Thread: Exciting new EILD device: Oneirics!

tACS Device
Oh yeah

This sounds like an amazing and effortless future for lucid dreaming
From experiments tACS 40 Hz seem to give around 70% success rate, increased vivideness of dreams and nearly 100% dream recall
Combined with Rem Phase Detection it will be quite quite Awesome (Assuming that we won't be already masters of lucid dreaming by day of Oneirics tACS Device release )

I really like the concept and would purchase such a device, especially if there is positive results/feedback w/r/t efficacy. Not totally crazy about the buckle on the mask, though. Hard metal pressed into my skin by the weight of my melon-head does NOT sound appealing nor conducive to a good night's sleep.

DH

Originally Posted by DoubleHelix

I really like the concept and would purchase such a device, especially if there is positive results/feedback w/r/t efficacy. Not totally crazy about the buckle on the mask, though. Hard metal pressed into my skin by the weight of my melon-head does NOT sound appealing nor conducive to a good night's sleep.

DH

I've reviewed the campaign site again and the buckle is clearly only associated with the wristband. skip to 2:50 in the video where the woman takes off the mask with one hand: clearly a velcro based band.

Thanks for posting this! I like to back projects along these lines in the hope that enough funding and encouragement will keep the improving the available technology.

I haven't found a technological solution that has worked for me yet, but I maintain high hopes that one of the newer ones in development might hit the mark. I've never liked wearing a sleep mask, but I should probably learn to get used to it...

Yes I've been sleeping with a sleep mask over a year, and can't now do without it . It's like a security blanket. Even remee which I found uncomfortable at first is now my preferred sleep mask because it blocks light better than my regular cheapo mask. Maybe you would like Aurora iWinks since it is not a mask at all, but a band that sits up on the forehead. For that reason I do not hold a lot of hope for iWinks myself since if shines light down into your eyes and if you wear a mask the light would be blocked. But I'm going to get it in any case since I think dream tech is cool, and it's supposed to ship soon (October, November 2014 hopefully) and I want more lucids of course! And iWinks has EEG-based REM detection, after remee I will only purchase further dream tech with REM detection. I knew remee didn't have it and thought I could still work with it but so far it's a big bust. I still have some combinations and timing tweaks to try out, and it's decent as a non-audible alarm to (sometimes) wake you up for a WBTB but that wasn't the hope.

Thanks for posting this FryingMan - I checked out the site briefly yesterday. I've had some experience with EILD's both with light with a novadreamer (result=0) and using a vibrating alarm which got me quite a few lucids through direct incorporation into the dream. So I think - as you mentioned - this looks very promising. The key difference between a light and vibrating cue is that the light cue most often gets indirectly incorporated into the dream - its morphed into something different and vague and hard to recognize or train for (where every light source could potentially be a cue), whereas I found the majority of the vibration cues simply got directly incorporated as that - a vibration - especially as the daytime practice was identical (I wore the vibrating alarm on my ankle during the day and night). It pays to have the vibration occurring in an area where this would be unlikely to confused by the brain as something else. For example when on my ankle it mostly got directly incorporated as a the device vibrating on my ankle in the dream (as there are few other sensations in life which would cause my ankle to vibrate). However when I switched it to the ball of my foot, it got incorporated indirectly as my foot shivering in cold water - and I missed the cue and didn't get lucid - so placement of the vibration is important.

The thing I thought was alittle odd was that they were incorporating the vibration into the mask as well as the wrist band. In my experience (and I'm not a light sleeper I'd say I'm medium) the noise of the vibration would sometimes wake me up even with an airplug in and even with it on my ankle. Its difficult to make a vibrating device without some sort of noise, but I'd presume you could switch this off from the mask and just use the wrist band if you found this to be an issue.

In my experience you still need a degree of awareness to get the vibe incorporated into the dream as well - so I tended to use it only after a short (5min) wbtb early in the morning (around 4-5am). When I set the vibrating alarm off from the start of the night I'd just end up sleeping through it. But perhaps this device would allow a sort of ramping up in intensity of the cue - if you are in a deeper sleep its likely you'll need a stronger cue to get it incorporated into the dream than when you're in a lighter sleep.

