Thread: A (moral) question for Atheists

Originally Posted by Fechtel

Because if you eliminate God, the government, and the police, then there is nothing stopping this atheist from going ahead and abusing this man. Knowing he won't get caught, knowing he won't answer for his wrongdoings, and knowing there are absolutely no consequences for his actions, there is nothing to stop him.

As others have pointed out, the question is what there is to START someone abusing a helpless person. Most of us would experience at worst some suspicion at how the person came to be in their situation, and more likely a desire to help. The most natural reaction would be to seek company and assistance in figuring out what is happening. Someone with the inclination to "punch punch kick kick" who also believed in Christ would just whoop it up and repent later, or not bother repenting because they're already convinced they're going to Hell.

Indeed, someone with a strong group identification such as a fundamentalist or a nationalist would be more likely to harm or abandon the helpless person if perceiving them as being outside of the group. Re-read "The Good Samaritan" a couple of times; the point isn't just that it's nice to help people, but that religious belief has no bearing on the kind of situation you describe.

I always thought it was strange how some people thought atheists have no morals (I am NOT saying this is the case with the op, I don't know where they stand)... I am atheist. I would NOT abuse the man. Because I have felt pain, therefore I know what suffering is (to some extent at least, we all do). So why would I want to do that to another being? I wouldn't not abuse him for a fear of punishment in the next life. I wouldn't abuse him simply because I wouldn't want someone innocent to feel pain. I never understood this argument, ahaha.

The fear you are talking about is the same fear that drives Christians to harass and harm people who are gay. That fear is clearly driving even normal people to do horrible things, and so that fear of god is morally wrong.

Why would I need to abuse him? He's tied up -- I can just leave him there and he'll die on his own.

I love how you asked a question, people gave you an answer (empathy) and as you realized that your argument (that humans are heartless monsters) fell flat to the ground, you basically said that empathy doesn't count. This is the weakest form of argumentation there is, and you are a terrible person for doing that.
It's basically the same as saying "Name one black president" and when someone says "Barack Obama", you say "He doesn't count!". It makes no fucking sense.

Originally Posted by Marvo

I love how you asked a question, people gave you an answer (empathy) and as you realized that your argument (that humans are heartless monsters) fell flat to the ground, you basically said that empathy doesn't count. This is the weakest form of argumentation there is, and you are a terrible person for doing that.
It's basically the same as saying "Name one black president" and when someone says "Barack Obama", you say "He doesn't count!". It makes no fucking sense.

What I find more disturbing is that the implication is that people such as the OP only don't do these things because of a voice in their heads and a lack of opportunity.

Your entire premise is that the DEFAULT position is that if we saw someone tied to a tree and helpless, we'd go abuse him. Why? What justification do you have to make that claim? What justification do you have for the ridiculous assertion that compassion isn't natural? While there are plenty of good answers to your question in this thread, the truth is, your question is a meaningless straw man.

It's a part of religious indoctrination - they make the flock believe that by nature humans are immoral degenerates and it's only through God they can be redeemed, and then everyone has another fear-based reason to keep on believing. Not only that, but it creates a strong "we're better than them" divide. And, thinking about it, I can see another important reason for it now too - if someone does start to slip in their faith they'll be afraid to admit it to their fellows because then THEY become the degenerate miscreants everyone is so righteously finger-wagging at. It's ingenious really - once you've got em believing it you just keep shoveling fear into the engine and the fires go higher and higher. After everybody is all stoked up then even when somebody does begin to see through the dogma they're afraid to say anything unless they can get away from the flock.

I have nothing against people who are religious, but this kind of indoctrination is just sickening. And the really insidious thing about it - I'll bet many of the reverends etc who spread this stuff don't even realize how they were manipulated into manipulating the masses through fear and hatred. They actually believe they're doing something good.

Originally Posted by Fechtel

Scenario:

You are on a deserted island where there is no police, no law, and no consequences for your actions. There is also a helpless man who is tied up.

Question:

What is stopping you from abusing this man?

My own mind?

Umm... because I wouldn't want to? Because I'd feel bad for him if he were abused and would desire to help him?

Is this OP serious? I fucking hope not, but it keeps seeming more and more like people are terrible. Is religion really all that keeps some people from harming others?

your translucent projection is touching...really....

So, your only motivation to do "good" is because you will be punished for doing "bad"...lolz...typical christian...What a mighty god you serve...

Truth is you are harming people everyday with your hateful vitriol. You create your god and he tortures people for eternity. This is a direct reflection of your own psyche's environment.

Personally, I would be looking for whatever tied this person up in the first place. After all, whoever did that to him will probably not hesitate to do the same to me. Most people identify with one in suffering. Unless you are a masochistic christian, in which case you glory in the bloody gore of the cross.....mofos...

If I'm stuck on an island and I see someone tied up, my first thought would be- 'thank god, another person.' Isolation is very unhealthy. I wouldn't be anymore inclined to abuse that person than I would be to burn down the only coconut tree for the maniacal thrill it would give me.

Originally Posted by Fechtel

Punch punch...
Kick kick...
Cut cut...

Oh god this made me laugh so hard...and then Darkmatters' response...

I mean, you suggest that there's nothing stopping us from doing this, but I can't even see what the motive would be to abuse the man in the first place. Surely without this great moral guidance we apparently lack we'd just ignore him? Do you have some crazy notion that physically abusing people actually gives pleasure?

