Thread: OOBE's proved wrong

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

all i can say is im a believer in God and in Jesus Christ.. There is going to be a place where we go after we die.. and about near death experiences.. I know a guy (family friend) and he is in the record books at some Chicago hospital because he was clinically dead (there were priests and family members by his bed side) and he came back alive.. now if that isnt near death, then i dont know what is....

spiritofthewolf

Medical advances these days can do wonders. I don't want to get into a religious argument, because that would take up 50 pages, but all I'm saying is...

1) Lucid dreams have been scientifically proven. That means they are fact, regardless of your opinion.

2) OBEs and NDAs haven't been proven or disproven, but the scientists experiments lead to a pretty strong hypothesis that they're in your head rather than your "soul" physically leaving your body.

Hmmm,,, with out getting into a religous 50 page thing,,, can you tell me if your own disbief has something to do with religion. Not what is proven, just yopur reason for caring?

Originally Posted by sivason

Hmmm,,, with out getting into a religous 50 page thing,,, can you tell me if your own disbief has something to do with religion. Not what is proven, just yopur reason for caring?

Nah, it's got nothing to do with my religious beliefs. I just always found it kinda silly that OBEs and NDEs existed. It seemed way too far fetched, like you leave your body and fly up to heaven for a short while! Or you leave your body in the physical plane and wander around. Weeee!

I'm an atheist anyway, I just don't much care for religions.

Originally Posted by lvlindless

Medical advances these days can do wonders. I don't want to get into a religious argument, because that would take up 50 pages, but all I'm saying is...

1) Lucid dreams have been scientifically proven. That means they are fact, regardless of your opinion.

2) OBEs and NDAs haven't been proven or disproven, but the scientists experiments lead to a pretty strong hypothesis that they're in your head rather than your "soul" physically leaving your body.

Also how would you prove it's your soul leaving your body, then your head? first..you will have to know what a soul is made of if there is 1, and
then you will have to understand the functions of it wouldn't you? the Brain seems more likely because we know the brain...not the soul and how it would work with the body.
For all we know all the things happening can be part of the soul or something. Also, with the critics they will go out of their way to disprove the soul and shove asmuch scientific crap down our throats even if
the soul "somehow" gets proven which i got to say...it will be a LONG time if ever. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack. Neurons, and whatever else drives us to see these illusions/feel the things we do can be
all normal things. We understand it but not every inch of detail and because the body reacts the way it does to these things doesn't mean they are fake illusions, maybe they are part of the whole thing.

What would be the point in given a soul for the body if you cannot use the body to go whererever it is we go? or function to get to the places if you wish?
Maybe it is an illusion and there really is nothing and life is really a mistake. 1 life and nothing after would obviously mean we are a mistake..there is no point to even exist especially if you die at or just after birth because the rest of the time it is nothingness from something forever.

Alot of people have dreams where they precive other entities, like another lucid dreamer. They PRECIEVE that they are playing games with other groups of dreamers. I have those kind of dreams. Do the people who don't believe in OBE then think this is just fantasy created in the minds of dreamers. I sure have an elaborate set of long term relationships with some of these dreamers. OR LET ME SAY... I have precieved for years that many dreamers can share a common dream. Do any of you think this is just a very complex hallucination or overwhelmingly detailed self delusion?> Is it not related to OBE? I mean can shared dreams exist while OBE do not?

I don't see why people get so riled up at the idea of existence outside the body. Loss of control? God's punishment? I'll blame religion on this one.

see my last post. If OBE does not exist is shared dreaming possible? Or would it also be just imagination inside your own head, no matter how real it seems?

Originally Posted by sivason

see my last post. If OBE does not exist is shared dreaming possible? Or would it also be just imagination inside your own head, no matter how real it seems?

I've had tons of LDs where I was with someone from real life, and I actually thought it was them. I then realized we might be dream sharing, so I did a few things to see if they would remember it.

One day I woke up after a dream share with my mom, and realized she had been at work for the entire time I had been dreaming. So it was all in my head.

I'd like to think dream sharing is possible, but very very very unlikely. Anything's possible until proven right or wrong.

I have had the same thing before. Honestly beliving I met a family member only to realize they where awake at that time. I do however think I may be seeing other dreamers as my family, in forms familiar to me. I also run into the same DCs over and over who tell me they are real, they control the dream more than me even if I am 'god lucid' when I do not have the shared dream experiance. HMMM, if this is a 10+ year hoax my brain is pulling (and it just may be, who knows) it sure is cool that the brain could trick me like that and keep it up. Brains are so cool.

