Does anyone else practice LD on SSRIs?

**lucidboy** · 05-07-2012 09:14 AM

I have read a lot different things about peoples experiences with lucid dreaming and SSRIs. However one thing that i have always found is that SSRIs cause your dreams to become extremely vivid, lucid or not, due to REM rebound.
I have read that it inhibits dream recall, and have also read that it makes it harder to become lucid, but have personally experienced the exact opposite.

Almost all of my LDs, except for the very first one i had by mistake years before, have happened while ive been on zoloft.

I have found that lower and higher doses have their pros and cons as far as gaining lucidity. I have been the most successful on 50mg, having lucids in at least 50% of my dreams, and remembering 3 to 4 every night. When i go off of the drug, my dreams become dark, sad, and scary. I become lucid far less often, and the majority of my dreams are nightmares. Tapering back onto the drug, my dreams are happy, bright and vivid and i am lucid frequently.

When on higher doses of the drug, my dreams become so complex and flooded with emotion and information that it is hard to describe in words. i have woken up in a cold sweat, feeling like i had not been in my body for months, and grabbed my labtop and tried to type out what had just happened to me, but had absolutely no idea what to say. While on these high doses (200mg daily) my dreams became so powerful and vivid it became exhausting. The emotions i felt, that often carried on into the day for hours, were beyond anything i have ever experienced before. i still struggle to find words for exactly "what" those emotions are. Epic is a good word, but fails to truly capture what it felt like.

I am only now beginning to experiment in the "middle range", and am currently on 100mg daily. I am still lucid in the majority of my dreams, and they are becoming increasingly clearer but also much more intense. I often have to pause before writing things down, as it is becoming increasingly difficult to "translate" what happens in the dream. Visual events often have complex plots that play into the bigger picture of the dream, almost like captions, that flood my mind in an instant and quickly change into more bizarre and increasingly complex stories and plots. Every night i have to write a little more in order to capture the dream. It is very interesting and also very challenging.

I have also experimented with Galantamine, Choline, Aplha GPC, Mucuna Pruriens, Yohimbine, Calea Zacatechichi, Melatonin, and Vitamin B6, all while on 50mg of zoloft. I have done them all alone, and in different combinations and have found remarkably different dream "realities" for each of them. Many of these are near impossible to explain, but each time i am immersed in their reality, the feeling of that reality is very distinct and familiar. They are all also very different when taken alone, when i have tapered off of the zoloft for several weeks. Again, all of my dreams were darker, scarier, and less lucid than my dreams while on zoloft. While they did help aid in my lucidity, that effect is magnified when i am on antidepressants.

I have always wondered if anyone else has had such profound dream experiences from SSRI use, or if i am the only one that uses SSRIs to help my lucid dreaming.

**Mystycal** · 05-07-2012 10:07 AM

Wow, that is a lot of valuable research right there, I bet people will find it very helpful and maybe go for zoloft too.

Personally, however, I dunno, I might be just too much of a pussy, but I've made it my lifelong goal to avoid these kinds of drugs and those that are more dangerous (heroin, cocaine, marijuana). I just don't like the thought of the drugs being like crutches: and once they're gone, I realise I've lost the ability to walk, so to speak, in this case lucid dream safely.

**n00bf0rlyf3** · 05-09-2012 12:21 AM

If Zoloft gives you good vivid dreams stay on that shit bro. But the longer your on it the worse your dreams will be when you're not on it (I'm assuming)

**Patrick** · 05-14-2012 02:31 PM

Serotonin levels are lowered during REM sleep, but at an intermediary level during lucid dreaming. Therefore I would expect that taking SSRIs (enhancing serotinergic transmission) would reduce REM length and perhaps vividness. But it could also, like you said, increase the chances of lucid dreaming.

The neuromodulatory systems you are trying to fiddle around with are very complex though, so who knows what's really going on.

**madvorak** · 05-14-2012 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Serotonin levels are lowered during REM sleep, but at an intermediary level during lucid dreaming. Therefore I would expect that taking SSRIs (enhancing serotinergic transmission) would reduce REM length and perhaps vividness. But it could also, like you said, increase the chances of lucid dreaming.

The neuromodulatory systems you are trying to fiddle around with are very complex though, so who knows what's really going on.

Can you provide a link to read, that serotonin levels are intermediary during LDing (and therefore higher then during ordinary dreams)? I thought that serotonin levels are very low during LDing, because LDs occur usually with high acetylcholine levels (and high acetylcholine level occurs when serotonin level is low afaik).

