Thread: What is your definition of Freedom - Is a Utopia possible

Global Utopia? Never.

However one day I think it will be possible, and may well exist in large pockets such as entire towns, in none of our lifetimes though. Utopias may well have existed in the past, but since the 1960's everything has been going downhill, it will be at least 2150 before we return to our 1950's standards of society, if ever.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Global Utopia? Never.

However one day I think it will be possible, and may well exist in large pockets such as entire towns, in none of our lifetimes though. Utopias may well have existed in the past, but since the 1960's everything has been going downhill, it will be at least 2150 before we return to our 1950's standards of society, if ever.

Sort of assumes the 1950s was the essence of everything good in the world.

So ancient people who grew their own crops to feed their family, are in capable of philosophizing about life? How then would an anthropologist explain the creation of religions?

Where do you think all the music, song, dances, art, stories and even rituals (like a wedding that we still find meaningful today) come from? It came from the people: the hunters, the fishermen, the farmers, the peasants and everyone else who soiled their hands with the earth. I'm not talking about pop music we have today created for money. Imagine a time before money, what motivated people to sing, dance, create art and tell stories? Because they wanted to, because they can. Because they think, feel, and share what they think and feel with others.

You just said that capitalization was necessary for these activities, but then you referenced peasants versus Aristotle and Plato. The ancient philosophers still needed food, water, shelter and clothing. If they had all this free time in the academies to think, it was because peasants and slaves gave them the free time.

If everyone in America had a profession, the economy would crash. There would be no one left working at grocery stores, corner stores, malls, fast food places. There would be no one left to process meat at the factory, pick your florida oranges, or deliver any goods anywhere.

Capitalism demands lower income peasants to slave away for the rich. This is not situation that enriches the human mind.

Originally Posted by juroara

So ancient people who grew their own crops to feed their family, are in capable of philosophizing about life? How then would an anthropologist explain the creation of religions?

Religions carried out by a certain caste which hardly worked and would dictate the holy texts of their religions to the masses because they could not read or write. If you had questions about life, you would go to a holy man and he would tell you what it is. If you were a peasant you hardly knew what was happening outside of your village. Even in history you see that text for common individuals during these times is sparse if at all existent. It was only until the late 20th century that historians actually tried to unearth historical interpretations given by common individuals. So no, I don't think that many farmers/peasants/laborers were philosophizing about life and the meaning to it. Nor did they care much for things that didn't progress their immedate well-being.

Originally Posted by juroara

Where do you think all the music, song, dances, art, stories and even rituals (like a wedding that we still find meaningful today) come from? It came from the people: the hunters, the fishermen, the farmers, the peasants and everyone else who soiled their hands with the earth. I'm not talking about pop music we have today created for money. Imagine a time before money, what motivated people to sing, dance, create art and tell stories? Because they wanted to, because they can. Because they think, feel, and share what they think and feel with others.

Oh please, stop with the naivety. First we are discussing philosophical questions, the art of letters and developed technology. This individual I was responding to thought that we can create space worthy rockets even if we get rid of money, not tying rawhide skin over a circle and pounding on it. Peasants did not create "art" in the manner of paintings and poetry and I challenge you to show me several who did. Art was from patronage from wealthy individuals and it was only until industrialization in which authors could mass produce their works for the common people. Do you think a peasant would roam the library of Alexandria, looking at the scrolls every night in order to fruitlessly gain more knowledge to try and escape his caste? If you wish to call dancing and music an art form then by all means your subjective interpretation of it is no better or no worse then mine. My personal taste is one in which I would rather gaze on the beauty that is "The Birth of Venus" then to hear some peasant strum on a lute.

Originally Posted by juroara

You just said that capitalization was necessary for these activities, but then you referenced peasants versus Aristotle and Plato. The ancient philosophers still needed food, water, shelter and clothing. If they had all this free time in the academies to think, it was because peasants and slaves gave them the free time.

Yes, slaves were seen as capital. Is it right? No. Is it just? No. Do I agree with it? No. But is that what it was seen as? Yes.

Originally Posted by juroara

If everyone in America had a profession, the economy would crash. There would be no one left working at grocery stores, corner stores, malls, fast food places. There would be no one left to process meat at the factory, pick your florida oranges, or deliver any goods anywhere.

And working at corner stores, malls and factories isn't a profession? How are you using the term "profession?"

Originally Posted by juroara

Capitalism demands lower income peasants to slave away for the rich. This is not situation that enriches the human mind.

Please, lower income? By what interpretation do you utilize that? If you wish to use this title of "peasants" on the modern day "working class" then you should know that the standard of living has been upward since the freeing of the marketplace. Now it could be better. More people could profit from it but how this can happen is for another topic. Suffice to say I don't think we have what can be called "Capitalism" in the modern world. It is more free then serfdom but it isn't Capitalism.

I'm sorry I can't agree with anything you just said, so arguing would just be a waste of time.