Originally Posted by lvlindless

Anything's possible until proven right or wrong.

That was a very good point you made about lucid dreaming vlindless, and the same can be said about oobe's.

It is best to keep an open mind about something if possible, as it will make it more achievable if it turns out to be true.

As far as the video goes, I think it did more to prove oobe's than to disprove them, as I think that it is more likely the near death experiences the people experienced were probably caused by oobe's due to the movement they were experiencing rather than just a lack of blood or oxygen to the brain.

The reason I say that is that people pass out all the time without having near death experiences. But take a ride in a very topsy turvy carnival ride similar to the thing used in the experiement and you can feel like a part of you gets left behind.

So that ride is probably very conducive to producing an oobe. And if it doesn't do that it could certainly make a person feel like they left part of themselves like their astral body, back on the ride.

It just makes sense that if people have spirits which live on in a different dimension after their physical body dies, and I've had enough experiences with people who have passed on to believe this myself, that it might be possible for those same spirits to sometimes escape their physical body before they die, or in cases where they maybe do die for a short time and then come back to life.

I've been able to prove to myself that oobe's exist because I've visited people who were later able to verify that I visited them, and that's all I care about.

Originally Posted by lvlindless

I've had tons of LDs where I was with someone from real life, and I actually thought it was them. I then realized we might be dream sharing, so I did a few things to see if they would remember it.

One day I woke up after a dream share with my mom, and realized she had been at work for the entire time I had been dreaming. So it was all in my head.

I'd like to think dream sharing is possible, but very very very unlikely. Anything's possible until proven right or wrong.

haha I have done a similar experiment myself...with the same results.

Originally Posted by iadr

Although some near death experiences may be nothing more than a very vivid dream or something a person is imagining, I think it would be a little hard to refute someone who actually left their body and then hovered over their body and watched what happened to their body while they were dead for a brief time, and who are later able to explain to other people what they saw happening.

I have never read any account of this that I believe. The accounts are too
fuzzy! Anyone can dream up the exact scene and people that is happening
around them at the time of death. If I were at the scene of a car crash,
and there was a dead body there, and then this person came back to life
before they even knew what actually happened besides that they saw a
car coming at them....then nothing.....and then that person said to me,
a blue ford truck hit me and in it were two women, a boy and a girl and
a baby, and one woman is dead, and the truck is backwards in the ditch
behind me to the left, and I saw you stop here in your little red car, and
you walked straight over here to me first........then I'd probably be a believer.
But if they said....I was hovering above the crash, and I saw the ambulance
come, and medics all about, and the car over there and bla bla bla. Just
not enough info for me.

Originally Posted by iadr

The first time I came tumbling back into my body after having been out of it, and the first time I woke up to find myself floating above my body and being conscious of both my spirit which was floating above my body, and at same time being conscious of my body which was laying in the bed, was all I needed to be convinced that I am more than a body, and that a spirit does indeed exist on the inside of me which is capable of leaving my body at times.

I do this every time. I leave my body into a lucid dream. I can float up
above my body and then I can then look at my body still lying there in
bed. I have done this. It's just a lucid dream. The only way you can ever
prove to me that you are actually really OOB, is by flying over to my
house, tell me what time it is on my clock at the time, turn on my tv,
turn on my stereo, and then tell me what I did when all that happened
at my house for no scientific reason. Of course though, I have to be
here as well. I know you don't know me or where i live, but its the only
way you're ever going to get me to believe you, even though you don't
care if i do or i don't.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Maybe it is an illusion and there really is nothing and life is really a mistake. 1 life and nothing after would obviously mean we are a mistake..there is no point to even exist especially if you die at or just after birth because the rest of the time it is nothingness from something forever.

A tree hasn't a soul. If a soulless tree dies, it doesn't have an afterlife.
Was that tree a mistake then?

(This is the last post I'll quote.....I swear!
But this thread is severely interesting to me,
I'm glad someone revived it!)

This doesn't really prove much in my opinion. It's a best guess at what happens. I mean blood leaving brain etc. causing hallucinations okay yeah, but as for other things.... I mean yeah I am still considering it as a possibility.

