Choline for Lucid Dreaming?

[DreamWolfHorse]

So I did some research suggesting that Choline (supplement, not to be confused with the deadly gas) could be used as an aid in lucid dreaming. I've tried everything and nothing's worked out thus far. Any advice on how affective Choline alone is for LDing or how much to take?

[Dthoughts]

It's a little complex. I recommend reading Yuschak: Advanced LDing: The power of supplements. I believe there's a 12 page around somewhere. You only need to read the first chapter. It's a very accesible book if ur not allergic to brain science. Yuschak will explain it better than I can. I don't necessarily agree with his conclusions but the method is tried and tested. One thing you have to keep in mind is that Alpha-GPC as opposed to CDP-choline is short-acting and goes straight to the brain. The CDP-Choline has a longer incubation time and is most useful to take at bedtime. Alpha-GPC is for WBTB attempts.

[FOATL]

So I did some research suggesting that Choline (supplement, not to be confused with the deadly gas) could be used as an aid in lucid dreaming. I've tried everything and nothing's worked out thus far. Any advice on how affective Choline alone is for LDing or how much to take? Choline Bitartrate alone rarely does anything.....Dthoughts is right, you should read Yuschaks. I have the book, its really good..... All your cholines, the Alpga GPC, or CDP, even bitartate, should be taken at WBTB time, because non-REM sleep is anti-cholineric.....so if you take it right at bedtime your body is just going to break it down if you're not in REM phase.... theres plenty of info online, as well as in here, about when to take any form of choline. I've done alot of personal experiments with supplements myself.....before I even read the book.... from MY experiences, and i know this works for me, but everybodys different........ i recommend Choline Bitatrate about 600 mg, which would be about 2 pills, taken with 6 to 8 mg of Galantamine at WBTB. IF YOU'RE DOING A WILD, take this shit right when you first wake up! If you doing a MILD or DILD, take it right when laying back down... Bitartrate to me is better than AlPHA GPC because it seems to have a longer half-life.....CDP, eh, seems to be somewhere in the middle..... Choline by itself will do nothing for your dreams if: you take it before bed or you take it without Galantamine Galantamine will keep the choline from breaking down, but you also need something to guard the Galantamine, which would be vitamin b5.... take the b5 BEFORE bed, because if you wait to take it with Galantamine during a wbtb, you will possibly be too stimulated to get back to sleep. take the b5 before bed, that will give you the Acetyl...for your Acetylcholinesterase with Galantamine as the inhibitor

[FryingMan]

Yuschak describes Alpha-GPC as having a 3-hour to peak blood plasma delay, while choline bitartrate is much much faster (45 minutes?) so that contradicts some of the info above. But yes, definitely read Yuschak before taking supplements, and always start slowly, with minimal doses and with each supplement in isolation, before moving on to higher doses and multiple supplements in combination.

[FOATL]

Yuschak describes Alpha-GPC as having a 3-hour to peak blood plasma delay, while choline bitartrate is much much faster (45 minutes?) so that contradicts some of the info above. Dude, if you read my post, it clearly says...... Bitartrate to me is better than AlPHA GPC because it seems to have a longer half-life.... Keywords, "TO ME". That means, for me, in my opinion, from MY EXPERIENCES. I have Yuschak's book. I know what it says. For you to point out a contradiction between whats quoted in a book and what someone offers as personal information for helping someone is rather crass. Get a life.

[Dthoughts]

This post seems to be referring to me. Yuschak describes Alpha-GPC as having a 3-hour to peak blood plasma delay, while choline bitartrate is much much faster (45 minutes?) so that contradicts some of the info above. True. Bitartrate (and likely CDP accordong to our matey Yuschak) is peaked much faster. CDP is actually able to cross the BBB. Bitartrate theoretically only acts as a buffer so that choline never runs out in the brain. CDP and Alpha-GPC unlike bitartrate actually seem to overclock the brain so to speak. Alpha-GPC imo can be taken before sleep and CDP in a WBTB attempt. Taken with Galantamine in a WBTB should produce a WILD quite easily unless something else is missing. i find GPC quite interesting for extensive tweaking and extending rem-sleep.

[FryingMan]

Dude, if you read my post, it clearly says...... Keywords, "TO ME". That means, for me, in my opinion, from MY EXPERIENCES. I have Yuschak's book. I know what it says. For you to point out a contradiction between whats quoted in a book and what someone offers as personal information for helping someone is rather crass. Get a life. You, my friend, clearly need to take a chill pill (maybe some choline haha). Your experiences are of course your own, but I will continue to base my advice to others on the scientific information offered in Yuschak's book, where it is stated clearly that Alpha-GPC has a delayed effect curve, and he specifically recommends mixing choline bitartrate with alpha-gpc to get multiple choline peaks extending the window of lucidity. If you want to yell at somebody for pointing out published information in the seminal work in this field that differs from your personal experience, go write Yuschak a nasty letter. I will continue pointing out when information posted contradicts a very well thought of published work. Absolutely nothing in my post reflects poorly on you personally, so you have nothing to be flying off the handle about. In terms of getting lifes, maybe you should learn not to get a bug up your butt in situations like this.