I have an idea I'd like to throw at you guys

The working title is Progressive Democracy or Localized Democracy, essentially I think one of the problems with democracy on such a wide scale is it creates a disconnection between voters and their representatives. So lets start at the basics: town hall. Eliminate mayors and legislatures and set up town councils where anyone who shows up gets a voice and a vote. Towns that are too large can be subdivided into multiple neighborhoods until it's small enough that people aren't overcrowded. The rules are simple: They sit in a circle, everyone waits for a long period of time in silence between speakers (Something we should have learned from the Native Americans), and everyone's vote is equal. A representative is elected to meet in the next largest collective, which in most cases would be a county but in more populated areas would be a town hall. The same rules apply as before, though I haven't completely decided how to make things fair population wise. Perhaps an electorate system could take place where each person represented counts as a vote in the hands of their councilor. Anyways, a representative is elected out this council, as well, and he meets in the next highest order and so on. You could have national presidents to vote on but I don't see the point, I think the guy your voting on should be someone you know and can have time to get to know. It should be someone your community trusts to represent your views when it comes to matters that concern the area, and to vote the right way when it comes to picking the right guy to meet in the next higher order. All voting would need to be completely transparent and identifiable by the lower orders.

Everything in society seems to be top-down: CEOs and owners control companies and pick everyone that decides everything and they pick all the employees, and we supposedly elect individuals that decide everything and fill government with people they think is best. I find the best results come from listening to the individual parts. For instance if you want your company to run more efficiently you don't hire some outside observer with a degree in bullshit, you ask your experienced employees for ideas and then listen to them. The best way to understand what sort of diet and lifestyle is best for you is not by reading a bunch of books on the subject and following other people's philosophies, it's by listening to your body and responding to its needs.

Human beings still unconsciously hold this concept that they are intelligent brains trapped within animal bodies. Most of us still don't understand the connection between mind and body. In much the same way, our government does not consider us to be worth listening to, either.

So what is your vision of a Utopia?
Do you think that we already live in a Utopia?
It isn't about political systems, ie. capitalism vs. fascism, regarding the right to build a house in the watershed. And yes, the very act of building a house in the watershed does harm people, not just the chemicals. Like I said, it doesn't matter what system of government a country has right now, they still don't allow one to live in the watersheds because it is just dirty.
As far as the man that was tied to a tree. We knew he was guilty, he knew he was guilty, we knew he knew, he knew we knew, and we all knew that the other knew that we knew. The only thing to do to protect ourselves was tie him to a tree until we could think of what to do with him. You must understand that this was about thirty miles from the nearest road. This isn't fascism, this is protecting the women and children. Any family person would do the same.

As far as a family is concerned, you would let your children do what they want unless they are a danger to themselves or another. Since they may not have the knowledge to keep themselves safe, you tell them not to cross the road by themselves, or not to touch the stove because it is hot. THis isn't fascism.

The chief does not sit there giving orders. A chief never tells anybody else what to do. The whole tribe decides what to do. The chief leads the battles also. The chief is not an elite. The whole tribe knows that in order to survive they must follow the buffalo. The whole tribe has a council and the council lasts until every single person participating agrees. It isn't even a majority rule, it has to be every single person in agreement. And everybody in the tribe participates, if you decide that you would rather go pick flowers than go to the council, that is your right, but decisions will be made without you there. That is great if you trust the council, if you don't then you should go to it and participate. There is no place for fascism here. The tribe rules itself and enforces its decisions itself. The Indians have always lived democratically long before the Greeks came up with a concept for it. And with true and equal representation to boot. Each person was their own representative. No need to elect representatives.

Yes, the internet is a luxury, but it is free for me since I don't pay for it. I cannot afford to, since I have an alternative lifestyle. Our over-population has not brought us the internet. And there is a force that counters entropy and keeps it in check.

Of course, we cannot go back in time, and the Indians also didn't do everything great. For example, if somebody comes and lives with the tribe but just parasites off of them, the Indians would just kill him rather than stop feeding him. I would rather stop feeding them instead of killing them.

I have little patience humoring people who have no ideas of their own but rather misunderstand other's ideas in order to attack them. So what are YOUR ideas of a Utopia? I think any Utopia would need to address the common ways people suffer, and helping minimize the suffering. It seems that classic examples from the dreams of humanity includes eliminating poverty, eliminating disease, and having equal rights and justice for everybody, and a strong ecology and making decisions on the seventh generation principle.

The easiest and fastest method for achieving this is to have everybody on board. If the majority are not on board, then we will have to wait until they are. Or else a fascist state will be temporarily necessary. Unfortunately, fascist governments do not like to give up their power after they have affected the change they were meant to. I hate fascism, so I am not advocating it, but sometimes people in their stupidity need and ask for fascism. I had lived in a fascist community where there was a silent figurehead around which we all had gathered, and a leader in charge which gave the orders, supposedly coming from the silent one. The silent one broke his silence and the fascist leader's power was taken away and she left after stealing a bunch of money. Everybody was overjoyed when she left and stopped working and just celebrated. The figurehead explained that if we didn't work then we wouldn't be able to have anything to eat, and so we should work voluntarily or else we need a fascist leader. With freedom comes responsibility. If you are not responsible for yourself and your community then you don't deserve to be free. That is my whole point. That is why children are not so free to do whatever they want, because they are not responsible enough, the parents are responsible for them. When a child is grown then he can make his own decisions and be free. That is what the teens are all about. Teen-agers are rebellious because they are trying to assert their own independence from their family. It is time to leave the nest.