Just because there is a physiological explanation doesn't mean there isn't spiritual relevance in near death situations.
I agree it is essentially a dream or hallucination, but I think dreams and hallucinations might have great meaning.
It's just like somebody believing evolution means no God or God means no evolution.
Why can't people make the connection of science and spirituality.
Where theres physical there is also spiritual. Somehow it just doesn't make sense to just have one or the other. "Hallucination" is the scientific word for the religious "vision". We just call them visions when they have significant meaning or prophecy.

Originally Posted by sivason

Alot of people have dreams where they precive other entities, like another lucid dreamer. They PRECIEVE that they are playing games with other groups of dreamers. I have those kind of dreams. Do the people who don't believe in OBE then think this is just fantasy created in the minds of dreamers. I sure have an elaborate set of long term relationships with some of these dreamers. OR LET ME SAY... I have precieved for years that many dreamers can share a common dream. Do any of you think this is just a very complex hallucination or overwhelmingly detailed self delusion?> Is it not related to OBE? I mean can shared dreams exist while OBE do not?

There are a lot of topics on shared dreaming on this forum, you can use the search function to find them. Suffice it to say that the majority of people here don't believe in them, or at least are very very skeptical.

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

all i can say is im a believer in God and in Jesus Christ.. There is going to be a place where we go after we die.. and about near death experiences.. I know a guy (family friend) and he is in the record books at some Chicago hospital because he was clinically dead (there were priests and family members by his bed side) and he came back alive.. now if that isnt near death, then i dont know what is....

spiritofthewolf

Clinically Dead :
The cease of breathing and bloodflow to vital organs.

Umm... Wtf?

If he was "Clinically Dead" then he didn't die. This is like the difference between a tKO and a KO, one, you don't get up before the referee gets to ten, the second, you are literally unconcious. See the difference?

Clinical death can be remedied by a sudden consentration of synapses throughout the body, these synapses act as alternators, and re-start sensory organs. These synapses can be so powerful, they cause hallucenations (e.g "tunnel of light", and "Old friends & family long gone"). So, you didn't die, you went into sleep mode. If you had died, there would be no more brain synapses. So, your friend didn't die, he merely shut off for a second .

Originally Posted by jamous

These guys make athiests look really bad.

Actually, they make athEIsts look good. No religion ever had such a strong message of love.


Being clinically dead doesn't mean you're actually dead. Clinical death was just a "line" doctors made in order to make thinsg easier.

Theoretically, during a heart transplant, you go clinically dead for a few moments (you lose your heart after all) and then bam you're alive again.



And finally, shared dreaming is all ignorance imho. It's easy to meet a DC in a dream and believe you did actually share your dreams with someone. I dare you to prove this scientifically, by telling the other dreaming something and then asking him/her what you told him/her.

Do that (which of course has already been tried by many people, and yet we see no positive result so far) and you'll have proven shared dreaming true. Or maybe just an extreme coincidence, we never know.

Here's what I don't understand.

The film shows quite clearly that an occurrence that is completely non-mystical/spiritual in nature can give the experience that has been labeled a "near-death" experience. Nobody on this thread has attempted to dispute this; it is quite clear the study participants had similar experiences.

Even if this is not iron-clad evidence that NDEs do not exist, it quite adequately demonstrates that any experience thought to be a NDE might not be spiritual in nature, but could have a much more mundane explanation. In other words, it proves that the spiritual interpretation of NDEs cannot be proven true.

So why is it that no one has come into this thread believing in NDEs and said "Gee... that's revealing! I guess there could be another explanation."? Where are the pro-NDE open minds?

you know what..
those stupid scientists are wrong cause when are in an OBE you see things that are actually happening, and that could never happen even if it is the most vivid dream in the world.

they can say whatever they want but OBEs are still real

Originally Posted by viking-45

you know what..
those stupid scientifics are wrong cause when are in an OBE you see things that are actually happening, and that could never happen even if it is the most vivid dream in the world

How are you so sure? One person seeign something that happened doesn't prove anything. Behind him/her there are 1,000,000 other people who had an OBE and didn't see what happened.

Ever heard the word "coincidence"?


Finally, you can still hear or maybe even see things while dreaming. That again makes me suspiscious about OBEs.

Originally Posted by viking-45

...those stupid scientifics...

I don't think scientists are stupid at all

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html. There's 53 articles on that site that provide evidence for near-death experiences, some of which occured while the person was brain dead. For those who say near-death experiences are just dreams, could you please explain how that's possible?

again, brain death it just a medical category. There are cases of being clinically dead (which is not REALLY dead) and then coming back to life.


The only way to make sure the person's brain was really dead is after a period of time. And coma is not brain death for you to know


If the person's brain really was dead, they could never be alive now.