**Patrick** · 05-14-2012 03:43 PM

http://194.80.240.74/images/events/R...20Dreaming.pdf

Allan Hobson theorises that lucid dreaming is an intermediary state between REM and waking in terms of neuromodulation.

You're completely correct in that there is reciprocal inhibition between cholinergic and serotinergic modulatory centres, but it's possible that there is some sort of mid-ground in lucid dreaming. The main reasoning behind this is that other aspects of brain state are at an intermediary level in lucid dreaming, so it is likely that neuromodulation is also in some sort of mid-ground.

**lucidboy** · 05-19-2012 05:44 AM

Well to be honest all that is different language to me...
I understand a little bit about the chemicals in the brain, but not enough to really know what is going on.
However i know that the increased serotonin levels from the zoloft dramatically increased the vividness of my dreams. Maybe this is why i became lucid so much more.
Or maybe the dreams are so vivid because I'm lucid so often...

**lucidboy** · 05-24-2012 01:42 AM

Just an update for you guys:
I have currently been on the new dosage of 100mg each morning for almost three weeks. At first, it was a struggle to transcribe my dreams because the complexity of the scenarios and the enormous amount of seemingly unrelated information they contained, but as my body adjusted to the medicine, this became less of an issue. My dreams feel very similar to when i am on the 50 mg dosage, with one big difference: my dream control is amazing.
Even with the amount of lucid dreams I've had, there are still times when i struggle with certain aspects of dream control. Changing the weather has always been particularly difficult for me.
However my dreams the past few nights have been remarkable. They are even more vivid than before, and either this increase in dream clarity or the increase in the amount of serotonin in my brain, have lead to an increase in confidence and ability in my dreams. I have yet to attempt something and fail, and am able to do all of it with ease. This morning i flew faster than i have ever flown before, while trying to catch up to a plane i saw fly by.
I am going to take advantage of this, and try to push my limits. Do something I've never done before. Maybe shapeshifting, i still haven't tried that.
I love my dreams =)

**Patrick** · 05-24-2012 09:57 AM

Awesome, congrats on your success!

**madvorak** · 06-01-2012 07:59 AM

I still wonder how SSRI affects dream recall and LDing.
Due to more serotonin in the synaptic, you have short, but more "real" REM period IMO. Do SSRI affect the melatonin level? I expect they could lower the melatonin level, because less serotonin remains outside the synaptic to be metabolized into melatonin. Tell me if I am wrong. I don't know if it increases the total amount of serotonin in brain.
Another issue is acetylcholine. High levels of serotonin result in low levels of acetylcholine and vice versa. However where is it determined? If the acetylcholine level depends on the amount of serotonin in the synaptic, it will be lowered. However if the acetylcholine level depends on serotonin level outside the synaptic, it could be elevated.
Do you know anything about it? The effect of SSRI on dreams seems to be very complex. It probably works different for various people.

**lucidboy** · 06-02-2012 02:04 AM

Hah yes, i only wish i understood more about the chemistry of the brain and the effects of SSRIs, but my only experience is its use, not the science behind it.
I would have to agree with you with the shorter but more "real" REM periods. This is possibly why it becomes so hard to interpret my dreams on the higher doses, as my brain is trying to fit the same amount of information with a lot less time, causing my dreams to be vivid and extremely emotional.

**tommo** · 06-12-2012 04:51 AM

Taking anti-depressans lead to the most insane dreams I've had in my life.
And if you read my DJ, you'd know that's definitely saying something haha

I think I may have written a couple of posts here years ago detailing the effects of various anti-depressants; MAOI's, SSRI's, SNRI's.

You'd have to search for it though, it was at least 3 or 4 years ago. I can't remember which one did what.

I do remember one of them just made my dreams ridiculously realistic.
For example in one dream I was just sitting there at school during lunch, with a couple of friends, doing absolutely nothing. Just looking around and doing nothing. For the entire dream.

They made my dreams much more cohesive. Like each dream would work seamlessly in to the next. Leading to seemingly all-night dreams.

But IMO the side-effects and addictiveness of them far outweigh the positives. This goes for 5-HTP as well. Seems to have the exact same drawbacks. But I recently started taking 5-HTP on just one night every once in a while. Should be safer.

**melanieb** · 06-12-2012 05:02 AM

I saw this thread and immediately had to show Alyzarin. It's hard for me to imagine a thread like this without her input.