So the first step is to agree on what we would want as a humanity for a Utopia. We may have to wait until most of humanity destroys itself.
The second step is to agree on steps to take us in that direction. Already fiat currency has failed and is in its death throes. It will be interesting to see what kind of new economics arises from the void left behind. This may take a little while because the truth of this is hidden so that the powers that be can try to hold onto some semblance of order and authority, but it has already crashed globally. This is a great opportunity once everyone realizes this fact and doesn't panic.

I think that if humanity makes it through this bottle-neck of environmental destruction/over-population/economic crash with no recovery/and global corporate fasism then many steps will be taken automatically and naturally. If you have any suggestions on a Utopian vision besides the current state of affairs then let's hear it! Let's hear some good ideas or just any ideas would be great.

But the plain and simple truth is that a Utopia is not possible unless everyone is responsible for themselves and the effects of their actions.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

So what is your vision of a Utopia?
Do you think that we already live in a Utopia?

No, I don't think we have a utopia. My version of a utopian would basically be centered on the non-aggression principle.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

It isn't about political systems, ie. capitalism vs. fascism, regarding the right to build a house in the watershed.

Well fascism and capitalism are really economic systems. Fascism maybe a little of both an economic and social system. It's kind of gray. You're right though, economic systems don't really discuss rights, it's a social issue. Well I consider it a social issue because if you say political then people start thinking that it involves the state and people don't get their rights from the state.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

And yes, the very act of building a house in the watershed does harm people, not just the chemicals. Like I said, it doesn't matter what system of government a country has right now, they still don't allow one to live in the watersheds because it is just dirty.

You will have to show how the simple act of building and not dumping of chemicals harms people.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

As far as the man that was tied to a tree. We knew he was guilty, he knew he was guilty, we knew he knew, he knew we knew, and we all knew that the other knew that we knew.

Awesome. Guilty until proven guilty.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The only thing to do to protect ourselves was tie him to a tree until we could think of what to do with him. You must understand that this was about thirty miles from the nearest road. This isn't fascism, this is protecting the women and children. Any family person would do the same.

Don't rationalize your debased sense of justice by pawning it off on what another would do. Take responsibility for your actions.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

As far as a family is concerned, you would let your children do what they want unless they are a danger to themselves or another. Since they may not have the knowledge to keep themselves safe, you tell them not to cross the road by themselves, or not to touch the stove because it is hot. THis isn't fascism.

Well just before you were saying that fascism is like having children. Some people need it and need to be told what to do...like children. Now you are saying it isn't fascism. You will excuse me if I am confused by what you are trying to say.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The chief does not sit there giving orders. A chief never tells anybody else what to do. The whole tribe decides what to do. The chief leads the battles also. The chief is not an elite.

What native people are you attributing this quality to because I think it is ridiculously naive.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The whole tribe knows that in order to survive they must follow the buffalo. The whole tribe has a council and the council lasts until every single person participating agrees.

Everyone on the council agrees. You are making it sound like Native Americans had direct democracy.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

It isn't even a majority rule, it has to be every single person in agreement.

I highly doubt that there is 100% agreement in all things concerning the tribe.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

And everybody in the tribe participates, if you decide that you would rather go pick flowers than go to the council, that is your right, but decisions will be made without you there. That is great if you trust the council, if you don't then you should go to it and participate. There is no place for fascism here. The tribe rules itself and enforces its decisions itself. The Indians have always lived democratically long before the Greeks came up with a concept for it. And with true and equal representation to boot. Each person was their own representative. No need to elect representatives.

Really I would love to see these examples of B.C. Indian tribes carrying out democracy. The Athenian polis was the example of actual representation. It seems you are implying that the Athenians elected officials to represent them...they didn't. It was a direct democracy.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Yes, the internet is a luxury, but it is free for me since I don't pay for it. I cannot afford to, since I have an alternative lifestyle. Our over-population has not brought us the internet. And there is a force that counters entropy and keeps it in check.

I never said over-population brought the internet. I said the advent of the Industrial Revolution brought with it the capacity to support the population explosion in Europe. The internet is a distant result of the Industrial Revolution. Please read what I said more carefully.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Of course, we cannot go back in time, and the Indians also didn't do everything great. For example, if somebody comes and lives with the tribe but just parasites off of them, the Indians would just kill him rather than stop feeding him. I would rather stop feeding them instead of killing them.

What is this comment in relation to?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I have little patience humoring people who have no ideas of their own but rather misunderstand other's ideas in order to attack them. So what are YOUR ideas of a Utopia? I think any Utopia would need to address the common ways people suffer, and helping minimize the suffering. It seems that classic examples from the dreams of humanity includes eliminating poverty, eliminating disease, and having equal rights and justice for everybody, and a strong ecology and making decisions on the seventh generation principle.

I've commented on this at the beginning.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The easiest and fastest method for achieving this is to have everybody on board. If the majority are not on board, then we will have to wait until they are.

What happened to the tribe mentality of having everyone agree? Now it's just a majority?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Or else a fascist state will be temporarily necessary. Unfortunately, fascist governments do not like to give up their power after they have affected the change they were meant to. I hate fascism, so I am not advocating it, but sometimes people in their stupidity need and ask for fascism.