Originally Posted by Fechtel

If I were an atheist, there would be nothing to stop me from having a little fun. If I know that I won't be punished, why not abuse him?

I'm sure you're being facetious, but it's interesting that you would label torturing a helpless man as "fun." I'm not psychoanalyzing you, as in I don't think you're implying that deep down you think such an activity would be fun. Rather you imply that atheists are so devoid of any moral compass that they would consider it "fun."

Which is, of course, fucking ridiculous.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

I'm sure you're being facetious, but it's interesting that you would label torturing a helpless man as "fun." I'm not psychoanalyzing you, as in I don't think you're implying that deep down you think such an activity would be fun. Rather you imply that atheists are so devoid of any moral compass that they would consider it "fun."

Which is, of course, fucking ridiculous.

I never implied that ONLY atheists have these kinds of desires. I think it is deep inside in all of us, no matter what religion! Sometimes we may think we're unable to commit certain acts, but when given the opportunity, knowing there are absolutely no consequences... our deepest desires float right to the top.

I have a big respect for atheists who do not mock God, or insult/offend Christians. Not sure if I'm allowed to post links, but freeratio.org is a perfect example of intelligent discussion between atheists and theists.

No insults, no mocking, but respectful and rational discussion. Unfortunately I can't say the same for certain atheists on this forum who make threads with the sole purpose to offend Christians (aka Jesus of Suburbia).

In any case, I never meant to say that atheists are the only ones who might have violent desires. I hope I made that clear now.

Originally Posted by Fechtel

I never implied that ONLY atheists have these kinds of desires. I think it is deep inside in all of us, no matter what religion! Sometimes we may think we're unable to commit certain acts, but when given the opportunity, knowing there are absolutely no consequences... our deepest desires float right to the top.

If that's honestly part of your deepest desires then I think that not only do you need severe help, but you also need to be removed from society for our protection and benefit.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

If that's honestly part of your deepest desires then I think that not only do you need severe help, but you also need to be removed from society for our protection and benefit.

I don't need help, but it's funny that you say this. I have had many Muslims tell me that I need help, yet I'm not the one who supports flying planes into buildings.

I believe in punishment. Pure and simple. My desires are NOT towards innocent people, but only those who are evil and/or demon-posessed.

Saddam Hussein was known for presiding over torture and execution. He caused people so much pain and suffering, yet he left this world without any pain and suffering. The only pain he felt was perhaps 3 - 5 seconds during his execution by hanging.

If he had been tortured, then this would be the justice he deserves. Drag it out as long as possible!

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

It's a part of religious indoctrination - they make the flock believe that by nature humans are immoral degenerates and it's only through God they can be redeemed, and then everyone has another fear-based reason to keep on believing. Not only that, but it creates a strong "we're better than them" divide. And, thinking about it, I can see another important reason for it now too - if someone does start to slip in their faith they'll be afraid to admit it to their fellows because then THEY become the degenerate miscreants everyone is so righteously finger-wagging at. It's ingenious really - once you've got em believing it you just keep shoveling fear into the engine and the fires go higher and higher. After everybody is all stoked up then even when somebody does begin to see through the dogma they're afraid to say anything unless they can get away from the flock.

Side effects include witch hunts and the Spanish inquisition.

I think Fechtel probably suffers from a mild case of OCD. Specifically obsessions that makes her think of horrible thoughts, which she fears she might do if it wasn't for the power of her religion. However, in reality people suffering from OCD do not ever commit the horrible things they think, and the fear that they might do it is a part of the disorder. At least that seems more likely to me, than her being an actual psychopath.

In fact I still remember some story about a priest who used to have evil thoughts and no matter what he did he could not get rid of them, and even tried to beat the thoughts out of his mind and really hurt himself doing it. He thought they came from the devil and feared that just by thinking them it could turn him from god. I think in that story he might of been suffering from OCD but wasn't even aware of it.

I do not believe that deep down people have these bad desires. I just see no evidence of that being true and most people never have those feelings. In the case of OCD people fear they have those desires, but its a mental condition that creates that fear and deep down they wouldn't follow through no matter what the circumstance is.

Originally Posted by Fechtel

I have had many Muslims tell me that I need help, yet I'm not the one who supports flying planes into buildings.

Originally Posted by Fechtel

If he had been tortured, then this would be the justice he deserves. Drag it out as long as possible!

What Would Jesus Do?

No really, what would Jesus do?

I don't have the problem you describe.

I don't suffer from ANYTHING.

^So what's with this creepy-ass post? What do you find funny about torture?

Originally Posted by Fechtel

Punch punch...
Kick kick...
Cut cut...

Originally Posted by Fechtel

I don't need help, but it's funny that you say this. I have had many Muslims tell me that I need help, yet I'm not the one who supports flying planes into buildings.

This assumes that all Muslims support terrorism. I think you'll find the opposite is true. Fallacy of composition says hello.

Originally Posted by Goliad

^So what's with this creepy-ass post? What do you find funny about torture?

There is nothing funny about it if it happens to an innocent person.

But if it happened to let's say, Mahmoud Ahmedinejad or Bashar al-Assad, then I would find it funny. I wouldn't mind watching, or even participating. The same goes for Hitler, if he were alive today that is.

His hate is responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent men women and children.

That's why "killed in action" is not good enough. Something gross needs to be done to them!