The final hurdle is habituation to the signal - I think this is less likely if (outside of waking practice) it is only being presented during REM sleep. My problem using a vibrating alarm on a timer was that it got presented a lot during NREM and whilst it was effective for around 8 wks giving me regular lucids after that I seemed to become frustrating habituated to tuning the signal out. I've since worked out a way around this - but its interesting to think how prolonged use of these devices isn't often explored by their makers - most of the data comes from short term trials - excluding (or avoiding) the potential for habituation.

Anyway - beyond these thougths - I am really pleased to see someone is making a vibrating cue device with REM detection (the only previous one was the ill-fated PEST with the novadreamer), my feeling and experience is that a lot of people will have success good with this pretty easily - at least initially, as long as it is customisable.

cheers - T

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I've reviewed the campaign site again and the buckle is clearly only associated with the wristband. skip to 2:50 in the video where the woman takes off the mask with one hand: clearly a velcro based band.

Yep. You are 100% correct. I plunked down my money and hope with all my heart others will do the same. There are features of this device that set it head and shoulders (pun intended) above all the others. This, I feel, is the "real deal" - a device that will do what it claims.

Disclaimer: I have absolutely no connection or association with this project or any of the individuals involved in the research and development of this product.

DH

Originally Posted by FryingMan

And iWinks has EEG-based REM detection, after remee I will only purchase further dream tech with REM detection. I knew remee didn't have it and thought I could still work with it but so far it's a big bust. I still have some combinations and timing tweaks to try out, and it's decent as a non-audible alarm to (sometimes) wake you up for a WBTB but that wasn't the hope.

I backed the iWinks KS as well and I'm looking forward to it -- I'm hoping that since it is a headband and not a mask, I might find it more comfortable to sleep in than the bulky Remee. I also agree that REM detection is really important. The timer on Remee involves enough guesswork to be a real obstacle.

The vibration function of the Oneirics device seems promising too! As for habituation, though, Tlaloc raises some good points... I've had more than one promising technique go down the drain once my mind catches on and goes, "Yeah, whatever, I see what you did there."

The world needs realiable working EILD device. I believe that someday it will be done and it will start revolution in mass human thinking. That is what I stand for! The sooner the better...

So while I can't ask for support for the KS campaign (DV rules), let me say that it would be such a terrible shame if this product never saw the light of day. It would set back EILD for the public for years I think. They still have a ways to go to make the goals.

Checked it yesterday and looks good.
I found interesting how, in the age of EEG, they said "hey, we found out that traditional eye motion detection is more effective than the cheap EEGs out there everyone is using, so we are sticking with it"
To me that means "We want this to really work"
But I agree that all EILD based on giving the dreamer a cue is subject to a certain degree of habituation risk. I have no experience with EILD, so Tlaloc, you said you worked your way around habituation, could you share your experience on that?

In reading this thread, I can't help but feel a bit bad for LaBerge, or perhaps pity his woeful lack of business acumen.

I have one of LaBerge's DreamLights, which I bought over 20 (gasp!) years ago, and, aside from obvious technology updates like bluetooth and that "AI" system in the mask, this device does pretty much exactly what my DreamLight did. Moreso, from what I know about the ever-unfinished NovaDreamer 2, there likely will be no difference between the two. Even the trainer is merely an update of LaBerge's P.E.S.T. (though I plan on buying one of these, as my P.E.S.T. finally died after a decade of use, and I would like another -- this type of device is probably the single most valuable mechanical/electronic tool for LD'ing I've seen). And yes, the DreamLight communicated with the P.E.S.T., and, though I'm not sure this "AI" technology existed then, the DreamLight did at least track your REM cycles and offer other feedback... it probably would not have been a problem to communicate from your dream as well, though I don't think LaBerge went there.

I often wonder why LaBerge never filed patents for his stuff, or why he couldn't bring himself to put systems he designed years ago on the market first, opening doors to letting devices like Oneirics look new and revolutionary. I guess he likes to share.

I am impressed as well at the creator's cojones in actually citing LaBerge in his copy. Wait! ... Do I have this all wrong? FryingMan, do you know if your friend is simply putting LaBerge's forever-promised-never-delivered NovaDreamer 2 on the market for him, because LaBerge has proven completely inept at doing so himself? That would be very cool if it were the case!

Also, I feel obliged to add my usual sentence here saying that even this excellent device will not make you lucid. It will only tell you that it is time to become lucid. You still must do the work preparing your mind for lucidity and, of course, preparing your mind to notice the mask's signals and remember what that signal means. Contrary to the copy in the Oneirics sales material, this machine will not make you lucid simply by turning it on. If it works as advertized, Oneirics will be a great help in gaining lucidity, but it won't do the work for you. And no, a REM device will not control your dreams, period.