Ah so only you are fit to live beyond a fascist government. Everyone else is too stupid to do so.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I had lived in a fascist community where there was a silent figurehead around which we all had gathered, and a leader in charge which gave the orders, supposedly coming from the silent one. The silent one broke his silence and the fascist leader's power was taken away and she left after stealing a bunch of money. Everybody was overjoyed when she left and stopped working and just celebrated. The figurehead explained that if we didn't work then we wouldn't be able to have anything to eat, and so we should work voluntarily or else we need a fascist leader. With freedom comes responsibility. If you are not responsible for yourself and your community then you don't deserve to be free. That is my whole point. That is why children are not so free to do whatever they want, because they are not responsible enough, the parents are responsible for them. When a child is grown then he can make his own decisions and be free. That is what the teens are all about. Teen-agers are rebellious because they are trying to assert their own independence from their family. It is time to leave the nest.

I think you are engaging in ridiculous paternalism in order to rationalize iron fisted delusions.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

But the plain and simple truth is that a Utopia is not possible unless everyone is responsible for themselves and the effects of their actions.

You say that but then you think society is too stupid to be responsible for themselves. Where is your premise in this outlook? You think that everyone will somehow become super-smart or super-caring after a global disaster, see the errors of their ways and ascribe to what you are proposing?

No, I think that humanity will go the way of dinosaurs with Utopia being an unattainable dream. But the first step to realizing dreams is to at least have them.
The Indians I were referring to are the Sioux and specifically the Lakota, though I assume all of the tribes in the modern U.S. were free. Yes, they did have direct representation, and it was natural to them, not some radical concept.

Ah so only you are fit to live beyond a fascist government. Everyone else is too stupid to do so.

No, not only me. Most people are fit to to live beyond a fascist government, with a little education. Most people are not ready for anarchy though.

I highly doubt that there is 100% agreement in all things concerning the tribe.

I know! It sounds almost Utopian! If you get the chance you should attend an Indian council just to witness it and learn something about consensus decision making and tribal life.

What happened to the tribe mentality of having everyone agree? Now it's just a majority?

Touche. Some by strict party platform ties to social clubs etc. I would say that Utopian societies will have to start kind of reclusively, existing unknown to those who are not ready for Utopia, kind of like how it is now already. It is not that the collapse of the economy and widespread famine are going to usher in Utopia, but the only survivors will be those living in the existing Utopian societies and a few rare survivors who stumble upon a Utopian society and are helped by them. Of course, there will be a rogue military and all kind of dystopian movements going on also, so it is hard to say.

Well just before you were saying that fascism is like having children. Some people need it and need to be told what to do...like children.

This is an example of the point going over your head and you not understanding what I am saying. My whole point is that it is not fascist to ensure the survival of your community from dangerous rogue people who threaten to harm your community. YOU are the one claiming that it is fascist to protect the community from someone who thinks that Utopia means personal freedom without caring about others. I am saying that it is NOT fascist to forbid your children to play with matches.

Of course, if a fascist state exists, it is the fault of the people who let it exist, who give it power over them. If they took back their power they would have to also take back their responsibility.

Really I would love to see these examples of B.C. Indian tribes carrying out democracy.

You don't have to look only to Indian tribes. You can look to the Australian aborigines. See, to us, democracy is a concept. It is a social/political concept that evolved out of not being satisfied with feudalism and monarchy, etc. But before all that, if you take any group of humans and put them in a situation where they have to work together to survive, they will have a direct democracy. The natural human in his natural environment will be happy, free, and democratic.

In the example of the asshole who got tied to a tree, it took us over a week to come to an agreement on what to do with him. Some of the more compassionate ones wanted to free him and hope that he learned his lesson, some of the more angry people wanted to chop his pecker off, others wanted to escort him back to society and turn him in, others didn't want the police involved or even to know about the community, others wanted to keep him tied up and feed him psychedelic drugs in order for him to see how he hurt people etc. Everyone took turns talking, we listened to each other's concerns. We ended up including him in the council. It was very emotional and crazy. He ended up being so remorseful and it healed him. He told us his whole life story and admitted other shameful things he had done before but had not gotten caught. He actually grew a conscience through that week. The woman he violated ended up forgiving him and now he still lives there and now has a wife, kids, and grandkids now.

Anyway, instead of arguing a out Indians why don't you learn about their way of life? Their way of life used to be very Utopian. Especially in the Pacific Northwest!! They didn't even have to be nomadic or agriculture! They had so much leisure time, moreso than most other Indians in the New World.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

No, I think that humanity will go the way of dinosaurs with Utopia being an unattainable dream. But the first step to realizing dreams is to at least have them.
The Indians I were referring to are the Sioux and specifically the Lakota, though I assume all of the tribes in the modern U.S. were free. Yes, they did have direct representation, and it was natural to them, not some radical concept.

So is the Lakota Indians an example of Pre-Greek democracy?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

No, not only me. Most people are fit to to live beyond a fascist government, with a little education. Most people are not ready for anarchy though.

I'm trying to understand where you are drawing the distinction between who does and doesn't deserve to live in fascism. It seems to be that everyone you agreed with doesn't but everyone you disagree with does. Is this correct?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I know! It sounds almost Utopian! If you get the chance you should attend an Indian council just to witness it and learn something about consensus decision making and tribal life.