And about seeing the surgeons and stuff: you can actually see things while clinically brain dead. If your eyes open, the information will be stored, unconsciously. The pacient can also hear things and record them.


Again the "blind people seeing" thing. All bullshit. Blind people do see colours and lights in their dreams. And the section of the article you mentioned is too raw. Explains nothing nor gives scientifical views. Misinformation is a weapon you know.



Finally, the only way to prove consciousness remains after death is to die. To be COMPLETELY dead, not clinically dead (clinical death: the point at which doctors cannot save a patient anymore. Doesn't mean real death)



Finally, read about HI for thinsg similar to the famous "tunnel effect"

Originally Posted by Kromoh

How are you so sure? One person seeign something that happened doesn't prove anything. Behind him/her there are 1,000,000 other people who had an OBE and didn't see what happened.

Ever heard the word "coincidence"?


Finally, you can still hear or maybe even see things while dreaming. That again makes me suspiscious about OBEs.




I don't think scientists are stupid at all

dude, it cant be a coincidence that every time that you get out of your body you see exactly the things that happened.

and why is it so dificult to believe that there is something more than your body ,that something more is you. you are energy , negative and positive energy that constitutes you.
you are your mind and soul, the body is just a physical way to interact with the physical world

and by stupid scientists i dont mean academically , i mean that they deny everything that cant be prooven with science. and deny to proove it by experience thats the stupid part

Originally Posted by viking-45

dude, it cant be a coincidence that every time that you get out of your body you see exactly the things that happened.

and why is it so dificult to believe that there is something more than your body ,that something more is you. you are energy , negative and positive energy that constitutes you.
you are your mind and soul, the body is just a physical way to interact with the physical world

and by stupid scientists i dont mean academically , i mean that they deny everything that cant be prooven with science. and deny to proove it by experience thats the stupid part

Oh yeah, you do?

Let's do some scientifical experiment then. I really think you don't see things that happened everytime you have (what you think to be) an OBE. It's like once in many, many occurances.

I'm am my body. My brain is my body, my thoughts are my body. It's all physical. What you call a soul is all just another great tool evolution gave us, which is consciousness.


If something cannot be proven by science in any way, high chances are it is false. There is a pink elephant behind you right now, but I can't prove it scientifically you know. You have to believe it yourself.

Originally Posted by viking-45

you know what..
those stupid scientists are wrong cause when are in an OBE you see things that are actually happening, and that could never happen even if it is the most vivid dream in the world.

they can say whatever they want but OBEs are still real

Can you do it when you want to?? Because if you can, then why not come
over to my house next Friday night while your OOB, at a specific time,and tell
me what I'm doing then. I'll give you the directions! Also, tell me enough about
what my house looks like inside, that I will believe you. Please!! Someone prove
this to me! I beg you! If you can do it, then I'll believe!!

Regardless of what brainfunctioning and activity causes this these experiences are as real as any other experience. The fact that certain brainprocesses seem to be synchronised with these experiences doesn't really say a DAMN thing about wether they are Real or not. TO me it's very simple: IF I experience it it is real.

To me it sounds a bit rediculous to experience the most intense, impressive and immersive dreams, Wake up and then conclude that all we just experienced must have been " Not Real". Then what DID I just experience? I can really only conclude that it wasn't of this, waking, reality.

Can you tell me what happens between the brain going into a certain activity and chemistry and the actual experience of a Dream? Where does the brain stop and the Mind begin huh?

There's no scientific proof that the MIND is actually real. There would be nothing in narrowminded science to even start tracing something as abstract as the Mind, yet we all experience consciousness, thoughts, dreams, hallucinations and other such abstract perceptions.

So we know that when we dream/OOBE/Hallucinate there are certain alterations in the functiopning of the brain, but that doesn't explain anything about the experiences they may cause me to have really. It's just a bunch of statistics next to a mystery that is beyond our understanding to understand. Science is just not willing to admit that they cannot understand Reality properly using the limited, narrowminded frame of mind and defenitions of reality they have. They need to open their goddamn minds to the truth, whatever it may be, not exclude possiblities: Who are they? Gods or Reality? They can only speculate Reality, not Define it.

Is it really that hard to admit for these Scientists that "are bent on explaining all of reality for ya" that, allthough we've figured out some brain-activity and processes, we really have no clue of what we experience in such "questionable" states of mind. No proof to put any other theory or belief in question at all.