Also, given that the DreamLight, NovaDreamer, and assorted knockoffs have been around for decades with no revolution in becoming lucid, a pause must be taken to wonder why we don't all have one now as a matter of course... You'd think, if REM devices just made you lucid, that someone like Sony would have mass produced it by now -- Playstation Zz, perhaps -- and lucidity would have become commonplace by now (the perfect VR of LD'ing seems a pretty easy sell to me, once you've licked how to turn on the machine).

That said:

FryingMan, this post is not meant to disparage this device at all. I actually like it. I will definitely buy that trainer, should it come on market, and might even be tempted to replace my long-dead DreamLight with the mask as well. This is good stuff, and could be an excellent aid to lucidity. I guess I just noticed that it really isn't revolutionary, or even new, I remembered my annoyance at LaBerge (who loves making money, BTW) for never producing his inventions, I woke up a little ornery, and all that mixed together this morning, spurring me to put up the only (sort of) contrary post on this thread. I honestly hope that it does go to market and sells quite well, because any aid to lucidity will help the cause. I hope you will forgive my curmudgeonry!

Sageous, I agree with everything you've said. The fundamental feature set is that of the early LaBerge devices (although I didn't know that the REM detection in the LaBerge mask signaled the P.E.S.T. to do it's buzzing thing).

What's "new" is just creating it and offering it for sale *now*, in a modern package (low power bluetooth, smartphone configuration, etc.).

Everyone in the known lucid dreaming universe the slightest bit interested in EILD would RUN to buy the ND2. LaBerge is *really* missing the boat. Anyone who has spent any time in business knows the fundamental rule is: ship *now*, own the market, improve iteratively over time. He was (and perhaps still is before these and other devices like it will flood the market) in a unique position to totally dominate this market.

And yes, the hard work of getting lucid is up to you. I continue to be a bit doubtful of the claims of "take a LD newbie to LDing every night in just a few days." I wish he hadn't made that claim, as he would be held up to it. But he has a desire to be successful, and making perhaps exaggerated claims is rather commonplace in any market.

What has me really confused is: why there's aren't *more* REM detecting, multi-device solutions like Oneirics in the works or already on the market. Maybe the answer is that it's not all that easy to do, or that the results don't match the expectation?

But regardless, I really want this!

And I'd think the trainer itself would be much much much more useful together with the REM-detection. Otherwise isn't it just a remee (a simple timer) all over again? Maybe as noted above, vibration on the wrist/ankle is much more resistant to habituation/incorporating into a dream scene than are lights(?)

Originally Posted by FryingMan

What has me really confused is: why there's aren't *more* REM detecting, multi-device solutions like Oneirics in the works or already on the market. Maybe the answer is that it's not all that easy to do, or that the results don't match the expectation?

I think it's a little of both those things. I also think it might be something far more simple: the people who invent these things are generally not the same people who lucid dream.

LD'ing is still a fairly rarely practiced art, so perhaps it has just been odds that have prevented these devices from coming to market: It took a while for someone like your friend to come along with the relevant interest combined with the needed skills and resources to create a good product.

But regardless, I really want this!

I don't blame you. I dropped $1,200 that I really did not have on that DreamLight without hesitation; I hoped it would solve a major problem I was having, in that waking-life career activity had stifled my daytime work and nighttime focus. Funny thing -- and perhaps a cautionary tale -- though I used it steadily for a couple of years, and it worked as advertized, the DreamLight very rarely made me lucid -- I can't tell you how many times I saw its signal manifest in a dream only to, say, admire a brilliant sunset or watch a firetruck drive by; or, already lucid, said, "oh yeah, there's the DreamLight."

But yes, this can be an excellent tool.

And I'd think the trainer itself would be much much much more useful together with the REM-detection. Otherwise isn't it just a remee (a simple timer) all over again? Maybe as noted above, vibration on the wrist/ankle is much more resistant to habituation/incorporating into a dream scene than are lights(?)

Well, I see the trainer as an excellent reminder device for doing RC's, or just keeping your thoughts about LD'ing on a front burner all day. I assume it will have a timer that can be set to "random," so that you can be reminded to RC without having to schedule them, or fall into a rote habit doing them. I know there are other devices that do this, but there's something about using a distinctly LD'ing-oriented device that makes it simply work better.