Having a council make decisions does not infer 100% agreement nor does it infer that a person in power has a mandate from the people who put him/her there that everything they choose is in agreement.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Touche. Some by strict party platform ties to social clubs etc. I would say that Utopian societies will have to start kind of reclusively, existing unknown to those who are not ready for Utopia, kind of like how it is now already. It is not that the collapse of the economy and widespread famine are going to usher in Utopia, but the only survivors will be those living in the existing Utopian societies and a few rare survivors who stumble upon a Utopian society and are helped by them. Of course, there will be a rogue military and all kind of dystopian movements going on also, so it is hard to say.

But why assume that these 'societies,' if they even exist today, will be unphased by the collapse of the economy and famine? You seem to be thinking they will be sheltered. Why is that?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

This is an example of the point going over your head and you not understanding what I am saying. My whole point is that it is not fascist to ensure the survival of your community from dangerous rogue people who threaten to harm your community. YOU are the one claiming that it is fascist to protect the community from someone who thinks that Utopia means personal freedom without caring about others. I am saying that it is NOT fascist to forbid your children to play with matches.
Of course, if a fascist state exists, it is the fault of the people who let it exist, who give it power over them. If they took back their power they would have to also take back their responsibility.

What is going over my head?
You stated:

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Some people deserve and need to live under fascist rule. Until people can be responsible for themselves, fascism will be an unfortunate necessity. If you don't like fascism, then be responsible for yourself. Obviously you don't have any children.

What am I incorrectly inferring from such a statement? You believe that some people deserve and should live under fascism specifically those who cannot be responsible for themselves. Children cannot be responsible for themselves, therefore you think children should live under fascist rule. Thus the comment "Obviously you don't have any children" indicating that I have such a negative thought about paternalism, I must not have children because I don't condone it. You have yet to show how the simple act of building on a watershed without dumping chemicals into the water (something you said didn't matter because the bigger issue was the building) is causing actual harm to individuals and I say individuals because you can't hurt a "community." If you were just using it for shorthand and really meant a set of individuals then omit this last point. I can't hurt a community though because it isn't a tangible entity. I can hurt Peter, Paula and Perkins but I can't hurt towns and I did say before that seeking justice against someone who hurt you was just fine and dandy as long as it is proportional to the crime and you don't take up vigilantism like tying people to trees against their will.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

You don't have to look only to Indian tribes. You can look to the Australian aborigines. See, to us, democracy is a concept. It is a social/political concept that evolved out of not being satisfied with feudalism and monarchy, etc. But before all that, if you take any group of humans and put them in a situation where they have to work together to survive, they will have a direct democracy. The natural human in his natural environment will be happy, free, and democratic.

I think you are correct in thinking that the natural environment of man is happiness and freedom but why assume democratic? Does an individual increase their happiness by entering into a political arena that pits their rights against another and the winner is the one which has the most numbers? And what am I suppose to be looking at for the Australian aborigines? Are they the tribe that pre-date the Greeks in the application of democracy?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

In the example of the asshole who got tied to a tree, it took us over a week to come to an agreement on what to do with him. Some of the more compassionate ones wanted to free him and hope that he learned his lesson, some of the more angry people wanted to chop his pecker off, others wanted to escort him back to society and turn him in, others didn't want the police involved or even to know about the community, others wanted to keep him tied up and feed him psychedelic drugs in order for him to see how he hurt people etc. Everyone took turns talking, we listened to each other's concerns. We ended up including him in the council. It was very emotional and crazy. He ended up being so remorseful and it healed him. He told us his whole life story and admitted other shameful things he had done before but had not gotten caught. He actually grew a conscience through that week. The woman he violated ended up forgiving him and now he still lives there and now has a wife, kids, and grandkids now.

And you don't think that maybe he told you this because people were threatening to emasculate him, force him to consume hazardous drugs and the fact he was tied to a tree for a week? What a barbaric, uncivilized group of savages.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Anyway, instead of arguing a out Indians why don't you learn about their way of life? Their way of life used to be very Utopian. Especially in the Pacific Northwest!! They didn't even have to be nomadic or agriculture! They had so much leisure time, moreso than most other Indians in the New World.

Yea, you have to show me evidence of such profound leisure time and how they generally give to their 60's. If you want to live in such an environment, live long and prosper.

Dannon, if you can not tell already, this guy is not very informed on the subject. Even if he will not be open minded the rest of us would appreciate it if you'd at least stop this bickering match and compose yourself in a way easier for others to follow.

Laughing Man, please do some reading, at least before you carry around the moniker of a character who lived inside a library of ancient books. Srsly dude. The natives at your local walmart are nothing like ancient native american society. When a society is forced to join a different society (via migration, occupation, slavery or any other means) they automatically join the lowest wrung of that social ladder. They become the beggars and criminals. Due to environmental challenges and changes in diet, their health also deteriorates along with their longevity. Besides, it was not their bodies that sustained them. It waa the type of lifestyle they lead which was much healthier than our westernized one.

I honestly don't see I'm bothering to talk to you though, you obviously know everything and are only here to help guide us to your point of view. Such conversations are worthless.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Laughing Man, please do some reading, at least before you carry around the moniker of a character who lived inside a library of ancient books. Srsly dude.