I'll refer to her as the local expert. Hopefully she will post.

**~~Alyzarin~~** · 06-12-2012 05:57 AM

Apparently I've been beckoned. X)

I'm sure we could all theorize endlessly on the relationship between SSRIs and dreams. There are so many variables at play.

First, there are the different phases of effects of SSRIs. You start with the therapeutic lag, the two-week build up to full effects. The reason it works this way is because when you first start on SSRIs your serotonin autoreceptors like 5-HT1A are sensitive to activation, and those autoreceptors actually reduce serotonin levels, thereby rendering the effects of serotonin reuptake inhibitors useless until these effects are overcome by receptor desensitization. This is also the reason that serotonin reuptake inhibitors are not recreational, unlike serotonin releasing agents like MDMA which flood the synapse with enough serotonin to overcome this inhibition immediately. However, just because serotonin is being depleted doesn't change the fact that these autoreceptors are being activated, and they have other effects of their own as well. Receptors like 5-HT1A and 5-HT2A actually increase dopaminergic effect, which makes sense as serotonin and dopamine often have inverse relationships, and 5-HT1A lowers glutamate and acetylcholine while 5-HT2A increases GABA activity and anandamide synthesis.

The dopaminergic area of the brain is necessary for dreaming, and increasing dopamine levels (as long as it's not enough to stimulate you and keep you awake) will enhance dreams. Lowered glutamate levels increase dissociation of the mind from body and upregulates dopamine D2 receptors, which also increases vividness and keeps you asleep better. Lowered acetylcholine drops lucidity a little bit, but probably not to a significant degree in this case. It's actually inverse correlated with dopamine here, so just kind of think of them as going hand in hand - you don't want too little acetylcholine just like you don't want too much dopamine, but a push in either direction is nice. GABAergic are known to increase dreams in small doses as well, and anandamide is an endocannabinoid, which means that it stimulates a release of phenethylamine and activates D2 as well. Too much of either of these will also inhibit dreams, but again, that's probably not significant in this case.

Once you've finally overcome the therapeutic lag, what I would imagine is going on is that these same receptors are being activated and so these chemical changes are still occurring, however serotonin is now remaining as a significantly active constituent. If I had to guess, I would say that this is where a good deal of the intense dreams come into play. Higher serotonin levels seem to increase vividness of details and definitely increase emotional intensity. Translate this into already enhanced dreams and what you've got is a dream with a stunning (sometimes literally) level of complex architecture and deep, meaningful plots. Furthermore, 5-HT2A is the psychedelic receptor.... Serotonin alone may not cause the level of colorful, chaotic visuals that something like LSD or psilocin would, but you'd be quite mistaken to think that it doesn't have lots of dissociative and ego-crushing potential. It doesn't surprise me to think that overstimulation of serotonin receptors (like with the higher SSRI doses) could cause bizarre, unexplainable, reality-bending dreams. However, I'd say there's another possibility for this, too.

SSRIs have been shown to actually decrease serotonin levels in a surprisingly short span of time. This is because serotonin levels aren't actually being increased by SSRIs at all, it's just being held in the synapse longer and therefor the receptors are being activated more strongly. The brain responds to this by creating less serotonin. This is one of the reasons SSRIs are actually a pretty bad idea for most people to take... and likely why they turn most people who've been on them for years into emotionless zombies. As I believe has been said, serotonin levels are lower during REM sleep. Personally, I think this mechanism is facilitated through either GABA-A or 5-HT2A (or both). That could in part be why dreams are enhanced in longer-term use of SSRIs. Dopamine levels will also be increased because of this, which as I said earlier will enhance dreams. Anything beyond that is really speculation for me (as if it all wasn't already), but I do have something more to add.

SSRI withdrawals are actually a result of very high serotonin levels. Ridiculous, isn't it? But it's because quitting SSRIs after that phase where serotonin has been downregulated forces the brain to overcompensate to try to restore serotonergic activity to normal. Unlike the normal healthy amounts of lowered acetylcholine seen in dreams, this overstimulation of serotonin receptors will cause a low enough level to significantly reduce lucidity and vividness of dreams. In addition, anticholinergics (i.e., drugs that work to directly inhibit acetylcholine) are known to frequently cause nightmares. So that's probably where that connection comes in.

My two cents. I'm kind of tired right now, so sorry if it seems like I rambled a bit.

**Phion** · 06-12-2012 09:11 AM

Probably an appropriate place to post this: Serotonin Syndrome.

