going on. There always is, whether you can feel it or not. Think about the fact that there is an exchange of atoms between your feet and the floor you’re treading: in a sense you’re changing reality itself, if ever so slightly, just by standing there! It is therefore extremely important to take a moment and remember that you exist, and your existence matters – even if you don’t think it does. [Edit: Your focus during this questioning period should be on your interaction with your local reality -- things/people your presence has influenced, are influencing, and will influence, or things/people that have/will do the same to you. You should avoid getting too metaphysical or galactic, as that atoms example above might imply. For example, perhaps you were just sitting on the couch in your living room 5 minutes ago, doing nothing... sounds like nothing to wonder about, unless you think about the dent you left in the couch, how it will still be warm for the next person in the room, how your comfortable situation on the couch caused you to ignore an important phone call from your boyfriend; the list can go on and on, if you look).]

      You don’t have to recite all those questions every time; that would be annoying, and the process of reciting all that might diminish the effect. Basically you should put it all into a single quick thought that means something to you, and allows wonder to linger after you’ve resumed moving through your waking day. It will be difficult at first, but with practice you won’t be using words at all when you pause, as the questions will have become second nature. Be very careful that the questions never lose their wonder, though. If they become rote -- just a bunch of words you say whenever your iPhone app goes off -- then you will have lost the point of doing the exercise because you will not be acknowledging your self.
      Zthread likes this.

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      Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
      This is an exercise Sageous included in his WILD class. https://www.dreamviews.com/wild/1318...prep-part.html
      Does sound like that'd be useful for LDing. Especially if you did it enough IWL that you began doing it during your dreams.

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      How’s about we go deeper..
      How do we know we are awake right now?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Competitively View Post
      How’s about we go deeper..
      How do we know we are awake right now?
      Great question! I don't think we can ever be 100% sure, but reality checks might give us some degree of confidence that we're either awake or dreaming.

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      Well, if waking-life is a dream, it's a pretty damn impressive one!

      Sivason is better-equipped to discuss the metaphysics of the "we're all existing inside a greater dream" world vision, but:

      Since reality is as complex as it is, I think that we would not be the ones individually producing the dream of waking-life... there would need to be some sort of vast shared dream wherein we all hold generally similar views of the reality we're dreaming up, and each of us is only a contributor, not a creator. Or else we are all just DC's in some god's dream, which makes us even more powerless as individuals. On top of all that, "waking up" from this sort of dream would be extremely difficult -- though I'd bet the rewards for doing so would be pretty impressive. Things like RC's, designed to work as they do in the "waking-life" dream, would be of no help; something much deeper would have to be done.
      Zthread and Djaxup like this.

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