I think LaBerge tested all sorts of stimuli (including vibrations) and ultimately found that light works best. That said, it wouldn't hurt to include a vibration in the signal, as that might help avoid misinterpreting it during the dream.

In terms of light being the best signal, I find that I very very rarely notice the remee lights in dreams, to my knowledge at least. I have it set to what I call the "nuclear" option: full brightness, going off every 5 minutes once the initial delay is hit, and I've seen it in dreams no more than 3 times in many months of use, every time fully consuming my vision (not being incorporated into subtle lights in the dream). I have not been entirely consistent, but I thought that I would be seeing the signal in dreams much much more frequently. Perhaps the brightest setting is too bright and I need to keep experimenting. I do recall thinking about/looking at one funny red light on the roof of a helicopter once in a dream so may be that was the remee -- very very subtle.

As noted by an earlier poster, the theoretical benefit of vibration is that it is rarely interpreted as anything else but what it is, at least on particular spots on the body.

I think until we get something that just makes you lucid easily (like maybe tACS) the general public wont be interested in spending their money AND having to do a lot of work in order to experience something that they consider "is not real" anyway.
BTW, something that makes myself suspicious about EILD devices is, why they never say X people have tried it and Y of them are having regular lucid dreams?
Anyways, IMHO it is a very good idea to combine the mask (which as said won't make you lucid) with the trainer (that helps a lot with day work)

Originally Posted by FryingMan

In terms of light being the best signal, I find that I very very rarely notice the remee lights in dreams, to my knowledge at least. I have it set to what I call the "nuclear" option: full brightness, going off every 5 minutes once the initial delay is hit, and I've seen it in dreams no more than 3 times in many months of use, every time fully consuming my vision (not being incorporated into subtle lights in the dream). I have not been entirely consistent, but I thought that I would be seeing the signal in dreams much much more frequently. Perhaps the brightest setting is too bright and I need to keep experimenting. I do recall thinking about/looking at one funny red light on the roof of a helicopter once in a dream so may be that was the remee -- very very subtle.

I'm assuming that the remee does not have REM detection built into it? That feature is critical in these devices, I think.

As noted by an earlier poster, the theoretical benefit of vibration is that it is rarely interpreted as anything else but what it is, at least on particular spots on the body.

Might be true; I'm just repeating what LaBerge learned in his experimenting. Keep in mind that our eyes are much more connected to the physical world than are our tactile senses, so there might be a chance that the vibration is not detected at all. Also, never underestimate your dreaming mind's ability to reinterpret even the most unique signals. That vibration could easily become an earthquake, your ankle being eaten by bugs, a dog humping your leg, or almost anything else -- we are very creative beings, especially when not lucid.

Originally Posted by dreambh

I think until we get something that just makes you lucid easily (like maybe tACS) the general public wont be interested in spending their money AND having to do a lot of work in order to experience something that they consider "is not real" anyway.
BTW, something that makes myself suspicious about EILD devices is, why they never say X people have tried it and Y of them are having regular lucid dreams?
Anyways, IMHO it is a very good idea to combine the mask (which as said won't make you lucid) with the trainer (that helps a lot with day work)

I'm hoping the mask WILL make me lucid when the signals are all concentrated throughout your REM instead of throwing a dart in the dark with a pre-set timer. And the Oneirics mask also has a buzzer, and also can communicate with your smartphone to play sounds, and will vary the notifications (the "AI" algorithm) until one is found that works, and will vary the notifications to prevent habituation (claimed at least).

Sageous: correct, remee (what a name they chose! Bordering on fraud.) does not detect REM: it operates only on an initial delay timer, and only has 2 preset delays, selecting a new time (say you feel fairly awake and want a slightly longer delay than what you already have selected) involves reprogramming the device by opening it, holding it up to your computer screen, and changing the settings on the remee web site. Pretty much useless for hitting dream times from bedtime, but hopeful as a alarm-DEILD device but I haven't really made a serious effort to use it as such. Alarm-DEILD generally is not for me because once I'm in my key dreaming time, if I wake up I'm usually up for the day.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I'm hoping the mask WILL make me lucid when the signals are all concentrated throughout your REM instead of throwing a dart in the dark with a pre-set timer.