[gab]

Get a life. That is so not needed. Please.

[FOATL]

You, my friend, clearly need to take a chill pill (maybe some choline haha). Your experiences are of course your own, but I will continue to base my advice to others on the scientific information offered in Yuschak's book, where it is stated clearly that Alpha-GPC has a delayed effect curve, and he specifically recommends mixing choline bitartrate with alpha-gpc to get multiple choline peaks extending the window of lucidity. You're giving "advice" to people based on something thats free online that people can read for themselves.....yet you knock me for giving advice which is based on personal experience. Now, boys and girls, which type of informal fallacy is THIS ONE.....??? If you want to "base your advice on information from someones book", okay, well you can regurgitate all the info from someone else you want...better yet, why even post.. just drop a link to the book, if all you're gonna do is drone someone elses work. If thats how you choose to help people, so be it. I'm not knocking you. But to knock someone else, for "basing THEIR advice from information from personal experience", is crass, very crass. Like I said before, I have Yushacks book, anybody with a keyboard can get the pdf online, and anybody interested enough in how supplements work can google it themselves without the need for anyone copying and pasting lines from print. Now.....practitioners in this art, or this science, like any other field will often have intelligence which contradicts a published work. Contradiction doesn't necessarily mean untruth. A class act knows how to present the possibility of a contradiction without any inference of a negative connotation or discredit. You might as well not even have posted.

[FOATL]

That is so not needed. Please. Before Fryingman wants to jump in to discredit someone else whose trying to help.... all he had to say was "no offense", and no offense would be taken.

[gab]

Before Fryingman wants to jump in to discredit someone else whose trying to help.... all he had to say was "no offense", and no offense would be taken. He didn't discredit you in any way. You are stating your opinion based on your experience. He pointed out that it's different than the study. I think it's only fair for all those that will try to follow some instructions, so they know if they pick any particular process, if it is based on individual experience, or a wide study. Same as is the issue with WILDing before prior sleep. If someone says it's ok to do it, which is contrary to what 99.9% of people are saying, we have obligation to point it out. It may work sometimes for some small percentage of people, if conditions are right. But it would be futile to pick that approach to WILDing as standard. And "regurgitate" ? C'moooon! Ok, back to topic.

[spellbee2]

From the forum rules, with special focus on part 1: IMPORTANT THINGS TO REMEMBER WHEN POSTING: 1. An attack on your ideas is not necessarily an attack on you. I know it's not easy, but please keep this in mind because this is how fights break out unintentionally. 2. When uncertain about being attacked, give the benefit of the doubt. Keep in mind how difficult it is to convey emotion over the Internet; unless it's glaringly evident that a poster means you harm, it's quite possible none was intended. (Not all of us like decorating our posts with smilies in order to take any possibly-perceived edge off.) Ask for clarification if necessary. 3. When replying to someone in order to express your differing opinion, show respect and tolerance for that user; if you disagree with him or her, state why. Do not simply denounce the poster and ridicule his or her ideas. Keep in mind he or she likely believes with the same passion as you. Please keep this discussion civil and helpful, especially since it's in an on-topic forum. Otherwise, this'll get real messy real quick... Okay, now back on topic.

[FryingMan]

FOATL, there is a thread in another part of the forum called "Rand and rave, cry and complain," please make use of it. In this part of the forum we maintain civil, mature discussions. If you can't maintain that standard, just don't post here. You've taken offense for my offering published information that points out information that counters your personal experience as an attack on you, where no offense was initially offered. It doesn't take writing "no offense" for sensible people to see that none is offered. And besides, most people write "no offense" before writing something offensive, so it's a phrase that doesn't have much practical use. There's only one person doing any attacking here, and it's clear to me and the other readers just who that is. So calm down, and quit the personal stuff. It's good that you know Yuschak. Many people don't, so I will continue to refer readers to his work and to quote his findings and recommendations. If that infuriates you, and it very clearly does for some inexplicable reason, go blow off steam somewhere else.

[FOATL]

FOATL, there is a thread in another part of the forum called "Rand and rave, cry and complain," please make use of it. In this part of the forum we maintain civil, mature discussions. If you can't maintain that standard, just don't post here. You've taken offense for my offering published information that points out information that counters your personal experience as an attack on you, where no offense was initially offered. It doesn't take writing "no offense" for sensible people to see that none is offered. And besides, most people write "no offense" before writing something offensive, so it's a phrase that doesn't have much practical use. There's only one person doing any attacking here, and it's clear to me and the other readers just who that is. So calm down, and quit the personal stuff. It's good that you know Yuschak. Many people don't, so I will continue to refer readers to his work and to quote his findings and recommendations. If that infuriates you, and it very clearly does for some inexplicable reason, go blow off steam somewhere else. Well, with everything being said, I guess I owe you Fryingman an apology. I took offense to your post behind mine, and i guess I shouldnt have. So for that, my apologies.