How you perceive me, either correctly or incorrectly, is beyond my control. When you say "do something reading," what are you exactly do you mean? Do some reading on utopian societies? I'm pretty much doing my grad work on that. Well intellectual history, the history of ideas, but mostly with a focus on political ideas. Utopian societies are just a side hobby because they are usually formed because of political ideas. Or did you mean Native Americans? I asked for evidence for the assertion that Native Americans lived longer in their tribal society. Go back and check if you don't believe me. I mean that is the point of a discussion right? To provide evidence for assertions you make? Or are we taking the "I can say anything cause its the internet and if you don't believe me then you have to read...well something" routine?

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

The natives at your local walmart are nothing like ancient native american society.

It is really you who should be the individual with the moniker of withholding ancient knowledge. Natives Americans today aren't like the Native Americans of the Pre-20th century!

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

When a society is forced to join a different society (via migration, occupation, slavery or any other means) they automatically join the lowest wrung of that social ladder. They become the beggars and criminals.

True this can happen but you are leaping in thinking that life expectancy drops simply because of a new environment and honestly how do you hope to apply that to a people's who have been in such a society for generations. I can see alienation (not the Marxist sense) in the first generation which tries to conform to a different society but I don't really see an assimilation problem several generations down the line.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Due to environmental challenges and changes in diet, their health also deteriorates along with their longevity. Besides, it was not their bodies that sustained them. It waa the type of lifestyle they lead which was much healthier than our westernized one.

You'll have to show evidence for this assertion. I live down in South-West Florida and we have the Calusa tribe. They still hold ceremonies with their tradition food found in the Gulf coast.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I honestly don't see I'm bothering to talk to you though, you obviously know everything and are only here to help guide us to your point of view. Such conversations are worthless.

I think you over-inflate my image. If you want to see me like that then ok I guess.

YEs, thank you. And this discussion is about Utopia, not american indians. I was just pointing out that we need to look to our ancestors and our default way of life as a natural species. In order to live in harmony with this planet, which I think is a requirement for a Utopia, we need to re-learn and re-member that we are a part of nature just like the wolf and the deer and we need to become a part of the ecosystem from inside the ecosystem like the Indians were instead of studying the ecosystem as an outsider and making stupid decisions from an outsider's perspective of what the ecosystem needs.

Right now, in the town nearest me, they are planning on cutting down the last stand of old-growth forest in our watershed to expand the ski runs on the mountain. They are motivated by money, but none of the townsfolk want it done. There is no democracy happening here. Our drinking water will be affected, this space is also a bridge between two mountain ranges and the only place where the wildlife can cross, also it is the home for many endangered animals and animals endemic to this area. And it will all be gone in about a month. This is not Utopia. But it is capitalism. You see, the economy is a fake ecology. We make decisions in this modern world by how it will affect the economy but not how it will affect the environment. The environment, the ecology, is the real economy.

Building a house in a watershed is detrimental because in order to build a house you need to clear some land. You need to cut down some trees, which hold the rivers together and hold all the dirt, sediment, and toxic minerals out. Now, let us assume that you found a meadow in the watershed to build in and you didn't need to cut down any trees. You will still have to shit. And everything that is in the watershed ends up in the drinking water. YOu know how in places like India you have people bathing and washing their clothes in the river and downstream people depend on the water for drinking and they all get cholera or dysentery and die. If you have a road to your house that ends up in the water along with the exhaust and fumes and oil from your car. The reason why the life expectancy increased and the population increased was because people realized that you need clean water to drink. The population remained around the same in Europe until they learned about keeping people out of the watersheds. Then the population started increasing exponentially.

Who deserves to live in a fascist state? Those who would fuck over their neighbors for their own benefit. Those too lazy to do the right thing when the right thing is necessary. Those who want to profit off of their neighbor's misfortune. People who directly or indirectly require people to suffer for their own selfish benefit. People who don't stand up to their fascist government. Right now in the U.S.A. at least we live in a fascist government. And it is spreading globally. This whole economy collapse might just be a conspiracy to tie the last knot.

All societies were democratic and anarchistic before 5,000 years ago. The chief is not like our president. The chief is not a leader by any political power. He is a leader because he helps people come to their own decisions together and agree. He has no mandate, he is not elected, he doesn't inherit the position. He doesn't tell anybody what to do. If the people are undecided he is undecided. The decision making for the community or tribe is made by reaching a consensus. The consensus means that everybody agrees. It doesn't mean majority rule. It means everybody agrees. If your house is infested with cockroaches and you have no suitable food to eat your whole family will agree to move to a better place. It isn't that the Dad or Mom makes the decision. Even the children will agree. If there are no Buffalo or a neighboring tribe wants to kill you and take your food and they are stronger than you the whole tribe will agree to move. If the white people are coming and pushing you back and killing all the buffalo and infecting you with smallpox the people will reach a decision to either keep retreating or fight back. I don't see why it is so hard to believe that people can agree to survive when their survival is at stake. It isn't like they have to have a council about how many feathers are to be in somebody's hair.

So, socially and politically and ecologically many things need to change in order for a Utopia to exists out in the open. Right now if you build a Utopia out in the open the SWAT team and the ATF will firebomb your community and make up some bullshit reason. The changes that need to occur (but not enforced through corporal punishment, but by education) are that people need to know what is good for each other and the community, and need to be mature enough to choose the right thing, and people need to suck it up and get over their emotional baggage. Lots of emotional healing needs to take place, globally. People need to learn to communicate openly, people need to learn to listen without defense and speak without offense. People need to learn not to take trivial things personally. People need to banish the fliers.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

YEs, thank you. And this discussion is about Utopia, not american indians.