Sorry, I meant ATM no EILD device will literally make you lucid, but just give you a cue, and you make yourself lucid when you recognize the cue. And that's why the trainer is a good addition, so that one trains easier to recognize the cue.
Anyway, I believe the clever think to do is expect a mild increase in the odds to get lucid (I think LaBerge said 10% with his masks?) and not expect a magic solution (which of course I know you don't expect, FM)

(Hate posting from my phone!)

Apologies if this reply is a bit warped - just returned from my kids school disco! (If you're a parent you'll know these things are often loaded with subsidised drink from the adults!).

Thought I'd jam another 2cents in the slot as its an interesting thread. Regarding incorporation of stimuli into dreams - again theres been a reasonable amount of research into this - both inside and outside of lucid dreaming, infact if you go outside of lucid dreaming research theres a lot more information. Anyway Hearne (who invented the 'original' dream machine) did quite a lot of research on this, and some of its really interesting. He was trying to get people lucid through incorporation of stimuli. Anyway he tried various stimuli - small samples (his Liverpool uni Phd) so maybe not that scientific but still of value - he tried smells, and light and tape recordings and tactile stimulation. He found that a water spray to the body gave the greatest INCORPORATION into the dream scene when applied in REM sleep - but resulted in zero lucidity. The reason being the spray got indirectly incorporated - people had dreams of people spitting on them, raining on them, urine - all sorts of odd incorporations of water but never direct enough to make the dreamer lucid. He settled on electro-tactile stimulation of the wrist in a series of pulses as a better stimulus - less total incorporation but when it was incorporated it was much more likely that the dreamer recognized the stimuli and became lucid.

that seems to me to be the key thing - just getting the stimuli incorporated isn't enough. Its as much, or more, about how directly the cue is incorporated into the dream.

As to my own experience with the vibrating alarm, and also harkening back to Herne and La Berges experiences with vibration - 2 days training is more than enough in daytime practice. After that - you're set, it really is that straight forward. From using the vibration on my ankle the only confusions I really had was once or twice I felt the vibration in a dream and mistoke it for a vibrating cell, or I dreamt I was programming the clock and it was vibrating (a sort of FA). But 80% of the time it was (and is) directly incorporated. Well - to qualify - sometimes the brain changes the vibration length or adds sound - so occasionally you can become lucid just by noticing a difference in the type of vibration. La Berge had good success with vibration induced lucid dreamer but didn't go further due to 'technical issues' at the time. Herne developed his machine but it never went commercial.

I think this group look like they've on to a good thing. So perhaps the time for a vibrating cue really has come. Regarding the habituation issue.....

Tlaloc, you said you worked your way around habituation, could you share your experience on that?

hopefully it might not be an issue with a REM detecting based device. I am happy to discuss this if you are interested dreambh - you could pm me. In short in my experience (a sample of one I'm afraid!) you need to perform some sort of activity whenever you encounter the signal - awake or asleep - as Sageous alluded to - using an EILD is not a passive experience, become passive and you will lose the ability to become lucid once the novelty of the stimulus wears off.

There was some interesting discussion in the comments section of KS on whether the company is legit. And they also mention the results o their tests, I think 85% of subjects got first LD ever in 2 weeks, and 80% of LDers doubled their rate.
Looks promising!

I believe it's completely legit. There's another update coming with more pictures from production. Of course, one can't really know until the product is sitting in your hands.

Originally Posted by dreambh

There was some interesting discussion in the comments section of KS on whether the company is legit. And they also mention the results o their tests, I think 85% of subjects got first LD ever in 2 weeks, and 85% of LDers doubled their rate.
Looks promising!

Promising yes, but not really telling. I wouldn't mind seeing the stats on the subjects' second and third LD's. A powerful placebo effect can accompany tests of devices like this. How the machine works after the effect wears off would be a good piece of information to share, especially if the LD rates remain high.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Promising yes, but not really telling. I wouldn't mind seeing the stats on the subjects' second and third LD's. A powerful placebo effect can accompany tests of devices like this. How the machine works after the effect wears off would be a good piece of information to share, especially if the LD rates remain high.

Yes, you're right we would need to know about more than the first LD to know the it really woks on "novices", I myself got my first LD a couple of days after reading about LaBerge's work, so I know determining the cause of a single LD is, well, impossible?
Still, knowing that it has doubled the rate of most of most LDers that tested it say a lot about its efficacy.