**lucidboy** · 06-18-2012 02:03 AM

Im confused lol
I had always been under the impression that serotonin syndrome was triggered by mixing dangerous drugs together, is this incorrect?
I have been under the supervision of a psychiatrist once a month since i was first prescribed it. I have mentioned to him my lucid dreams many times.
I was not prescribed this medication for my dreams or anything like that, i was diagnosed with panic attack disorder. Welbutrin was the first drug that helped me, but it gave me very creepy dreams. Eventually I switched to zoloft, and discovered its effects on my dreams.

**lucidboy** · 06-18-2012 02:04 AM

Also, thank you everyone for your responses!
I really do wish i could understand your brain language, but it is still sort of a mystery to me

**~~Alyzarin~~** · 06-18-2012 02:06 AM

Serotonin syndrome can be caused from SSRIs, but the chances of it happening from an SSRI alone are unlikely (unless you're taking very high doses). Your main worry is mixing it with other SSRIs, and MAOIs. Make absolutely sure that nothing you can mix your pills with is one of those and you should be fine.

**tommo** · 06-18-2012 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by lucidboy

Im confused lol
I had always been under the impression that serotonin syndrome was triggered by mixing dangerous drugs together, is this incorrect?
I have been under the supervision of a psychiatrist once a month since i was first prescribed it. I have mentioned to him my lucid dreams many times.
I was not prescribed this medication for my dreams or anything like that, i was diagnosed with panic attack disorder. Welbutrin was the first drug that helped me, but it gave me very creepy dreams. Eventually I switched to zoloft, and discovered its effects on my dreams.

Welbutrin, a stimulant, for panic attacks.... right.

Get a new psychiatrist.

Also none of this is really hard to understand. Most of it actually unnecessary, basically all you need to know is one of the effects of anti-depressants is crazy/vivid dreams. Because they are increasing serotonin, which causes, apparently, REM rebound. Which means, in this case, you dream less at the start of the night and dream more toward the end.

**lucidboy** · 06-18-2012 04:48 AM

Yes well I don't believe he's totally useless, i went through several psychiatrists before getting to him and also went through a lot of medication therapy. Im sort of an odd case, or so I'm told... I am told i have ADD and an anxiety attack disorder, but my attacks are more like panic attacks than anxiety ones.
After months of therapy, I was then put on every kind of downer you could imagine, and none of them worked for my anxiety. It kind of suppressed it, but it almost felt like i just got locked inside of a little box inside my head and was freaking out but couldn't even remember why. All i wanted was to think and figure out what was wrong but i couldn't. That feeling was almost as bad as the panic attacks...
After a lot of therapy and seeing several psychiatrists and therapists, they tested me for add. Then came the welbutrin, which worked a thousand times better than valium, xanex, seroquel, ativan, or prozac. Bleh not fun times...

**lucidboy** · 06-18-2012 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by tommo

Welbutrin, a stimulant, for panic attacks.... right.
Also none of this is really hard to understand. Most of it actually unnecessary, basically all you need to know is one of the effects of anti-depressants is crazy/vivid dreams. Because they are increasing serotonin, which causes, apparently, REM rebound. Which means, in this case, you dream less at the start of the night and dream more toward the end.

Thats about all i knew when i started this thread, and i am starting to realize its probably all i ever will know lol

**tommo** · 06-18-2012 06:12 AM

Ah. yeah, I was thinking if you've got ADD, for some reason stimulants do the opposite. Really weird.

Well, happy crazy dreams

**~~Alyzarin~~** · 06-18-2012 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by tommo

Ah. yeah, I was thinking if you've got ADD, for some reason stimulants do the opposite. Really weird.

I have a friend with ADD, and I just saw him get really coked up for the first time the other night... he acted like he was on a pain killer or something.

Bizarre stuff.

**lucidboy** · 06-18-2012 03:26 PM

It really is strange.
Hah you should see me when i smoke weed... People tell me i act like im on meth lol. Any kind of stimulant on the other hand (except for actual meth, i would never touch that stuff) makes me super mellow and calm. Even caffeine does this, but it only mellows me out on the outside. My brain definitely speeds up, it just looks like I'm calm lol

**lucidboy** · 06-18-2012 03:29 PM

Now i am curious as to the effects of ADD and dreams...
Whenever i am in a dream, i never really struggle to stay focused. Unless i lose my lucidity, but i think that is normal for anyone. Otherwise, i am very clear minded and not at all struggling to concentrate. Its a very nice feeling.