Well you said that your perfect society is a tribal one and used the example of American Indians, so don't act like your the victim of sidetracking.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I was just pointing out that we need to look to our ancestors and our default way of life as a natural species.

Why because it was the first way? Why assume that tribal living is the "natural" way? Why isn't today a "natural" way?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

In order to live in harmony with this planet, which I think is a requirement for a Utopia, we need to re-learn and re-member that we are a part of nature just like the wolf and the deer and we need to become a part of the ecosystem from inside the ecosystem like the Indians were instead of studying the ecosystem as an outsider and making stupid decisions from an outsider's perspective of what the ecosystem needs.

Why do you classify man as not being apart of nature now? You don't seem religious but I could be wrong. Well not according to Omnis but whatever. Man is a product of nature and he has a nature. We have evolved into who we are today, we still have a nature and we are still a product of nature. Do you think that because we don't live on straw mats or mud huts that we have lost who we are?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Right now, in the town nearest me, they are planning on cutting down the last stand of old-growth forest in our watershed to expand the ski runs on the mountain. They are motivated by money, but none of the townsfolk want it done.

Profit = happy people. Well unless they are given money by the government. If they were I would be protesting this along with you but not for the same reasons.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

There is no democracy happening here. Our drinking water will be affected, this space is also a bridge between two mountain ranges and the only place where the wildlife can cross, also it is the home for many endangered animals and animals endemic to this area. And it will all be gone in about a month. This is not Utopia. But it is capitalism. You see, the economy is a fake ecology. We make decisions in this modern world by how it will affect the economy but not how it will affect the environment. The environment, the ecology, is the real economy.

Honestly, unless you are drinking straight from the river I don't see how you can get disease-ridden water. Water is at least cleaned before it reaches your home. Which endangered animals live there? I wouldn't call capitalism an "ecology." It's not really a science. Well it could be if you consider social studies, social sciences. There is room to debate over that. I don't really see an "economy" in the environment basically because animals and rocks don't have goals nor ends or the ability to apply means towards ends. Again, room to debate if that is true with primates.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Building a house in a watershed is detrimental because in order to build a house you need to clear some land. You need to cut down some trees, which hold the rivers together and hold all the dirt, sediment, and toxic minerals out. Now, let us assume that you found a meadow in the watershed to build in and you didn't need to cut down any trees. You will still have to shit. And everything that is in the watershed ends up in the drinking water.

You know the Romans made this interesting invention. It's call "plumbing."

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

YOu know how in places like India you have people bathing and washing their clothes in the river and downstream people depend on the water for drinking and they all get cholera or dysentery and die. If you have a road to your house that ends up in the water along with the exhaust and fumes and oil from your car. The reason why the life expectancy increased and the population increased was because people realized that you need clean water to drink. The population remained around the same in Europe until they learned about keeping people out of the watersheds. Then the population started increasing exponentially.

Haha, yes, the population burst experienced in Europe was because of watershed trespassing enforcement. Come on, are you serious? If so at least so evidence for such a claim. Actual urban sanitation is a late 19th, early 20th century concept. Sanitation existed before then, with things like Roman plumbing, but mass populace sanitation is a fairly new concept in relative terms.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Who deserves to live in a fascist state? Those who would fuck over their neighbors for their own benefit. Those too lazy to do the right thing when the right thing is necessary. Those who want to profit off of their neighbor's misfortune. People who directly or indirectly require people to suffer for their own selfish benefit. People who don't stand up to their fascist government. Right now in the U.S.A. at least we live in a fascist government. And it is spreading globally. This whole economy collapse might just be a conspiracy to tie the last knot.

That is so ambiguous it could be anyone you deem.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

All societies were democratic and anarchistic before 5,000 years ago. The chief is not like our president. The chief is not a leader by any political power. He is a leader because he helps people come to their own decisions together and agree. He has no mandate, he is not elected, he doesn't inherit the position. He doesn't tell anybody what to do. If the people are undecided he is undecided. The decision making for the community or tribe is made by reaching a consensus. The consensus means that everybody agrees. It doesn't mean majority rule. It means everybody agrees. If your house is infested with cockroaches and you have no suitable food to eat your whole family will agree to move to a better place. It isn't that the Dad or Mom makes the decision. Even the children will agree. If there are no Buffalo or a neighboring tribe wants to kill you and take your food and they are stronger than you the whole tribe will agree to move. If the white people are coming and pushing you back and killing all the buffalo and infecting you with smallpox the people will reach a decision to either keep retreating or fight back. I don't see why it is so hard to believe that people can agree to survive when their survival is at stake. It isn't like they have to have a council about how many feathers are to be in somebody's hair.

Again, which tribe are you presenting? You are making this blanket statement about how all chiefs are such and such a way. At least narrow down who you are highlighting.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

So, socially and politically and ecologically many things need to change in order for a Utopia to exists out in the open. Right now if you build a Utopia out in the open the SWAT team and the ATF will firebomb your community and make up some bullshit reason.

Hey, we agree on something! This is weird...what do I do? Hooray?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The changes that need to occur (but not enforced through corporal punishment, but by education) are that people need to know what is good for each other and the community, and need to be mature enough to choose the right thing, and people need to suck it up and get over their emotional baggage. Lots of emotional healing needs to take place, globally. People need to learn to communicate openly, people need to learn to listen without defense and speak without offense. People need to learn not to take trivial things personally. People need to banish the fliers.

I think it's important to keep government as localized as possible for that very instance, and to keep everything unrelated to local government out of the hands of the higher orders of government. For starters lands should be subdivided into communities around 150 people, and these communities should have the final say over what's done with their property. I've been writing out a new constitution after considering all the tragic flaws in the US govt and it keeps donning on me democracy doesn't work on a large scale, you must always keep it localized. That's why I would have these Communities meet weekly and appoint a councilor to represent their opinion at Municipal Council, and they elect a rep for District Assembly and so forth until you get congress made up of people appointed by their various state republics. This way no one is getting elected via fundraisers and mob fervor, everyone is appointed by respected community members. Everyone is held accountable down the lines. When it comes to global affairs, people are pretty stupid. When it comes to their community, that's the best chance they have of making a smart decision.

But I think the biggest thing that would fix government is if people learned to start listening. It's a tragedy early colonists viewed Natives as savages with nothing to offer because we would have learned how to run government properly from the Sioux Nation. Elders of different villages would meet together in a circle and talk... and then wait for really long periods of time between speakers. Next time you're in an argument with someone, try waiting a good 10 minutes before speaking. Even that, you'll realize, will disarm the argument and turn it into a discussion as well as give you better composition over your thoughts, you know exactly what you want to say but furthermore you're responding better to the other person's approach. If our congress just gave it each other a little needful silence, our credit rating would be fine.

Please stop breaking arguments apart, it's so useless.

there's a difference between composing an argument and reacting to one. Rather than constantly reacting, how about compose your own counter argument instead?

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Please stop breaking arguments apart, it's so useless.

there's a difference between composing an argument and reacting to one. Rather than constantly reacting, how about compose your own counter argument instead?

I like to do line by line quotes so that people can't say I didn't address something. In order to react to an argument, at least on the internet, one would have to compose one. I mean I do retort to your comments thereby inferring that I am disseminating my composed thoughts which can be consider an "argument." Or are you referring to the fact that I am asking a lot of questioning in a manner in which you think is condescending? To that, I like to use the Socratic method. It makes people look foolish and it involves little effort because honestly with these internet discussions people are just going to blow them off anyway. I mean its not like either of you are going to present actual academic evidence to show the decreasing lifespan of pre-colonial and post-industrial Indians. Amirite?!

Freedom is the ability to lay naked, face-down on the hood of a cop's car and take a nap.
No compromise.

You absolutely have the freedom to do that.

As well as responsibility to face the consequences. It sounds like you're just concerned about your own absolute entitlement, not really freedom at all. Would this include freedom for cops to lay naked on the hood of your car as well?

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

You absolutely have the freedom to do that.

As well as responsibility to face the consequences. It sounds like you're just concerned about your own absolute entitlement, not really freedom at all. Would this include freedom for cops to lay naked on the hood of your car as well?

I think you guys, along with Hobbes, confuse ability and rights.

So we delayed them from cutting down the trees in the headwaters of our watershed. Usually the forest service controls the water rights and sells them to the highest bidder (usually Nestle or some other corporation to bottle drinking water) but our town is unique in that it has the right to control its own water. This controversy about expanding the ski resort when it cannot even afford to stay open as it is because there has been no snow for the past 10 years is really about taking away the town's right to control its own water. If you cut down the trees in the springs it reduces the amount of water retained and increases the sediment that fills up the reservoir. You see, a few towns away they had to dump 300,000 gallons of water from the reservoir because it was contaminated with mineral sediments and clogging the pipes. At the same time they asked the citizens to conserve water and not to water their lawns. This, when there was an abundance of water but the watershed was not taken care of. Every town should be able to have control over their own water.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Yea, you have to show me evidence of such profound leisure time and how they generally give to their 60's. If you want to live in such an environment, live long and prosper.

I just want to add this....

This is how you interpret life expectancy statistics. From wikipedia
In a hypothetical stationary population in which half the population dies before the age of five, but everybody else dies exactly at 70 years old, the life expectancy at age zero will be about 37 years, while about 25% of the population will be between the ages of 50 and 70

Our average life span, assuming you live past 5, has not increased very much at all since our records began. Agriculture made us live a fair bit longer.
Medicine, about 2 or 3 years more.

Infant deaths have dropped dramatically however. Which is why the numbers look so different when comparing older times to now.

All in all, hunter gatherers, assuming they lived past 5, would live only a slightly shorter life than someone does now, on average.

Pace-makers alone changed the curve dramatically. I was considering this too, but from a different vantage point. We have ways to keep the elderly alive, sure but it seems like outside the west the elderly are much healthier, over all.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Pace-makers alone changed the curve dramatically. I was considering this too, but from a different vantage point. We have ways to keep the elderly alive, sure but it seems like outside the west the elderly are much healthier, over all.

Also, those few extra years we keep them alive are filled with pain, discomfort, incontinence, dementia and many many many many other not nice things. So I sometimes wonder if it's even worth it.

I recently found this, and it seems relevant. I'm not trying to weigh in myself at the moment, but I thought I'd post this for consideration.